53 replies to this topic

[DeepSkyFocus]

Hello CN, so I ordered and received the device with all the accessories from Televue last week and was finally able to test out.

This is my first experience with NV Astronomy so my knowledge is limited in what is fair/good/excellent as far as tube quality.

I've got to be honest as I was a little dissapointed with the view through the device Halo and EBI are very noticeable. This may be because of my inexperience with the device though.

I would really appreciate any advice on the specs and if it's up to par with what indeed is an astronomy grade tube.

Thanks all.

FOM - 1700
Photocathode Sensitivity - 1782
EBI - 2.0
SNR - 26.6
Center Resolution - 64
Halo - .09

Edited by DeepSkyFocus, 24 April 2024 - 09:15 PM.

[bobo99]

Your FOM is about 1700.( Resolution multiplied by SNR) The EBI and halo are very high and would explain why you're struggling to see things. How much did you pay for this pvs14? Can it be returned ? In this day and age, and since you live in the USA you have access to some of the best night vision in the world. This tube isn't exactly astronomy grade.

[DeepSkyFocus]

I paid $4199 for the tube and just got it a week ago so through Televue via TNVC.

 

I'm not sure on the return policy of the device but would think it's returnable if it does not meet the specs needed for astronomy.

 

1700 FOM seems very low and a bit dissapointing.

 

Thanks for your input Bobo.

[chemisted]

You called it correctly. NONE of the specs are astronomy grade. You must return it. I'm astounded they sent you that unit. I would seriously consider demanding a refund and going to another vendor. There are plenty of top end devices out there for less money.

[Ben Diss]

The night hunting crowd steer very clear of TNVC. Love Tele Vue but wish they partnered with a different vendor.

[bobo99]

Could you tell us more about the purchasing process ? Do you ask for one pvs14 please and they send you something ? Or was there an opportunity for you to choose /reject based on characteristics ? Search around the forums here for what you're looking for. For such a large purchase it's best to equip yourself with lots of knowledge.

[sixela]

Mhh -- I wouldn't be happy with that tube at that price.

[DeepSkyFocus]

Could you tell us more about the purchasing process ? Do you ask for one pvs14 please and they send you something ? Or was there an opportunity for you to choose /reject based on characteristics ? Search around the forums here for what you're looking for. For such a large purchase it's best to equip yourself with lots of knowledge.

I actually went through Televue directly after researching on their website about the process.

 

Process is as follows:

I called Televue and let them know I would like the full kit, they take a deposit and order the custom device directly from TNVC. They let you know about the wait time also. TNVC then sends it to Televue who then tests the device. Once they've tested it then they call me for the rest of the balance and ship directly to me along with any other accessories in the Televue kit.

 

I sent an email to TNVC and waiting to hear back - will call later if no reply in a few hours.

 

I reached out to Televue also who looked up my tube by serial. Strangely the tech support person advised that the Halo and EBI should not affect the views when looking at nebulas which may be true but I would use it for looking at everything in the dark skies. Support person states I should reach out to TNVC also. 

[Joko]

These specifications meet the values guaranteed by Tele Vue.

 

On their website, you can read their minimum/maximum specifications (by clicking on the green word "Specifications") :

RESOLUTION 64 - 72 lines per mm

SIGNAL-TO-NOISE 24:1 (Minimum)

Meaning a min FOM of 1536

 

Also i'd like to clarify that "Astronomy Grade" is a term used for our OVNI Night Vision tubes. There is no other seller that makes "Astronomy Grade" tubes as their tubes come from batch of production not made for astronomy and not provided by our company.

Edited by DeepSky Di, 24 April 2024 - 06:11 PM.

[sixela]

24 as an SNR minimum is really not that high, it's really "we'll just get a L3Harris and throw it over the fence". And in this case you're at the wrong end of the distribution of SNR for these devices. And the same for resolution and EBI.

TNVC are very probably capable of picking better tubes than that: just look at the two TNVC tubes at the top of https://www.loptics....ghtvision2.html for examples...they may not be "astronomy grade" but they sure as heck seem to be fine for it ;-).

Edited by sixela, 24 April 2024 - 10:20 AM.

