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12P/Pons-Brooks and it's rotating core

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#1 Janval

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Posted 10 March 2024 - 03:38 PM

I've shot a fair few images of 12P the past week despite fighting both sunsets and aruora borealis. I decided to do some processing on my latest image to highlight the core itself, not the tail as per usual. What revealed itself was quite surprising as I pulled out the rotating core and structures surrounding the nucleus. The image itself is cropped quite a bit due to this. 

Astrobin: https://www.astrobin.com/eqxd1j/B/
 

12P/Pons-Brooks - Rotating core colorized
12/Pons-Brooks - Rotating core luminance

I still haven't fully processed the entire image, and I'd like to have another go at the core as well. But I thought this was quite unique as far as comet images go.

The image is fully processed in Pixinsight, I've been told to check out wavelets in Registax in order to produce better detailed structures but I haven't gotten any decent results with that so far. If anyone has done any processing like this before I'd be happy to get some insight into the possibility of using wavelets. I think Pixinsight has their own wavelet scripts but I haven't used it before.


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#2 Mirzam

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Posted 10 March 2024 - 07:03 PM

The “Pinwheel”.


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#3 David Knisely

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Posted 10 March 2024 - 11:08 PM

This reminds me a bit of what Comet Hale-Bopp did, as at one point, it had a sort of spiral structure in its inner coma that was caught in a number of images (including the Hubble Space Telescope) but not mine.  I was looking for a somewhat wider view:

 

HALEBOPP1procSmaller.JPG


Edited by David Knisely, 10 March 2024 - 11:15 PM.

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#4 Janval

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Posted 11 March 2024 - 03:17 AM

I've been looking into all my data sets so far and I can see the same relative rotation in all the images, so I'll work on getting some sort of animation with dates/locations etc done. 


For those interested, here's another observation that also confirms the rotation:
https://spaceweather...pload_id=203962



#5 stanislas-jean

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Posted 11 March 2024 - 06:23 AM

Hi,

Interresting, but what was the working conditions in use?

Stanislas-Jean



#6 Janval

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Posted 12 March 2024 - 08:52 AM

For those interested the image has now been featured here: https://spaceweather.com/ and has been posted in the APOD focus groups by their editors.

 

Hi,

Interresting, but what was the working conditions in use?

Stanislas-Jean

Hi,

I take it that you're thinking about the processing? It's a bit of a lengthy process but all done in Pixinsight with careful stretching, use of various masks, HDR techniques and some wavelet sharpening. I've re-visited all of my 12P images from the last week and seen the same details with some variation day by day now. But it's not a straight forward process that can be applied to each image as is, it needs adjustments for each data set. 

The images posted here though had exceptional good data though, so I didn't get an equal amount of detail from all the images. This is probably a seeing issue as it was very good on the given day.


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#7 Janval

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Posted 12 March 2024 - 04:52 PM

 A small impro comparison of the rotation and possible eruptions is now posted in the description of the original image: https://www.astrobin.com/eqxd1j/B/
 

12P/Pons-Brooks core rotation timelapse

 



#8 twoc

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Posted 12 March 2024 - 05:03 PM

Neat! If I remember right the same phenomena was seen in Neowise. Looks like others have also spotted it in 12P (from Alfons Diepvens: https://www.astronom...new/new18a.html).

 

Did you use solely the Larson-Sekanina tool in Pixinsight? If not I am curious to see what the output looks like.



#9 stanislas-jean

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 06:45 AM

Hi,

This procedure at priori is setting questions.

When comparing with "classic" photos, it is difficult to make correlations between the data.

 

For example, one my serie captured on last 10th march (a photo given here is of the same date).

 

resized_12P 10.03.24 3min.jpg

resized_12P 10.03.24 3minc.jpg

 

The core is proheminent, big, surely not the core itself, but presents a saturated area on the chipset, it's a dense hood occulting the core, but comparing the photos this is not probable.

The curls showed by the other photo may be occulted by the core halo, very bright.

But discontinuities should be noted into the head. There is no.

On an other hand, BAA section evaluated the rotation period of the core being around 2 weeks (from my memory). Performed by brightness variation of the core when the comet was not at the brightnesses of to-day.

This mean if we base rotation of the core with those curls, taking into account the supposed period rotation, from night to night we should observe the same curls, that is not.

Conclusion is that the data must be coherent somewhere from a processus acquisition to an other.

Just want to understand what is going on the physical evolution of the comet, not the validity of such software or an other.

