248 replies to this topic

[bigbangbaby]

Attendees used to have the option to send payment by mail. Guess it’s gotten too overrun for that. Being oversubscribed with mail-in registrations would be more difficult to sort out, and you’d have to return payment to those who were too late. 

[Ac2aj]

Thanks Jim. For Black Forest I make sure to register as soon as it opens. I remember years ago you could register the day before the event and still get tickets. You're right they are both very popular now. It's like concert tickets.

Brian

[Richie2shoes]

Based on how fast things were selling last year, I set a reminder for 4:00 and got a ticket.  Pretty soon they'll have to do a raffle.  Does BFSP still do the mail in option first?  They might not even have to do online sales.

[Jim Davis]

Attendees used to have the option to send payment by mail. Guess it’s gotten too overrun for that. Being oversubscribed with mail-in registrations would be more difficult to sort out, and you’d have to return payment to those who were too late. 

Yes, it has become hard to handle. We also have fewer volunteers to manage it than we did in the past.

[Chuck99]

Jim, 

My wife and I got on the wait list after just missing getting our tickets at 4:55 PM. How does the wait list work?

Chuck 

Edited by Chuck99, 19 March 2024 - 04:46 AM.

[George N]

I used to go but driving 6 hours for sucker holes got tiring. I'm glad they sold out before I made a late night decision I'd regret. I'll do Black Forest though. A much better event.

Brian

First - I got a CSSP '24 ticket, so will be back again - I hope. The only CSSP I've missed in over 20 years was the one that 'featured' heavy rain and even hail all weekend. A friend did go - and has pic's of a small group sinking in the mud!  

 

On the other hand - I've only been to Black Forest about 4 times - including last year and have never liked it as well as CSSP. While I hope to attend BFSP again sometime - this year I won't be going - as I'll be living at my camp in the Adirondacks (SQM = 21.8).

 

Remember - BFSP is only 2 nights, while CSSP is 3. It does have longer nights - but then I'm mostly a 'galaxy guy' - and the Park is a great place to observe/image 'spring galaxy season', with Milky Way up late.

 

Last year - BFSP 'featured' - over-crowding - I don't care what they say, there were more than 400 people on that field. The food vendor was totally awful. I stayed 4 nights, starting Thursday, and while the sky was often clear, it was "bad smoke to just some smoke" the entire time. And then on Sunday night some 'crazy public guy' tried driving off the field at around midnight - didn't know how to open the gate, so tried to drive down the pedestrian path and hit a green barrier tube, crashed - state police and a wrecker showed up - bright lights for at least an hour. At least I using my 20" Dob to hunt bright globulars in the South, so the lights didn't bother me. Bottom Line: You will have a little easier time getting BFSP 2024 tickets because - I can't go, another frequent observer/friend who goes often just died from cancer, and at 6 others I know say they won't return after the 2024 crowding and poor food (many local restaurants closed, some ran out of food!). They will be looking for going to Cherry Springs the nights before or after BFSP.

 

Anyway - I'll be there for CSSP '24 with my ticket! I may be there dark period in May (but stuck in eclipse traffic for the April dark period). That leaves May, July (August = Stellafane) and October for me at Cherry Springs - beyond CSSP. ...still, I got a 2024 Galaxy Pass.

[Phillip Creed]

Selling out in 55 minutes is both impressive and depressing.

Clear Skies,

Phil

[Jim Davis]

Selling out in 55 minutes is both impressive and depressing.

Clear Skies,

Phil

It's a pain for us, too. Now we have to deal with all the complaints.

[bobclark86]

It's a pain for us, too. Now we have to deal with all the complaints.

Thank you for the effort you put in, even if I did miss out on a ticket. I'm sure it's a giant PITA to organize something like this. 

[dawnpatrol]

It's a pain for us, too. Now we have to deal with all the complaints.

It's a thankless job and while I'm disappointed that I missed out, having logged in at 5PM ET, I'm not going to complain. The process was fair and there was plenty of notice about when ticket sales would open up. I look forward to seeing the post CSSP reports and I hope it's great weather for all of the nights.

