50 replies to this topic

[LordZalmoxes]

Hi all,
A heads up :
Scope - ES 12" truss (~1560 mm fl)
EPs - GSO superview 30 mm 68 fov, celestron xcel 7mm 52 fov, svbony 3-8 mm zoom unsure about fov but it's claustrophobic.
Site - Bortle 4/5 by the looks of it, lpmap says 2 but thats data 10 yrs old.
indicators - beehive naked eye averted. Canis major was littered. Could see upto alpha centautri. Milky way core visible as a cloudy patch. Saw two triplets and the third through averted vision. 25 min DA.


I'm looking for some tips to hunt galaxies. My process involves hunting with 52x and going down to 223x to catch any features. Problem is I don't see too much. I sometimes read features like "knots" or "absorption" but haven't quite seen these.
Would I need softening of expectations? Would only a b1-b2 let me see this or bigger appeture.
In any case, are there galaxies out there where we can see features? Still a newbie here seen some of the well known ones m81,82, Leo triplets, Markarian chain etc. Ellipticals are easy to see no features. Spirals though. Beautiful, yet elusive.
Anything that would help me in this hunt would be much appreciated!

[Keith Rivich]

Where exactly are you observing from?

 

Here is my recent post on observing galaxies with a 6" scope from SQML 21.30 skies, central Texas. 

 

https://www.cloudyni...with-a-6-scope/

Edited by Keith Rivich, 15 April 2024 - 10:29 AM.

[CrazyPanda]

Most galaxies will be difficult to catch features in, in a class 4/5 sky. Those that do show features, are quite subtle. Generally you should not expect to see spiral structure in many galaxies. What you will more likely see are irregularities in brightness, which can indicate star clouds or nebulae.

 

While integrated magnitude isn't a perfect indicator of an extended object's visibility, if you stick to Mag 10 or brighter spiral and irregular galaxies, you'll have better luck at seeing features. Ellipticals are boring and I generally avoid observing them unless it's to check a box in a list like the H400.

 

Try waiting until the galaxy is at the highest point in the sky, crossing the merdian. Try planning your observations around these times if you can.

 

Good exit pupils to use will fall between 1.5mm (7.5mm eyepiece - your 7mm X-Cel is fine) and 2.5mm (12.5mm eyepiece). Which is best, depends on the galaxy. It's good to have a few options here. 7mm, 9mm, and 12mm would be good focal lengths. The 9mm and 12mm X-Cel LXs would be useful additions if you wanted to stick to the X-Cel line. Alternatively, the 10mm Pentax XW would be a very good fit for your F/5 scope. It's a superb eyepiece with very high transmission and a wider field of view than X-Cel LX. A 7mm and 10mm combo is a powerful pair to have for galaxy hunting in a 12" F/5 scope.

 

I will try and dig up a list of my favorite galaxies with features. I'm in class 4.5 skies, similar to yours.

[LordZalmoxes]

Most galaxies will be difficult to catch features in, in a class 4/5 sky. Those that do show features, are quite subtle. Generally you should not expect to see spiral structure in many galaxies. What you will more likely see are irregularities in brightness, which can indicate star clouds or nebulae.

While integrated magnitude isn't a perfect indicator of an extended object's visibility, if you stick to Mag 10 or brighter spiral and irregular galaxies, you'll have better luck at seeing features. Ellipticals are boring and I generally avoid observing them unless it's to check a box in a list like the H400.

Try waiting until the galaxy is at the highest point in the sky, crossing the merdian. Try planning your observations around these times if you can.

Good exit pupils to use will fall between 1.5mm (7.5mm eyepiece - your 7mm X-Cel is fine) and 2.5mm (12.5mm eyepiece). Which is best, depends on the galaxy. It's good to have a few options here. 7mm, 9mm, and 12mm would be good focal lengths. The 9mm and 12mm X-Cel LXs would be useful additions if you wanted to stick to the X-Cel line. Alternatively, the 10mm Pentax XW would be a very good fit for your F/5 scope. It's a superb eyepiece with very high transmission and a wider field of view than X-Cel LX. A 7mm and 10mm combo is a powerful pair to have for galaxy hunting in a 12" F/5 scope.

I will try and dig up a list of my favorite galaxies with features. I'm in class 4.5 skies, similar to yours.

Hey really appreciate this response. Yes I feared it might be the skies. Are there any particular ones you would suggest where I can study to gain some experience on noticing these features you mentioned like the star clouds and nebulae?
You mentioned "depends on the galaxy" - what might you mean by that? Would exit pupil compared and mag be metrics to determine this?
Thank you very much for your time!

[LordZalmoxes]

Where exactly are you observing from?