Coloration of the tail is an other topic, blue green of the core hood and the head, reddish at the tail. This mean about the nature of the materials also in cause.

From my opinion, these photo set more questions than answers.

May be comet specialists can answer more clearly.

Good skies.

Stanislas-Jean

 

 


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#10 Janval

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 02:02 PM

Neat! If I remember right the same phenomena was seen in Neowise. Looks like others have also spotted it in 12P (from Alfons Diepvens: https://www.astronom...new/new18a.html).

 

Did you use solely the Larson-Sekanina tool in Pixinsight? If not I am curious to see what the output looks like.

I've been reading up on that but I have yet to do anything more with it as of now. I will get to it as soon as I can and add the results to the rest.


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#11 Janval

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Posted 13 March 2024 - 02:15 PM

Hi,

This procedure at priori is setting questions.

When comparing with "classic" photos, it is difficult to make correlations between the data.

 

For example, one my serie captured on last 10th march (a photo given here is of the same date).

 

attachicon.gif resized_12P 10.03.24 3min.jpg

attachicon.gif resized_12P 10.03.24 3minc.jpg

 

The core is proheminent, big, surely not the core itself, but presents a saturated area on the chipset, it's a dense hood occulting the core, but comparing the photos this is not probable.

The curls showed by the other photo may be occulted by the core halo, very bright.

But discontinuities should be noted into the head. There is no.

On an other hand, BAA section evaluated the rotation period of the core being around 2 weeks (from my memory). Performed by brightness variation of the core when the comet was not at the brightnesses of to-day.

This mean if we base rotation of the core with those curls, taking into account the supposed period rotation, from night to night we should observe the same curls, that is not.

Conclusion is that the data must be coherent somewhere from a processus acquisition to an other.

Just want to understand what is going on the physical evolution of the comet, not the validity of such software or an other.

Coloration of the tail is an other topic, blue green of the core hood and the head, reddish at the tail. This mean about the nature of the materials also in cause.

From my opinion, these photo set more questions than answers.

May be comet specialists can answer more clearly.

Good skies.

Stanislas-Jean

Hi,

Nothing in my linear data is saturated except for the tiny core itself, otherwise it would have been impossible to reveal any features within the coma. Do you have any references for these calculations? I would be interested in reading into them myself. As far as I knew the comet rotated fully in about 57 hours +\-, but how much it slows down when nearing the sun I do not know. This would correlate pretty well with the observations made between the 6th and 8th of March, but also keep in mind that the comet has been imaged at approximately the same time window each time, which might affect the results. But the only way to dig deeper into this is with more observations, preferrably at higher altitudes perhaps and with a larger window of opportunity.

I've been in touch with both spaceweather.com and BAA as well as others now as I'm neither a scientist or a professional astronomer. I only make observations and found this intersting, as well as all I've been in contact with has as well. The validity is no longer in question as far as I'm concerned as others have jumped on the bandwagon and been able to extract similar details themselves, BAA's own members as well have been making such obvservations. So the spirals are undisputed. I think the discussion is rather about whether or not there is cryovolcanic activity on this particular comet.

As for the colors I've applied the same processing to both the luminance and color image, it wouldn't make much sense to me to process luminance this way while over-exposing/saturating the color data. What remains may tell something about the materials, my uneducated guess is that it seems to be dust as it seems to separate from the green volatile materials due to different reactions to the solar wind. But it's just a guess from my end, I don't know how to differentiate dust from other volatiles. I leave that up to the professionals who might be interested in having a look so far.



#12 han.k

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 01:16 AM

Part of the dust streams are curled and part of the dust streams leave the comet in a straight line. How is this physically possible?



#13 pejorde

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 03:26 AM

Part of the dust streams are curled and part of the dust streams leave the comet in a straight line. How is this physically possible?

While the curls may be dust, the straight tail consists of ionized gas or plasma. Being charged, the gas interacts with the solar wind differently from the dust. That's why comets often have two tails, a yellowish often broad dust tail and a blue, straight ion tail. See e.g. the Hale Bopp picture in post #3 for a dramatic example. 12P has a dust tail too, but faint. 

 

Regards,

Per Erik


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#14 han.k

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 05:45 AM

Neat! If I remember right the same phenomena was seen in Neowise. Looks like others have also spotted it in 12P (from Alfons Diepvens: https://www.astronom...new/new18a.html).

 

Did you use solely the Larson-Sekanina tool in Pixinsight? If not I am curious to see what the output looks like.

