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T Corona Borealis

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#26 yuzameh

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Posted 21 June 2024 - 12:51 PM

Hi,

Rather than get an email for getting the event on going, when possible make a shot of T Crb under an open sky even not excellent.

And check frequently the AAVSO website for any occurence.

 

On the last picture above performed with the evscope unistellar, the T Crb is centered and you may see systems of 3 double stars as reference, this create a tringle where T Crb is in. The field of view is tiny but a ss50 zwo can image also with a greater FOV having stars for to-day of similar magnitudes. This is easy.

The presence of IC 4587 close to can help you also for finding the celestial north.

 

Here is a picture performed last 18th with the SS50, only 3rd magn stars was visible visually during the shot.

Good skies.

Stanislas-Jean

 

attachicon.gif resized_T Crb 2min 18.06.24.jpg

It's always useful to give a rough idea of the field of view and some rough indication of the direction of north.  Orientation and scale matter a lot when different levels of magnitude depth are in virually every image, and especially if you are trying to match in software.

 

The IC object was a clue I could use but two objects make it easier for both scale and orientation.

 

In which light note that the 'double' star to the left of your image near the edge is H V 75 (H for Herschel of the William flavour) and if you image it tonight at the same hour you will see 2 Pallas about 12' directly "below" it given the same orientation.



#27 stanislas-jean

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Posted 21 June 2024 - 01:14 PM

Yes Pallas is on, the ss50 library doesnot consider yet asteröïds.

Now the question is to report a status, north mentionned or not.

On the picture we see 4 apparent double stars that may help to orientate what you request, using a reference sky map, here The Sky6. IC 4587 can help also.

Personnally I consider this is on a secondary level.

The tool on use, and that must be considered is the ss50 zwo on alta mode and tracking with its FOV (interresting in fact for this object).

Last 18th picture was taken on average to bad conditions, only magn 3 was accessible with the naked eye, T Crb about 75° elevation, and big winds.

It is not necessary to get the best possible conditions to catch a burst that occurs from magn 10 to 2 into 12H time.

Therefore, alert system or not, necessary to be on.

If you intent to be alerted, you should be member of bodies acting on such subjects, AAVSO for example, for being mailed or phone advise. Not a member for, on planetary topics I am.

The survey is continued as we can, weather is commanding.

Good skies.

Stanislas-Jean



#28 Starhunter249

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 09:23 AM

According to a short article on today's page on Spaceweather.com, T Crb is due to erupt either right now or the next few days. Brad Schaefer, Professor Emeritus of Astronomy at Louisiana State University, interviewed in the article states that the pre-cursor dip in activity started in 2023 and based on past recorded data, should explode anytime in the next few days. Its daytime right now, but tonight I will have clear sky and plan to set up scope and track T Crb for as long as my eyes will stay open. I am going to set my phone tonight for timelapse to save space on my storage and maybe if lucky, get a before, during, and after shots. T Crb may have gone super nova before I get home from work today. I hope someone will get some video of the event, whenever it does occur.

 

Good luck and clear skies.


Edited by Starhunter249, 26 June 2024 - 09:24 AM.


#29 PeterSurma

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 10:25 AM

According to a short article on today's page on Spaceweather.com, T Crb is due to erupt either right now or the next few days. Brad Schaefer, Professor Emeritus of Astronomy at Louisiana State University, interviewed in the article states that the pre-cursor dip in activity started in 2023 and based on past recorded data, should explode anytime in the next few days. Its daytime right now, but tonight I will have clear sky and plan to set up scope and track T Crb for as long as my eyes will stay open. I am going to set my phone tonight for timelapse to save space on my storage and maybe if lucky, get a before, during, and after shots. T Crb may have gone super nova before I get home from work today. I hope someone will get some video of the event, whenever it does occur.

 

Good luck and clear skies.

Reading the article it should be clarified:

LITERALLY NOTHING has changed with respect to what has already been known now for several months or even a year or so. There is no news.

 

Besides, TCrB is and will be (most likely) a recurrent nova, NOT a supernova. Read Wikipedia to clarify the differences, pls. 