[JimB1]

 

Last year - BFSP 'featured' - over-crowding - I don't care what they say, there were more than 400 people on that field. The food vendor was totally awful. I stayed 4 nights, starting Thursday, and while the sky was often clear, it was "bad smoke to just some smoke" the entire time. And then on Sunday night some 'crazy public guy' tried driving off the field at around midnight - didn't know how to open the gate, so tried to drive down the pedestrian path and hit a green barrier tube, crashed - state police and a wrecker showed up - bright lights for at least an hour. At least I using my 20" Dob to hunt bright globulars in the South, so the lights didn't bother me .

Didn’t something similar happen at Cherry Springs last year? I remember someone cutting out in the middle of the night and lighting up the field with headlights… might have been the year before…

Edited by JimB1, 20 March 2024 - 06:29 AM.

[Ac2aj]

Both events were definitely better years ago. I think there are a lot of campers (not tents) and rv's now. It takes up a lot of space. I definitely think that the campers and Rv's should be restricted to one part of the field and tents everywhere else. I know people are set to the spots they like so I'm sure they could never do that. I feel that there is a new generation of people that come that are just inconsiderate of others and don't know the rules of star parties.

Edited by Ac2aj, 20 March 2024 - 09:18 AM.

[Phillip Creed]

I suppose if I wanted to go to CSSP that weekend, I would just get a room in nearby Coudersport and take my chances imaging in the public section of the park that night.  That's still a pretty big spot, albeit with much more propensity for wayward lighting.

That, or go in July or August if the same thing ticket blitzkrieg happens for BFSP.

Honestly, it's why I generally prefer Calhoun vs. CSSP.  Because the weather around NE Ohio is so unpredictable, I often prefer to reserve long drives for known clear nights; wait for the iron to get hot before striking.  CSSP isn't set up to be anywhere near as conducive to that as Calhoun County Park, though in fairness CSSP has a much longer established history and draws from much bigger East Coast cities.

Clear Skies,

Phil

Edited by Phillip Creed, 20 March 2024 - 10:00 AM.

[peleuba]

Both events were definitely better years ago. I think there are a lot of campers (not tents) and rv's now. It takes up a lot of space. I definitely think that the campers and Rv's should be restricted to one part of the field and tents everywhere else. I know people are set to the spots they like so I'm sure they could never do that. I feel that there is a new generation of people that come that are just inconsiderate of others and don't know the rules of star parties.

 

I appreciate your comments and take your opinion and viewpoints seriously.  I agree with much of what you wrote.   

 

My first introduction to Cherry Springs was in the mid-1990's before it was popular.  I had viewed some discussion on an email list where some members of a local astronomy club in the Scranton-Wilkes barre area of PA were trading messages about Potter County, PA.  I decided to check it out and on my first trip met Gary Honis who was credited with "discovering" Cherry Springs as a place to do visual astronomy.  Gary sadly passed away a few months back after a long illness.

 

In any event, back then, there were no bathrooms other then a single small "shed" with pit toilets; there were no "roads" that now divide the observing field into sections only a single loop; there were no power poles providing electricity to the field.  And, the actual observing field was only about ⅔ as large as it is now.  But the skies were very dark - noticeably darker then today.

 

I have been to every Black Forest Star Party since the first one in 1999; and most every Cherry Springs Star Party - though, after last year's Cherry Springs Star Party, I've decided not to attend year.  I am also on the Cherry Springs Dark Sky Fund Board of Directors.  I am invested in the success of Cherry Springs State Park with time and monetary donations as well as spending a fair amount of money in the local community when I am in Potter County.  It is imperative that we as astronomers support local businesses when we're there.  Cherry Springs will only stay dark if the locals buy into what the astronomers mean for the community.    

 

Anyway, the first couple of Black Forest Star Parties were heavily attended - probably close to 750 (or more) attendees.  This was in 1999, 2000, 2001 when there were few RV's and campers - everyone had a tent back then.  It was quite crowded and extremely dense with people.  And it seemed, at least to me, folks were better behaved back then.   Nowadays,  attendance is capped at ~475 registrations.