These images show the stars streaks going two ways.The negative black stars go in the opposite direction as the white stars So it looks like part of the images were flipped and not corrected for the stacking. How can we trust then the comet image as reality since it is a blend of positive and flipped negative images?

 

 

While the curls may be dust, the straight tail consists of ionized gas or plasma. Being charged, the gas interacts with the solar wind differently from the dust. That's why comets often have two tails, a yellowish often broad dust tail and a blue, straight ion tail. See e.g. the Hale Bopp picture in post #3 for a dramatic example. 12P has a dust tail too, but faint. 

 

Regards,

Per Erik

Hmm. Both the dust and gas tail of Hale Bopp bent away from the comet nucleus , driven by the Sun. Only the gas tail moves away at a different angle. So both streams are effected and separate slowly. They must start from the same location of the comet nucleus, assuming the comet is a homogenous dirty snowball.  So it does not explain my initial observation.
 

Hubble telescope has made images of comet ISON. Siding Spring and Hale Bopp. There is no significant vortex visible. Same for images made by the Rosetta mission.

 

https://www.jpl.nasa...comet-hale-bopp

https://en.wikipedia...(Siding_Spring)

 

 

And then the Hubble image of the disintegration of 332P/Ikeya-Murakami. The pieces are tumbling around but the dust & gas streams spread homogeneous in all directions. No vortex:

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Ikeya–Murakami


Edited by han.k, 14 March 2024 - 06:26 AM.


#15 pejorde

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 06:47 AM

These images show the stars streaks going two ways.The negative black stars go in the opposite direction as the white stars So it looks like part of the images were flipped and not corrected for the stacking. How can we trust then the comet image as reality since it is a blend of positive and flipped negative images?

 

 

Hmm. Both the dust and gas tail of Hale Bopp bent away from the comet nucleus , driven by the Sun. Only the gas tail moves away at a different angle. So both streams are effected and separate slowly. They must start from the same location of the comet nucleus, assuming the comet is a homogenous dirty snowball.  So it does not explain my initial observation.
 

Hubble telescope has made images of comet ISON. Siding Spring and Hale Bopp. There is no significant vortex visible. Same for images made by the Rosetta mission.

 

https://www.jpl.nasa...comet-hale-bopp

https://en.wikipedia...(Siding_Spring)

 

 

And then the Hubble image of the disintegration of 332P/Ikeya-Murakami. The pieces are tumbling around but the dust & gas streams spread homogeneous in all directions. No vortex:

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Ikeya–Murakami

Han:

 

The Larson-Sekanina filtering does involve rotational shifts of images and that give rise to the strange star patterns. The algorithm is described here:

https://users.libero...o/comets/ls.htm
 

As for Hale-Bopp, there were indeed spiral formed dust near the nucleus:

https://www.bibliote...lebopp12_11.jpg

 

As I recall, I did observe the Hale-Bopp spiral structure visually (no image manipulation!) at least once, but I do not have my notes handy right now.

 

Edit: Also see the Hale-Bopp animation in this Sky &Telecope article:

https://skyandtelesc...omet-observing/

 

Regards,

Per Erik
 


Edited by pejorde, 14 March 2024 - 06:54 AM.

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#16 han.k

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 08:02 AM

Yes but you need a very powerful jet shooting thousands of km into space. You will get a local spiral caused by the nucleus rotation but how does this explain the other jets leaving the nucleus in a straight line as shown in the initial image.  Secondly, your links shows that the spiral dimensions are much smaller then the comet dust head. The spiral quickly disintegrates  into a homogenous cloud forming the comet head.

 

This spiral should be visible in images of other observers. With my modest equipment I see none in 12P/Pons-Brooks. Only some structure in the tail.


Edited by han.k, 14 March 2024 - 01:37 PM.


#17 han.k

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 08:07 AM

For example the last images in this series, there is only a very faint hint of a spiral and it is much smaller then the head:

 

https://www.virtualt...ves-7-mar-2024/



#18 pejorde

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 02:44 PM

For example the last images in this series, there is only a very faint hint of a spiral and it is much smaller then the head:

 

https://www.virtualt...ves-7-mar-2024/

Han:

 

You may very well be right. I also find the spiral somewhat unexpectedly large, and the red color in the colored version is suspicious. My original comments were made only to highlight the complex gas/dust dynamics in comets in general. Since I mentioned observing Hale-Bobb, here is a sketch I made of the nuclear region, 27 years ago:

 

hale-bopp.1997.04.14.jpg

 

Regards,

Per Erik


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#19 Octans

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 04:11 PM

Yes but you need a very powerful jet shooting thousands of km into space. You will get a local spiral caused by the nucleus rotation but how does this explain the other jets leaving the nucleus in a straight line as shown in the initial image.  Secondly, your links shows that the spiral dimensions are much smaller then the comet dust head. The spiral quickly disintegrates  into a homogenous cloud forming the comet head.