#30 Starhunter249

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 01:59 PM

Reading the article it should be clarified:

LITERALLY NOTHING has changed with respect to what has already been known now for several months or even a year or so. There is no news.

 

Besides, TCrB is and will be (most likely) a recurrent nova, NOT a supernova. Read Wikipedia to clarify the differences, pls. 

I know the difference between a super nova and a recurrent nova. Just a slip of brain. Dr. Brad Shaefer was quoted on spaceweather.com, "Our best estimate for the time of eruption is close to now," That statement got me pretty excited and eager to stay awake on a late summer evening despite the fact I have to get up early tomorrow for work. 



#31 Redbetter

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 03:29 PM

The dates corresponding to Schaefer's window were/are:

Earliest expected 2/6/24

Center of estimate 5/25/24

End of estimate range 9/12/24

 

We are a little over a month past the predicted center of the estimate.  Schaefer's prediction is dependent on a pre-eruption dip in brightness observed before the 1946 event.  It could be right, but he could also be mistaken.

 

The previous nova dates were 5/12/1866 and 2/9/1946 from what I understand.  That is ~79.75 years by my math.  Going by that period alone one might expect the next nova around 11/8/2025.  However, we really do not know how much the period might vary.

 

The supposed 1787 (around Christmas) event would have had a shorter period, about 78.4 years or something like that.  On that period the peak might occur in ~July of this year.  Obviously, the real potential range is a lot wider than the prediction.


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#32 azure1961p

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 03:48 PM

No doubt Stan you can see it's companion star yes? The bridge of material?

 

Pete



#33 stanislas-jean

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Posted 27 June 2024 - 04:38 AM

He Pete you see here a companion!

Glad for you.

 

The sky being openned yesterday evening I shooted T Crb 2 times, and still nothing changed until.

The forecast emitted by gents are on an hypothetic information.

If the sky will be opened this coming night I will have a shot....and so.

The response remains again from gents having a look when possible locally: the world is hudge, sothat sharing from any location, the coverage would be enough for the collection of the brigthness during the burst and after.

My opinion.

 

Here is:

 

resized_T Crb 26.06.24 3min.jpg

 

Good skies.

Stanislas-Jean


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#34 Special Ed

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Posted 27 June 2024 - 08:47 AM

I am one of those who thinks we just have to keep checking since T CrB is not running on a train schedule, so I appreciate S-J's updates.  I always check Corona Borealis visually when I am out--last time I had the opportunity was June 12th.  I also take an occasional image with my Seestar--I am keeping them to 1 minute exposures each time for comparison purposes.

 

A friend of mine checked June 26th, but still could not see T CrB naked eye (it should stand out next to epsilon CrB when it blows).  So we have our own little network of watchers that is part of the global patrol that S-J mentioned.  CN is part of that network, too.  I feel confident that we will hear something in a timely manner.  smile.gif   Can't guarantee that the weather will cooperate, though.  tongue2.gif


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#35 Fabricius

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Posted 27 June 2024 - 09:38 AM

you can see it's companion star yes? The bridge of material?

T CrB is a spectroscopic binary. We cannot see the companion star or the bridge of material.



#36 Starhunter249

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Posted 27 June 2024 - 09:56 AM

Skies were good last night, but my mind and eyes were not. Stayed up until 10:30 P.M and couldn't keep awake any longer. I was just using binoculars. I couldn't justify setting up scope and phone mount only to bring it back inside an hour or so later. I was feeling tired before the sun went down. 10 years ago, I could stay up late and still get up early but age has caught up with me. I was hoping my excitement would carry me to midnight. Trying again tonight. Definity going to consume coffee Friday evening and sleep in Saturday morning and repeat Saturday evening.

 

Looking forward to reading everyone's first reports of this recurring nova event on cloudy nights.

 

Wishing Clear, Dark, and Transparent Skies to you all,



#37 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 27 June 2024 - 04:20 PM

There's been an article on T CrB on the Space Weather site for the past two days.

 

https://www.spacewea...th=06&year=2024

 

There's also a T CrB watch on the right side of the page.