 

Today, the hobby has shifted to imaging.  No longer does the big Dobsonian rule the observing field like they did a decade ago.  And, since 2019, there has been a huge influx of people who are new to the hobby - some have never put an eyepiece in a telescope.  They use a telescope as a lens for their cameras.  Look around the observing field during the day - its filled astrophotographers.  You see these tiny refractors on inexpensive Chinese mounts with these red ZWO cameras.  These newer folk have no clue about star party rules and etiquette nor how their actions affect the others around them.  Some even pass themselves off as YouTube "content creators" and are busy filming every move they make on the observing field.  Well, whatever.

 

To you're point, today there are many more campers and RVs then tents.  So it may be that the tenting community would be best served if they set up in a designated area.  There would be no large RV's to block the view and those tenting would not have to share power pedestals with the the RV crowd.  Along the same lines, there is a movement afoot to segregate the imagers who insist on lighting up their area with forehead worn bright red headlamps and these strings of "Christmas light" red LED's marking their turf.

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Edited by peleuba, 22 March 2024 - 07:59 AM.

[George9]

The facilities are definitely better than decades ago, and I like effort to spread the word about astronomy with the airfield conversion.

 

The only thing I really worry about is the longterm light pollution. Luckily it is currently mild and mostly in the north. I miss spending two hours (used to be 2-4am) on the airfield with nothing else around and watching dim stars set on the horizon. (Then that crazy inn opened to the west with all-night lights in their trees.)

 

For the sign up, I hate lotteries, but there may be no choice. I got my ticket in the first few minutes. At first Evenbrite would not load completely. After a couple of minutes, I switched browsers and I got a screen; maybe it was the browser or just repeated tries. It will likely be more chaotic next year.

 

For a lottery, there is no way to judge who really wants a ticket versus who is just going in for the heck of it and may not show up. In other contexts, they sometimes split the total where you can pay more for a guaranteed spot or just go for the lottery for the inexpensive spot. Others find things for people to volunteer to help out on, and those people get guaranteed spots, and the rest are in the lottery.

 

George

[bigbangbaby]

Another thing you could do is limit the number of tickets per person if no such limits now exists.

Edited by bigbangbaby, 21 March 2024 - 06:02 PM.

[Navy Chief]

The facilities are definitely better than decades ago, and I like effort to spread the word about astronomy with the airfield conversion.

 

The only thing I really worry about is the longterm light pollution. Luckily it is currently mild and mostly in the north. I miss spending two hours (used to be 2-4am) on the airfield with nothing else around and watching dim stars set on the horizon. (Then that crazy inn opened to the west with all-night lights in their trees.)

 

For the sign up, I hate lotteries, but there may be no choice. I got my ticket in the first few minutes. At first Evenbrite would not load completely. After a couple of minutes, I switched browsers and I got a screen; maybe it was the browser or just repeated tries. It will likely be more chaotic next year.

 

For a lottery, there is no way to judge who really wants a ticket versus who is just going in for the heck of it and may not show up. In other contexts, they sometimes split the total where you can pay more for a guaranteed spot or just go for the lottery for the inexpensive spot. Others find things for people to volunteer to help out on, and those people get guaranteed spots, and the rest are in the lottery.

 

George

The idea of people willing to volunteer a few hours for early access tickets is the way to go. I would have been more than happy to donate 4 hours of my time in return for the opportunity to buy a ticket in advance. I had to work when the tickets went on sale (as I am sure if is true of many many others) so I had zero chance of getting a ticket with them selling out in less than an hour.

[Jim Davis]

Another thing you could do is limit the number of tickets per person if no such limits now exists.

There is a limit per order. It is 5.

[Jim Davis]

Key thing with a star party. Be aware of those around you, and be aware of the impact of your actions on others. Be kind.

[Phillip Creed]

The only thing I really worry about is the longterm light pollution. Luckily it is currently mild and mostly in the north. I miss spending two hours (used to be 2-4am) on the airfield with nothing else around and watching dim stars set on the horizon. (Then that crazy inn opened to the west with all-night lights in their trees.)

Where on the map is that inn, and how bad is the lighting from the airfield if that's where you have to set up?  Is there anyplace on the public side of 44 where you can set up and not see it?

Sorry for all the questions, but if a 55-minute sellout becomes the norm the public side of 44 might be my only shot at CSSP in the coming years.

Clear Skies,

Phil

[Navy Chief]

Where on the map is that inn, and how bad is the lighting from the airfield if that's where you have to set up?  Is there anyplace on the public side of 44 where you can set up and not see it?