[Aerions]

this is probably as bad or worse than my $500 omni intensifier in my pvs 7. id be livid man..... hope things get made right. 2.0 ebi is not for serious astronomy at all 

[Celestro21]

Oh my goodness... that just isn't for stargazing at all. Great if your into the tacticool aspect of shooting targets with a helmet on but not stargazing. I bought an L3 Harris unfilmed from Night Hawk vision. The FOM of 2240, ebi .3 and SNR 35. I know if I could spend a lot more I would have gone with Ovni night vision. My unit was 4100. See if you can return that one and head over to night hawk. You can find some good nods there

[Aerions]

Oh my goodness... that just isn't for stargazing at all. Great if your into the tacticool aspect of shooting targets with a helmet on but not stargazing. I bought an L3 Harris unfilmed from Night Hawk vision. The FOM of 2240, ebi .3 and SNR 35. I know if I could spend a lot more I would have gone with Ovni night vision. My unit was 4100. See if you can return that one and head over to night hawk. You can find some good nods there

yeahhh anything hand selected is better than that **** the guy got lol  

Edited by Aerions, 24 April 2024 - 11:56 AM.

[rgk901]

televue needs to changes partners. This is not the first one I read and that's if you actually pay attention given you are ordering from a top astro vendor.

[DeepSkyFocus]

Thank you all so much for the invaluable feedback, advice and comments.

TNVC replied and currently working towards resolving the problem.

I advised that a tube with the specs below should work, please let me know if I missed something.

Res 76
EBI .5
SNR 35
Halo .5

[WheezyGod]

Thank you all so much for the invaluable feedback, advice and comments.

TNVC replied and currently working towards resolving the problem.

I advised that a tube with the specs below should work, please let me know if I missed something.

Res 76
EBI .5
SNR 35
Halo .5

A RES of 64 is fine, there’s no noticeable difference between that and a 72. Your EBI and SNR values are fair to ask for given what else can be gotten from other vendors. That halo value is near impossible to find. .7 is fine, .6 is quite rare.

I created a night vision presentation for my astronomy club and presented it out about a month ago. One of my key points was to stay clear of Televue for night vision.
1. They’re a respectable brand with great quality, innovation, and customer service, but for night vision they’re just getting what TNVC gives them.
2. You have to wait longer to get a device compared to other sellers.
3. You have to accept what they give you. At least with TNVC you can specify minimum specs. Other brands you get to hand pick.

I thought the experience of someone several months ago from Texas who got a tube with a 1.1 EBI was sad to hear. This is far worse and sorry you have to deal with this. Televue should make it right though and I hope they can give you what you’re looking for.

[Clutch5150]

Thank you all so much for the invaluable feedback, advice and comments.

TNVC replied and currently working towards resolving the problem.

I advised that a tube with the specs below should work, please let me know if I missed something.

Res 76
EBI .5
SNR 35
Halo .5

Hi, I was notified of this as well and was notified of this thread. I need to spend more time here as I get so wrapped up with other "running the business things", but STILL no excuse.

 

The tube above is phenomenal.  My build Director knows and does supply all astronomy folks the best tubes we can for the night skies as I have instructed that from the onset.  I too am a avid astronomer and this one plain fell through the cracks.  I apologize for the inconvenience and we WILL get this taken care of pronto.  Thank you and my personal apologies again.  Contact me any time and PM here if ya like, can give ya my cell # for anything further.  Thank you!

 

Vic

[sixela]

DeepskyFocus, be sure to post the specs --but not specs sheets-- of that other tube once you get it ;-).

Edited by sixela, 24 April 2024 - 06:04 PM.

[bobo99]

These specifications meet the values guaranteed by Tele Vue.

 

On their website, you can read their minimum/maximum specifications (by clicking on the green word "Specifications") :

RESOLUTION 64 - 72 lines per mm

SIGNAL-TO-NOISE 24:1 (Minimum)

Meaning a min FOM of 1536

 

Also i'd like to clarify that "Astronomy Grade" is a term used for our OVNI Night Vision tubes. There is no other seller that makes "Astronomy Grade" tubes as their tubes come from batch of production not made for astronomy and not provided by our company.

 

How does this work ? Astronomy grade is a set of performance characteristics.