 

This spiral should be visible in images of other observers. With my modest equipment I see none in 12P/Pons-Brooks. Only some structure in the tail.

Ionized particles get trapped in the magnetic field of the solar wind by the Lorentz force, and are immediately carried away with the solar wind into the ion tail. The "jets" forming a straight line away from the Sun are made of these ionized particles (mostly H2O+ and CO+).

 

Dust is uncharged (or at least have a very low to charge-to-mass ratio, so can be usually treated as uncharged) so isn't affected by this magnetic field and carries on expanding away from the nucleus until the very weak force of radiation pressure overcomes its sunward momentum and more slowly bends it back into a broader dust tail.


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#20 smiller

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Posted 14 March 2024 - 06:34 PM

On my capture, if I lower the brightness and sharpen the core, I get this structure from a March 8 capture:

 

Comet Pons Brooks Spiral Core.jpg


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#21 han.k

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Posted 15 March 2024 - 05:36 AM

On my capture, if I lower the brightness and sharpen the core, I get this structure from a March 8 capture:

 

 

Very nice image!

 

 

Ionized particles get trapped in the magnetic field of the solar wind by the Lorentz force, and are immediately carried away with the solar wind into the ion tail. The "jets" forming a straight line away from the Sun are made of these ionized particles (mostly H2O+ and CO+).

 

Dust is uncharged (or at least have a very low to charge-to-mass ratio, so can be usually treated as uncharged) so isn't affected by this magnetic field and carries on expanding away from the nucleus until the very weak force of radiation pressure overcomes its sunward momentum and more slowly bends it back into a broader dust tail.

 

If the jets leaving in a straight line from the nucleus are ionized gas caused by the UV sunlight, then why are they white and not blue? Does that indicate it is a mixture of dust and gas and separation comes later?.

 

The green head glow seems to be caused by diatomic carbon (C2).

 

A good scientific article about dust/gas streams based on the Rosetta mission can be found in the link below. Note that dust trajectories can bend strongly due to the Coriolis effect and are also influenced by the gas/particle interaction. So pretty complex behavior:

https://www.tandfonl...49.2017.1404436


Edited by han.k, 15 March 2024 - 06:29 AM.

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#22 stanislas-jean

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Posted 15 March 2024 - 08:56 AM

Hi,

Constructive theory and observations almost in situ of the comet core from this article.

Now is it match with our observations, limited in resolution.?

Returning back on these 10th march images, it remains the conditions of acquisition of the pictures,

10 to 30min at the total, one way classical and a second with pixinsight showing a stellar core appearance with curls.

The classical way is showing a very bright condensation, saturated sothat any classical treatment will fail. 

So pixinsight can help to reveal through a derotational processus features into the head.

I am not saying what was done are false features, I am trying to understand what is wrong from my acquisitions.

Here it is performed 4s each frame making 10-15min at the total using a sony 347C chipset.

From the other picure, this is 15min at the total, 30s each frame, collected by a sony 2600 chipset.

Apertures were similar: 10cm F5.5 against 11.4cm F4.

On the evscope making 30-60s exposure involves a saturated "core" still. 

 

For the rotation period I noted a 57H +/-, I tried also from my side an evaluation which is based on the figure shape which seems to involve a 5days period rotation +/-.

Here is:

https://www.cloudyni...tructure/page-2

A curious processus based on 2 rotation cycles. Just a trial.

Good skies.

Stanislas-Jean



#23 Octans

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Posted 15 March 2024 - 12:22 PM

The rotation period is indeed 57 hours: https://www.astronom...org/?read=16508

 

Very nice image!

 

 

 

If the jets leaving in a straight line from the nucleus are ionized gas caused by the UV sunlight, then why are they white and not blue? Does that indicate it is a mixture of dust and gas and separation comes later?.

 

The green head glow seems to be caused by diatomic carbon (C2).