Here is my recent post on observing galaxies with a 6" scope from SQML 21.30 skies, central Texas.

https://www.cloudyni...with-a-6-scope/

Northern hemisphere, south Asia! Let me have a look thank you!

[CrazyPanda]

Are there any particular ones you would suggest where I can study to gain some experience on noticing these features you mentioned like the star clouds and nebulae?

 

There are quite a few, but the couple I can think of off the top of my head would be:

 

1. NGC 2903 in Leo. This is a barred spiral with a cataloged star cloud in it (NGC 2905). On nights of excellent transparency at moderate to high magnification, you can see hints of the bar structure in averted vision, and averted vision will show the bright knot of light in the galaxy (which is NGC 2905). You'll also see non-uniform brightness in general, indicating subtle structure is present.

 

2. M33 in Triangulum. Big target - use medium/low power. You'll find that the spiral arms are almost invisible, but you'll see various fuzz balls dotted throughout the field. Those are nebulae and star forming regions that have higher surface brightness than the galaxy's overall structure. The biggest and brightest of the bunch is NGC 604 - a star forming region almost as massive as the Tarantula Nebula in our LMC. If you use very high magnification against this nebula in a night of steady seeing (say, 500x), you can see knots and structures in that nebula. Seeing structural details in a nebula in another galaxy is pretty amazing IMO.

 

3. M82 - you've already noted this, but it's the best example of an irregular galaxy in the sky. It takes high magnification very well.

 

4. NGC 4565 - the Needle Galaxy. One of the coolest edge-on spirals in the sky. Use moderate-high magnification (7mm to 9mm in your scope) and you'll see the dust spine bifurcating the galaxy. On nights of steady seeing, the stellar-like nucleus in the core will be seen rising above the dusty spine. If the sky is very transparent and dark, the galaxy will stretch from one edge of the eyepiece to the other.

 

5. NGC 2403. This is better than most Messier galaxies. A 10-12mm eyepiece would be best for it in your scope. On transparent nights in averted vision, it will show lots of irregularity in brightness, indicating its patchy spiral arms. You'll also see nebula NGC 2404 as a bright patch in the galaxy. It's quite nice.

 

6. NGC 4449. Another excellent irregular galaxy. You'll see its irregular shape and patchy texture fairly easily at moderate-high magnification.

 

7. M63 M64 (thanks for the correction Dave) - Black Eye Galaxy. The defining feature is that which gives it its name - a very broad dark patch that makes the galaxy look like it has a black eye. Use moderate-high magnification for this. Your 7mm would be the best choice.

 

There are honestly a lot of other galaxies with features to see that should be visible in your scope and skies, but again, they are all quite subtle and may take some observing experience and patience with transparent skies to see.

Edited by CrazyPanda, 15 April 2024 - 01:25 PM.

[LordNewton]

I find the most important factors to be:

• not when the moon is around. definitly not when its close to full.
• making sure the eyes are completly dark adapted

[Keith Rivich]

Northern hemisphere, south Asia! Let me have a look thank you!

That narrows it down...

[Sketcher]

Would I need softening of expectations? Would only a b1-b2 let me see this or bigger appeture.

Tip #1:  Drop all expectations.

 

I've been absolutely 100% satisfied and pleased with my views of galaxies with each of my refractors, from a 6-inch aperture all the way down to a 1/2-inch aperture -- and yes, I've observed galaxies (and yes, I'm using the plural -- galaxies) using a 1/2-inch aperture.

 

Visual astronomy is so much better when all one is concerned with is the ability to see as much as one can see when using whatever instrument one has chosen to use.

 

But if you're hopelessly hung up on expectations, and you want to stick with traditional visual astronomy, then your options are:

 

a) Gain more experience in the art of visual astronomy.

 

b) Do your observing from a pristine location -- zero light-pollution, zero light-trespass, zero moonlight, etc.

 

c) In addition to (a) and (b) above, scrap that puny little 12-inch telescope (Hey, if well respected CN posters can get away with calling my 6-inch and smaller telescopes "puny", then I can also use that term ) and go buy at least a 50-incher.  If that doesn't do the trick, trade the 50-incher in for a more respectable 100-inch telescope.

 

But frankly, even after doing all of the above, you might still be disappointed in your views of galaxies.  It comes down (once again) to those nasty expectations.

 

Seeing what I expect to see is just ho--hum.  Seeing the unexpected -- well, that's where all the glories reside  .  Expect nothing and you'll never be disappointed again.  This, regardless of your sky quality and regardless of your telescope.

[Dave Mitsky]

7. M63 - Black Eye Galaxy. The defining feature is that which gives it its name - a very broad dark patch that makes the galaxy look like it has a black eye. Use moderate-high magnification for this. Your 7mm would be the best choice.

I believe that you meant M64.  M63 is known as the Sunflower Galaxy.