 

T CrB NOVA WATCH
today: m=10.3 (June 26.2)
yesterday: m=10.4
more: AAVSO data | sky map

 

Explanation: When the nova explodes, the visual magnitude of the star (m) will jump from +10 (invisible to the naked eye) to +2 (about as bright as the North Star).


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#38 RazvanUnderStars

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Posted 27 June 2024 - 07:30 PM

I think SpaceWeather hyped up the thing a bit and it's not clear if they actually interviewed Prof Schaefer again (if so, I would have expected more comments from him) or just took the middle of the prediction interval as "it must be happening now". The interval is still wide: plus/minus 4 months and that's still not covering 100% probability of eruption so it could happen even later.

 

More, there are other factors: the model is based on a single prior eruption so there is no guarantee this time it's going to happen identically. It's like measuring the height of a single person and assuming all others will be the same. Ok, fair, the height of a random person will give a ballpark but still, there will a variance that cannot be quantified until a large number of persons are measured.

 

Another factor is the dimming itself: as the paper notes, "the dimming must be extrinsic to the red giant, and this can only mean by dust which somehow comes into the line-of-sight.  However this dust is formed, this plot of the 1945 Pre-eruption Dip is what drives our expectation for a Pre-eruption Dip starting around 2023 for the upcoming eruption". We don't observe the state of the white dwarf directly, only the effect of that dust. Is the dust predictive of a nova explosion, however? Perhaps but the author is be sure either. Could there be an orbiting mass of dust that's unrelated to the nova?

 

That said, tonight is clear here so I'll have a look and hope it goes boom right then grin.gif


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#39 Redbetter

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Posted 27 June 2024 - 11:26 PM

I don't believe the ~7.2 month range covers more than about 50% of the probability of the eruption, and possibly much less.  The prior cycle length alone would suggest November 2025.  But the cycle length is likely not fixed, either.  We simply don't have much reliable data on this, and have only observed a single full cycle before now.

 

One of the major weaknesses of the prediction is that it is extrapolating everything this cycle from a single observed dip during last cycle, and assuming that the behavior will be the same this time.  (To Schaefer's credit, he notes this in the paper.)  A few months ago, I was of the opinion that he would probably turn out to be correct, and that the nova would occur within his range.  However, now that we are a month past the midpoint he projected, I see the likelihood of it occurring before the end of the range (~Sept. 12, 2024) as being no better than a coin toss.  

 

Even though I have increasing doubts about the prediction itself due to the specific timing, the closer we advance to the period of the previous cycle, the greater the possibility that the nova will occur each night.


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#40 stanislas-jean

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 04:14 AM

Hi,

Here is the status of yesterday evening, sky filtered by thick cyrrus clouds, magn star visible not less 3.

 

resized_T Crb 27.06.24 3min.jpg

 

Rather than predictions, be on when possible.

The challenge is to capture the light curve during the burst.

Discussing predictions is quite sterile.

Good skies.

Stanislas-Jean

 

 



#41 yuzameh

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 08:19 AM

 
It would be something unprecedented for an accretion driven system to be clockwork precise, especially as the stellar winds from the red giant will be quite variable (that is, mass transfer will not be at a constant rate).
 
At first the roughly decade long 'high state' looked unprecedented, but it turns out when you look into it that not many people, maybe only one, followed T CrB up until the last outburst.  Why should they?  Novae didn't go boom twice and this looked far more nova than dwarf nova from its initial outburst (although both concepts will have been ill defined in those days, the latter likely not yet defined at all).
 
Someone also said somewhere that it's a spectroscopic binary.  Well, it is and it isn't.  I haven't checked but I'm not sure if it is a spectroscopic binary in the sense that the orbital signature has been detected and measured in its spectra.  It is a symbiotic system though, the name given to red stars that have spectra showing what was first thought to be an incongruous bunch of blue emission lines, later decided upon being a red giant star with a hot compact companion, usually a white dwarf for these objects (I don't think any are hot sdB stars, haven't checked).
 