If you have an OVNI with the exact same performance as an L3 pvs14, and Snr ebi, FOM and all other characteristics are all the same, they would both be astronomy grade, correct ?

[DeepSky Di]

All - please go read the NV Forum Rules https://www.cloudyni...my-forum-rules/

 

Posting of spec sheets is not permitted.

[Clutch5150]

24 as an SNR minimum is really not that high, it's really "we'll just get a L3Harris and throw it over the fence". And in this case you're at the wrong end of the distribution of SNR for these devices. And the same for resolution and EBI.

TNVC are very probably capable of picking better tubes than that: just look at the two TNVC tubes at the top of https://www.loptics....ghtvision2.html for examples...they may not be "astronomy grade" but they sure as heck seem to be fine for it ;-).

You are very correct, we have to post the "minimums" what L3 states, but we hardly ever have tubes that are that low and when we do, we keep them for our training stuff.  This one as I mentioned fell through the cracks and you did not want to be on the bat phone earlier when I contacted my VP of Admin on this one!    They ALL know at TNVC how I feel about astronomy and how it's my passion and why TeleVue is the best EP company out there for good reason we team with. 

[Clutch5150]

All - please go read the NV Forum Rules https://www.cloudyni...my-forum-rules/

 

Posting of spec sheets is not permitted.

Thanks, I PM'd him as well on this. (He can just type the specs), perfectly normal, and I PM'd that info as well.

 

Vic

Edited by Clutch5150, 24 April 2024 - 06:11 PM.

[sixela]

Posting of spec *sheets* is not allowed, but AFAIK it's perfectly reasonable to state the EBI, SNR, PCR and halo values of our devices.

[Clutch5150]

Another point I'd like to make about the L3/Harris white phos unfilmed tubes we use are US ITAR protected Mil Spec tubes that are not allowed, nor can be sold to outside CONUS.  I wish we could sell these specific tubes to European customers, but we cannot.  Yes it is true these tubes are the exact tubes our US Special Operations use and are truly the best intensifier tubes in the world. 

 

These L3/Hrarris tubes we now supply TeleVue have the following Min Specs (remember these are minimum) and we always try to maintain for astronomy purposes. (Sometimes the customers rather get a tiny point higher than waiting longer for something to arrive), but we do our absolute best to support the following.

 

S/N: 33

L/P: 72

*FOM 2376* (See below)

EBI: Under 1.0, (But we always try to get to .7 or below, but at times L3 wait times for this data point can cause a wait)

HALO .8 or below

 

You also hear about "Figure of Merit" (FOM). The FOM value is calculated using the following: S/N x lp/mm (S/N = signal to noise ratio). In the TeleVue tubes, the min FOM is 2376 (which was unheard of just a few short years ago.  L3 has REALLY cracked the code on their UF tube technology.  I have handled some tubes in the 4000 FOM range that are used in some SOCOM arenas.   These tubes are NOT available so please refrain from the messages. LoL  I remember not that long ago folks were waiting a LONG time for 2376 FOM tubes, now they're routine.

 

In closing folks, can ask TeleVue for higher specs (which IMHO doesn't equate to deep sky advantages in the case of a few points higher S/N), but can increase wait times.  I have been using NV in telescopes for over 30 years now, long before this exciting technology became mainstream. Yes, you heard that right. My fist time using NV in a telescope was in 1994 with a C8 while using my first PVS-14 with a Gen 2+! 

 

I wish I would have began promoting NV in telescopes at that time!  I lived in Chicago and you can imagine the light pollution problems that even a Gen 2+ assisted with. Flash forward 5 years ago or so when Al and I started talking about it.

 

Edit:  These min specs may change at any time (at a higher level) as the routine higher spec technology keeps getting better and better out the L3/Harris doors.

Edited by Clutch5150, 25 April 2024 - 10:40 AM.

[Souldrop]

Great way to be proactive Vic! Those are solid specs. It won’t stop spec chasers, but those specs put anyone solidly in the NV game.

My only soft suggestion in order to avoid potentially disappointed astronomy customers would be to specifically call out max spot specs. I know your tubes tend to be cleaner than most, but people may appreciate slightly more information in that regard