[CrazyPanda]

Doh, you are right. Will edit.

[Napp]

LordZalmoxes, you've gotten excellent advice from a number of very experienced observers.  I don't feel that one point has been emphasized quite enough.  In addition to dark, transparent skies you need to get experience.  You have to spend the time at the eyepiece to train your eye/brain to deal with low contrast, faint objects.  You don't walk up to the eyepiece day 1 of galaxy hunting and have the ability to see the objects and features that experienced eye/brains will see.  Travel to darker skies as you can but observe as much as possible even in your Bortle 4/5 sky.  Galaxy season is 'rising in the east'.  Over time you will see and notice things you couldn't previously.  The really nice thing about all this is that if your eye health stays good you can keep getting better at it.

[Dave Mitsky]

Here are a few more galaxies that might be good targets, depending upon your latitude: M63, M101, M104, M106, NGC 55, NGC 247, NGC 253, NGC 2683, NGC 2841, NGC 3115, NGC 4244, NGC 4631, NGC 5128, and NGC 6949. 

 

The Draco Group (NGC 5985, NGC 5982, and NGC 5981) and Hickson 44 (NGC 3185, NGC 3187, NGC 3190, and NGC 3193) are two of my favorite "lesser known" galaxy groups.

[sevenofnine]

+1 on all of the advice so far  

Getting dark adapted and staying that way has helped me see more detail in galaxies. After I set up my scope, I get comfortable in a zero gravity chair with a pair of binoculars. When the stars start to pop in those then I know it's time for the telescope. I wear a XL hooded sweatshirt to shield my eyes from stray light. With a Rigel Starlite Mini on it's lowest setting, I'm now ready for the eyepiece. Best of luck hunting those elusive galaxies!   

[LordZalmoxes]

Some amazing responses here exactly what I was looking for. A HUGE HUGE thank you to all of you!!
I'm from India, we don't have much of a scene here. Scattered clubs only with a tick box focus. Noone gets into the details but for my friend and I. Unfortunately the b1 and b2 are more than 500 km away - not exactly an easy drive. Regardless, I'm on the hunt! High population densities make it quite difficult, however.
Thank you all so much this has been really helpful. Of course I welcome more suggestions if you remember them or would like to add!
Clear skies to you all!

[LordZalmoxes]

LordZalmoxes, you've gotten excellent advice from a number of very experienced observers. I don't feel that one point has been emphasized quite enough. In addition to dark, transparent skies you need to get experience. You have to spend the time at the eyepiece to train your eye/brain to deal with low contrast, faint objects. You don't walk up to the eyepiece day 1 of galaxy hunting and have the ability to see the objects and features that experienced eye/brains will see. Travel to darker skies as you can but observe as much as possible even in your Bortle 4/5 sky. Galaxy season is 'rising in the east'. Over time you will see and notice things you couldn't previously. The really nice thing about all this is that if your eye health stays good you can keep getting better at it.

How does one train the eye to see this contrast? Is it just a matter of repeated staring at objects after knowing what to look for? Would it be meridian viewing? Or am I missing something?
Would the only way I can progress here be to go to a darker sky see how these "features" look and then relate in a b4 so I can calibrate?
Apologies for the bombardment but this thread is really getting me excited!
When you say galaxy season is rising in the east - what do u mean forgive my lack of knowledge here

[CrazyPanda]

How does one train the eye to see this contrast?

 

Observing experience is a skill that develops over time just by repeated observations of an object. You develop a general skill for all objects, but you also develop specific skills for specific objects. This happens automatically and naturally as long as you spend time observing. Your visual system is not used to operating in very low light conditions. Your brain hasn't learned how to care about subtle features at the edge of visible detection. It is subconsciously ignoring them. But over time, it starts to care about those features. One day you'll be observing a target you've seen dozens of times before, and you'll just happen to notice a new feature that you'd never noticed before. It's always been there, but your brain has been filtering it out.

 

You can accelerate this process by being deliberate about your observations:

 

1. Use a wide variety of magnifications against a target and spend a good amount of time at each magnification (several minutes) to let your eyes re-adapt to the lower light levels as you increase in magnification.

2. Talk to yourself about what you see, out loud, or even dictate notes into an app on your phone. Force yourself to describe every little detail you notice, even if it doesn't seem significant. Don't just look. Observe.

 

When I first got into this hobby 30 years ago, one of my first scopes was a small 4.5" F/8 reflector. It's the first scope I saw the Orion Nebula through. All I really noticed was the box-like core of the nebula. I didn't notice the "wings" until a few seasons later. A few years ago I re-purchased the same instrument. Where I live now has the same light pollution levels as where I lived when I first got into the hobby. When I look at M42 now, I see SUBSTANTIALLY more detail and features than when I first saw it. All kinds of structural details and extended bits of nebulosity that I simply never saw in my first few looks of the target. That's what 30 years of observing experience will do. I've looked at M42 hundreds of times and features that my brain initially filtered out as insignificant, are now significant and clear to me, and it's almost impossible to imagine a time where I couldn't see them.