It wasn't totally unprecedented, RS Oph may have been the first 'known' recurrent nova of the symbiotic subclass (U Sco and T Pyx don't have a red giant companion and are not exactly the same as each other even though sometimes lumped together, other claimed RN aren't necessarily proven as far as I have ever been able to tell, more candidates).
 
Some of it comes down to taxonomy.  Where does an RN start and an SyN end?  Lightcurves are mostly different, one very slow to ridiculously slow on fade, t'other fast.
 
And some are just called Symbiotic Stars that have bright states / small outbursts every few years.
 
R Aqr has a nebula around it, had an outburst some centuries ago leaving the nebulosity Ced 211 behind, and I think the odd pulse since then (over and above the Mira type pulsational variations : the red giants in Symbiotic Stars do tend to be Mira or SemiRegular variables, which is not the case for T CrB and RS Oph).  Is this a longer period RN ready to blow?
 
Or rather than some evolutionary trend of one sort leading to the other (start at RN, end up SyN, over time for example), maybe they're simply clines, gradients, similar objects differing only due to differing initial conditions (orbital separation, relative rate of evolution of the two stars, possibly independent evolution rather than the enforced evolution some companion stars undergo when the other star evolves and swells to red giant first, all sorts of variable initial states).
 
For a simpler, and less conjecture ridden and assumption ridden review of such objects use Burnham's Celestial Handbooks.  The science in there is often not wrong, just incomplete as newer things are known now.  One important feature, however, is he fully describes the systems phenomenologically, ie he tells you what happened, what the things did, and when, and what the aftermath was if known, rather than just chucking theory and dictating dogmatic personally generated computer models at you.  Sometimes when you read older descriptions like that you readily find that what some claims have been made not only don't add up, they are "not even wrong", as they seem to not relate to the facts at all on examination, or at least are an extrapolation that can be forced out of the facts but no more than umpteen other diverse extrapolations could, with no means of showing any to be uniquely preferable or demonstrably more accurate.
 
I initially obtained an outburst time in mid November 2025 plus or minus a long time by simply taking 1946 event - 1866 event and adding the difference to the 1946 event, which leads to Nov 25.  It's a completely naive interpretation with no meaning other than using what little data there are in a non-exaggerated extrapolation.  The precovery 1700s event may be valid and, somewhat expectedly, shows that there is not a fixed clock at work, however it is unconfirmed, so at best is circumstantial evidence based on near hearsay and the reputation of some past observer, itself only known because the author of the paper defines this reputation (I for one have never heard of this observer before, and nor copies are the original documents provided in the paper, merely references for out of context quotes).
 
As for the so called 1200s event, well that can't even be shown to be the same object, and some of the description is purely contradictory to what is known about T CrB outbursts (the description of its naked eye visibility lasting months, which is way off, days at best, also that is not likely a case of different explosions at different times, the close analogue RN RS Oph has been caught in outburst quite a few times and it follows the same pattern of short and sweet with fast rise and initial rapid decline (T CrB seems to have a post outburst bump, but this reaches nowhere near naked eye levels).
 
And stuff like that.
 
And yes we do have to keep hammering home about the predictions because the media are increasingly full of them, even the so called more serious astronomy targeted media outlets (althoughy why anyone reads stuff like the apocryphal space.com I have no idea, and astronomy has been invariably just spouting out the author(s)/institute  provided press release for years, and if they are institute provided you know the final draft came from PR and media relations and NOT the scientists).
 
If it blows up tonight, or before Sept 2024, it'll just be sheer coincidence.
 
If it doesn't, well, more prediction will come up, with some excuse based on some re-fudging of the old info.  A similar thing happened with this Sunspot maximum.  The Sun is going stop, they cried, this maximum will be almost non-existent, and start at that time, and go on that long.  After several months of advanced wrongness as far as the prediction went they revised the prediction model and then started use that quite different prediction as the baseline to compare what actually happened with.  Of late they seem to be ignoring that that prediction was way off too, a prediction for still nowhere as strong a maximum as is actually occurring.
 