 

A good scientific article about dust/gas streams based on the Rosetta mission can be found in the link below. Note that dust trajectories can bend strongly due to the Coriolis effect and are also influenced by the gas/particle interaction. So pretty complex behavior:

https://www.tandfonl...49.2017.1404436

The ion tail does not emit much UV. CO+ is blue, and H2O+ is red. UV is required to create then from CO and H2O originally, but not to make the ions glow. Forces acting on dust, aside from the initial gas drag pushing them outward from the nucleus, are essentially negligible compared to the Lorentz force acting on ions.


Edited by Octans, 15 March 2024 - 12:24 PM.


#24 unimatrix0

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Posted 15 March 2024 - 12:39 PM

This reminds me a bit of what Comet Hale-Bopp did, as at one point, it had a sort of spiral structure in its inner coma that was caught in a number of images (including the Hubble Space Telescope) but not mine.  I was looking for a somewhat wider view:

 

attachicon.gif HALEBOPP1procSmaller.JPG

IIRC the Pons-Brooks comet is mentioned on the scientific sites as a "Haley-like comet". 



#25 Janval

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Posted 17 March 2024 - 05:59 AM

Yes but you need a very powerful jet shooting thousands of km into space. You will get a local spiral caused by the nucleus rotation but how does this explain the other jets leaving the nucleus in a straight line as shown in the initial image.  Secondly, your links shows that the spiral dimensions are much smaller then the comet dust head. The spiral quickly disintegrates  into a homogenous cloud forming the comet head.

 

This spiral should be visible in images of other observers. With my modest equipment I see none in 12P/Pons-Brooks. Only some structure in the tail.

The spirals have actually been visible in several other images, and my bet is that it is possible to reveal it within most images as well. The first one to really test this was Juris Sennikovs: https://spaceweather...th=03&year=2024

Beyond this I've also been in touch with BAA where I got in contact with a particular person who also observed signs of the same structure. His images are available in their 12P archive along with others. I've also seen people posting results on Facebook and getting the same as well.
 

 

Hi,

Constructive theory and observations almost in situ of the comet core from this article.

Now is it match with our observations, limited in resolution.?

Returning back on these 10th march images, it remains the conditions of acquisition of the pictures,

10 to 30min at the total, one way classical and a second with pixinsight showing a stellar core appearance with curls.

The classical way is showing a very bright condensation, saturated sothat any classical treatment will fail. 

So pixinsight can help to reveal through a derotational processus features into the head.

I am not saying what was done are false features, I am trying to understand what is wrong from my acquisitions.

Here it is performed 4s each frame making 10-15min at the total using a sony 347C chipset.

From the other picure, this is 15min at the total, 30s each frame, collected by a sony 2600 chipset.

Apertures were similar: 10cm F5.5 against 11.4cm F4.

On the evscope making 30-60s exposure involves a saturated "core" still. 

 

For the rotation period I noted a 57H +/-, I tried also from my side an evaluation which is based on the figure shape which seems to involve a 5days period rotation +/-.

Here is:

https://www.cloudyni...tructure/page-2

A curious processus based on 2 rotation cycles. Just a trial.

Good skies.

Stanislas-Jean

I've not used any kind of derotation in order to process the image, only native PI which I think I explained further up in the thread. In it's linear stage nothing except for the nucelus itself might be saturated a bit, but not entirely across all channels. In my case nothing outside the nucleus has been over-exposed at 30s.

 

 

Han:

 

You may very well be right. I also find the spiral somewhat unexpectedly large, and the red color in the colored version is suspicious. My original comments were made only to highlight the complex gas/dust dynamics in comets in general. Since I mentioned observing Hale-Bobb, here is a sketch I made of the nuclear region, 27 years ago:

 

attachicon.gif hale-bopp.1997.04.14.jpg

 

Regards,

Per Erik

 

As for the red color, I believe I explained further on this above as well, but the idea of "digging" in to the bright areas has to be applied to all channels. If you work only on the luminance image and then simply under-stretch the RGB data you will not get a fair representation of the colors. They will look more traditional, sure. But they will not correlate to the luminance data at all. You have to do the same processing to all the channels, which in return "peels" off the brightest layers (rather the coloring of the brightest layers) and leave what's behind them revealed. 


General reply: I'm only an imager, not an astronomer. So I can't really delve into the deeper meaning of what the data represents, I only hope that it can be used to further study the comet. There will be a more professional judgement of the image soon though, where professional astronomers explain the details of what you can see. I'll post it up tomorrow as soon as it's live. I understand the skepticism though, as there will always be some skeptics when untraditional stuff is done, and yes it does take a bit of processing to reveal these structures - but they're just as much there as the Orion has it's trapezium :) 




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