[LordZalmoxes]

Observing experience is a skill that develops over time just by repeated observations of an object. You develop a general skill for all objects, but you also develop specific skills for specific objects. This happens automatically and naturally as long as you spend time observing. Your visual system is not used to operating in very low light conditions. Your brain hasn't learned how to care about subtle features at the edge of visible detection. It is subconsciously ignoring them. But over time, it starts to care about those features. One day you'll be observing a target you've seen dozens of times before, and you'll just happen to notice a new feature that you'd never noticed before. It's always been there, but your brain has been filtering it out.

You can accelerate this process by being deliberate about your observations:

1. Use a wide variety of magnifications against a target and spend a good amount of time at each magnification (several minutes) to let your eyes re-adapt to the lower light levels as you increase in magnification.
2. Talk to yourself about what you see, out loud, or even dictate notes into an app on your phone. Force yourself to describe every little detail you notice, even if it doesn't seem significant. Don't just look. Observe.

When I first got into this hobby 30 years ago, one of my first scopes was a small 4.5" F/8 reflector. It's the first scope I saw the Orion Nebula through. All I really noticed was the box-like core of the nebula. I didn't notice the "wings" until a few seasons later. A few years ago I re-purchased the same instrument. Where I live now has the same light pollution levels as where I lived when I first got into the hobby. When I look at M42 now, I see SUBSTANTIALLY more detail and features than when I first saw it. All kinds of structural details and extended bits of nebulosity that I simply never saw in my first few looks of the target. That's what 30 years of observing experience will do. I've looked at M42 hundreds of times and features that my brain initially filtered out as insignificant, are now significant and clear to me, and it's almost impossible to imagine a time where I couldn't see them.

Phenomenonal! I have goosebumps reading this. Thank you so much. Let me try this. I actually don't give my eyes time to adjust - I go high mag see it for a min not more and move on when it's a patch. This really helps! I shall try this come the new moon of May, if the monsoons permit me.

[Napp]

I'll add a little to CrazyPanda's answer.  Sketching is a great way to build your observing skills.  Spend a lot of time at the eyepiece on an object and build your sketch as features appear.  Be sure to get fully dark adapted before observing.  It takes at least 30 minutes.  Protect your dark adaptation.  sevenofnine provided some good tips in Post #15 above.  To get an idea of how objects look in the eyepiece use sketches and not photos.  Go over to the Sketching forum and search for specific objects.

[LordZalmoxes]

I'll add a little to CrazyPanda's answer. Sketching is a great way to build your observing skills. Spend a lot of time at the eyepiece on an object and build your sketch as features appear. Be sure to get fully dark adapted before observing. It takes at least 30 minutes. Protect your dark adaptation. sevenofnine provided some good tips in Post #15 above.

Sketching in the darkness I find to be a bit difficult. And I don't want any lights cause I think even red lights should cause some effect right? I also use a cloth! I find it really increases the contrast in what I see!
30 minutes it is! Alright thank you.

[CrazyPanda]

And I don't want any lights cause I think even red lights should cause some effect right?

 

They do have an effect, but it's relatively minor and your dark adapted vision recovers quickly. Still, if you're trying to find objects that are at the very limit of observability, it's best to even keep the red lights off. But those types of targets probably aren't being sketched as they would only intermittently appear in averted vision.

 

You can also wear an eye patch over your observing eye to keep it fully dark adapted when you sketch.

 

But I don't recommend sketching if your scope doesn't track. Too much of a hassle.

[Napp]

When you say galaxy season is rising in the east - what do u mean forgive my lack of knowledge here

Spring is considered galaxy season because of the huge clusters of galaxies in the spring constellations.  They are the predominant deep sky targets of spring.  The attached chart is from Sky Safari showing galaxies (small ovals) magnitude 11 and brighter.

Attached Thumbnails

• 

[Dave Mitsky]

https://www.celestro...hern-hemisphere

[rdjamieson]

 

I find the most important factors to be:

• not when the moon is around. definitly not when its close to full.
• making sure the eyes are completly dark adapted

 

Yes, this!  The moon (and light pollution) will wash out galaxies .  Re dark adaption, it takes me a good 40 minutes.  Being overeager, I'll try at 20 mins, can't see squat, but then after another 20 objects start to pop.   

[Spile]

This is how I find dim fuzzies https://astro.catshi...ing-dim-objects and yes the most important factors are dark skies, having the right atmospheric conditions and having patience!

Edited by Spile, 16 April 2024 - 03:42 PM.