This hype is another, like 'meteor storms' that are just enhancements, or good events but not "storms", or 'green' comets with massive tails that are actually only seen in their true glory by keen amateurs using dedicated equipment and taking long runs of innumerable frames and then stacking and processing them, and often not visible at all to visual observers unless they live up a mountain in the middle of a desert without a streetlight for ten miles.
 
This hype makes astronomers look like eccentric idiots, even more so than usual, and when professionals join in (for no good reason often) manages to fool even the amateur astronomers.
 
Where is the data?!  Should be the cry, followed by "Oi!  You can't push the data to end up with this theory" because, as the computer often told Kirk "insufficient data".

 

 

Short Version : what redbetter said.


Edited by yuzameh, 28 June 2024 - 08:21 AM.

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#42 yuzameh

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 08:23 AM

The point is this T CrB thing is actually far more interesting both individually and within its astrophysical context than the over simplistic bovid faeces hype premature ej explosion prediction.



#43 Starhunter249

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 11:01 AM

From Spaceweather.com today. Brightness slightly increase but 0.2 magnitude. 

 

T CrB NOVA WATCH
today: m=10.2 (June 28.1)
yesterday: m=10.4

 

This recurrent nova is new to me and I have been reading more about it. I was under the impression that when it has consumed sufficient quantities of hydrogen from its Red Giant binary companion that the nuclear fusion of the additional 80 year accumulation of mass would be sudden and rapid. Could this be a gradual brightening and then the sudden flash of of a mass nuclear event? This reminds of a geyser, where you can have small pre-eruptions before the heated boiling water goes critical and does a massive eruption.

 

It was cloudy last night and will be again tonight. Saturday night is forecasted to be clear I am going to set up telescope for sure and film all night. Most likely, nothing happens. I wonder if the western or eastern hemisphere will get the first light from the nova.

 

Clear skies!


Edited by Starhunter249, 28 June 2024 - 11:02 AM.


#44 geovermont

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 12:15 PM

Regardless of when it gets around to brightening, I'm watching it when I can and reporting my visual estimates to AAVSO. It's a little surprising to me how few people actually go out and look at it on a given night and make a report. If only the weather would cooperate more--I've only had four viewing sessions of it under dark sky in the past month.



#45 Fabricius

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 03:10 PM

It's a little surprising to me how few people actually go out and look at it on a given night and make a report.

OK, here's my report:

telescopic observations for decades: slow variations in the range 9.6 - 10.6m, easily visible in small telescopes.

Cloudless nights this week, but not dark enough to set up the scope (grey summer nights).

Only naked eye observations, all around 21.30 UT:

24.06.2024 - T CrB invisible

25.06.2024 - T CrB invisible

26.06.2024 - T CrB invisible

27.06.2024 - T CrB invisible

28.06.2024 - T CrB invisible
 


Edited by Fabricius, 28 June 2024 - 04:55 PM.

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#46 Special Ed

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 09:19 PM

Here is a new article about T CrB by Bob King with lots of background info.

 

https://skyandtelesc...dium=newsletter


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#47 stanislas-jean

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Posted 29 June 2024 - 07:08 AM

Hi,

Thanks a lot Michael for the useful link.

Had a look (with ss50 yesterday 28th on 21H UT and visually) and the status is still stable.

Will have a look this evening if the sky open (even with magn2 stars only accessible visually and with the ss50)

Good skies.


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#48 stanislas-jean

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Posted 30 June 2024 - 04:13 AM

Hi,

Did shots yesterday evening the 29th separated by hours (until 23H UT).

The magnitude is still glued at its overall level.

Good skies.

Stanislas-jean



#49 Starhunter249

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Posted 01 July 2024 - 11:33 AM

From Spaceweather.com July 1, 2024

 

T CrB NOVA WATCH
today: m=10.0 (July 1.13)
yesterday: m=10.2



#50 Special Ed

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Posted 02 July 2024 - 08:39 AM

I looked at Corona Borealis today, 2 July 2024 0220 UT with the unaided eye.  All the main stars in the arc of the constellation were visible.  T CrB was not visible.


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