Sorry for all the questions, but if a 55-minute sellout becomes the norm the public side of 44 might be my only shot at CSSP in the coming years.

Clear Skies,

Phil

Keep in mind that if you want to observer at Cherry Springs any other time of the year they are open, it is not exclusive to the Star Party Weekend.
https://www.dcnr.pa....Stargazing.aspx

[George9]

Where on the map is that inn, and how bad is the lighting from the airfield if that's where you have to set up?  Is there anyplace on the public side of 44 where you can set up and not see it?

Sorry for all the questions, but if a 55-minute sellout becomes the norm the public side of 44 might be my only shot at CSSP in the coming years.

Clear Skies,

Phil

Sorry to scare you. Don't worry about the inn. The berm that blocks the public parking lot from the public viewing site also blocks that property.

 

To be clear, that property did not affect the star party field. It was only if you were on the old (pre-berm) airfield and looking west. I am not sure it is even still active. It did not light up the sky. It was just a blemish in an otherwise perfect view, 360 degrees with a low horizon and no lights or glow.

 

The property was on 44, just after the airfield ended on the west, on the north side of the street.

 

George

[George N]

Sorry to scare you. Don't worry about the inn. The berm that blocks the public parking lot from the public viewing site also blocks that property.

 

To be clear, that property did not affect the star party field. It was only if you were on the old (pre-berm) airfield and looking west. I am not sure it is even still active. It did not light up the sky. It was just a blemish in an otherwise perfect view, 360 degrees with a low horizon and no lights or glow.

 

The property was on 44, just after the airfield ended on the west, on the north side of the street.

 

George

I've never been over on the "North Side" at night -- but I'm pretty sure that 'the inn' is now a sub-property of one of the local 'dark sky friendly' B&B's. I know that there is a place a half-mile West of the Park - easy walk - with rooms for rent with 'dark sky' as a theme. I've thought of renting a room there (not at a star party) in say November - someplace my wife would be happy after say midnight. I could walk over, leaving 'everything' on the field. Alas -- it seems most dark sky 10 day periods for the next 100 years are already 'reserved' - some rooms still available for full moon!  

 

Can you drive out on the old airfield - I mean the Eastern endddd? It's huge - but nothing out there for support - would be like being in 'the wilderness'.

Edited by George N, 22 March 2024 - 02:54 PM.

[Phillip Creed]

I wouldn't mind going out to the airfield, putting in a good 4-6 hours' worth, and then heading back to a hotel in Coudersport.

I haven't had a good run when it comes to comfortable temps at CSSP.  Ironically, the warmest night I've been there was in *May* of 2001.

Clear Skies,

Phil

[George N]

.....

To you're point, today there are many more campers and RVs then tents.  So it may be that the tenting community would be best served if they set up in a designated area.  There would be no large RV's to block the view and those tenting would not have to share power pedestals with the the RV crowd.  Along the same lines, there is a movement afoot to segregate the imagers who insist on lighting up their area with forehead worn bright red headlamps and these strings of "Christmas light" red LED's marking their turf.

OK -- Imagers get their area - which = 80% of the field, since I believe 'their' numbers are approaching that level (I've been both an imager and visual observer since the late 1950's - so I have no axe to grind here. Far be it from me to tell others how to enjoy 'astronomy' or the night sky - and if I did 'tell them" - they wouldn't listen anyway....).

 

Where do the EAA guys set up? In 'no man's land'?  

 

I suppose that a part of the "northside airfield" could be 'developed' into an "RV Park" - or the Park could just enforce the existing "set up on the edge of the field" rules. The 'beyond the vendor tent' area could be 'developed' too. 

 

Perhaps the two-star party clubs need to have people (digitally) sign an agreement to follow "the rules" - and first-time attendees must agree to attend a 45-minute presentation on "the rules" (complete with 'don't do this' examples like that photo of the "light ropes" around scopes).

 

But - if you are expecting a pristine dark-sky observing/imaging experience, with no interference from 'others' -- a star party with hundreds of attendees (some very hopefully newbies seeing dark sky for the first time) - isn't the place. You need a private observing area - owned or rented.