429 replies to this topic

[impreza276]

I have been waiting to buy tickets for the Maryland Renaissance festival. When sales opened yesterday the site was malfunctioning so they disabled it. Still under maintenance this morning. I went out to take care of a few errands and came back an hour ago, only to find all pass sold out within 3 hours!

[Skywatchr]

I have been waiting to buy tickets for the Maryland Renaissance festival. When sales opened yesterday the site was malfunctioning so they disabled it. Still under maintenance this morning. I went out to take care of a few errands and came back an hour ago, only to find all pass sold out within 3 hours!

Your errands took too long.   That stinks though just because of their site crashing.  I missed tickets to BFSP one time because I (and many others) never thought they would sell out so quickly.  As Maxwell Smart would say "missed it by > < that much"   Which was literally only by 6 minutes. DoH!

[Skywatchr]

 

Perhaps - to be 'fair' - the star party organizers need to move to a 'lottery'. That way even those who don't check every day can have a shot at a ticket.

I am no fan of "lotteries" whatsoever.  That would be more of a PITA for the club than the previous mail-in registration window.  In a lottery, everyone must pay to enter, then 1) Be disappointed to find out you lose which is discouraging, especially after paying. 2) The club would have to deal with all the refunds for the "losers".

Announce the date and time registration will be open no less than 3 days (a week might be better) ahead of time (for those that check the website), and let the chips fall where they may.

The Family option of 5 Must be Immediate Family Only  - Parents and offspring.  That must be enforced.  Not this "my long lost cousin Bllly and his uncle Bobby, etc." cheating stuff.  If someone gets caught "cheating", you're out permanently.  That will deter that behavior, and leave others to have a better chance of getting registered honestly.  I've missed out before, shrugged it off, and went about my business waiting for next year.  It's not like a star party is a "life and death, must attend" event.  A few times in the past I went up Saturday morning to check out the vendors, the swap tables, walked around to chat with a few people, maybe even get a snack from the food vendor.  Then went back home in the evening taking a nice country ride.

Like anything else, "seating is limited".
 

[Rich_W]

I'm hoping I'll get a ticket, but if I miss I'm thinking to come up anyway and try observing on the public side. I've walked around over there in the daytime but never observed from that side. What would that be like ? More light interference I'm sure. 

[Skywatchr]

I'm hoping I'll get a ticket, but if I miss I'm thinking to come up anyway and try observing on the public side. I've walked around over there in the daytime but never observed from that side. What would that be like ? More light interference I'm sure. 

I haven't walked over there myself, but the old airstrip area has some great wide open horizons.  Just try to pick a spot where car lights from the parking lot, and the roads will be less likely to bother you.  I know there were some dirt mounds to help prevent light from getting to the observing field, and as barriers to keep people from driving into the airstrip area from the parking lot..  You might find a great "shaded" area behind one of those mounds, and not have to walk very far carrying equipment.

[Rich_W]

I haven't walked over there myself, but the old airstrip area has some great wide open horizons.  Just try to pick a spot where car lights from the parking lot, and the roads will be less likely to bother you.  I know there were some dirt mounds to help prevent light from getting to the observing field, and as barriers to keep people from driving into the airstrip area from the parking lot..  You might find a great "shaded" area behind one of those mounds, and not have to walk very far carrying equipment.

Thanks, that's helpful.  Yeah, I thought surely it ought to be workable and I'd bring a lightweight set-up. I already have a room reserved in town so that's easy. And at least I'm there. (Even so, I hope I get a ticket.) 

[George N]

I'm hoping I'll get a ticket, but if I miss I'm thinking to come up anyway and try observing on the public side. I've walked around over there in the daytime but never observed from that side. What would that be like ? More light interference I'm sure. 

 

That *could* work - especially if you add in a few days before/after the star party. Remember - BFSP - unlike CSSP - is only 2 nights. It doesn't include Thursday night. Last year my best observing night (smoke almost gone, seeing good) was Sunday night - about half the field was still full.

 

I would "jump" on a registration for one of the 30 campsites on the North side as soon as you lose a chance for a star party registration. Some of them are actually out in the open on the edge of the old airfield - and I think they are all are just a short walk to the airfield. They tend to be full up with college kids and such looking to do exactly what you propose. It is probably too late for a room at any hotel, b&b, etc - within 50 miles of the park.

 

One year at BFSP I 'hosted' a young lady at my 20" Dob most of both nights. She was a 30-year-old lawyer from Washington DC - she and two girlfriends had come to Cherry Springs for a 'fun long-weekend camping trip' - but the other two had had enough 'fun' by Friday and left - while she decided to stay even if alone. They had no idea about the star party. She had an interest in astronomy and was super-happy to fine the star party going on - met her at the food vendor's food tables. She had attended a few of the talks, walked around Thursday night for scope views and discussion. The only bad part for her was the long walk in the dark back to her campsite at 3:30 AM in the morning. It's longer than you think.

 

I've also read that PA's 'Ole Bull State Park' has even darker skies and if you don't have a neighbor with bright lights all night you can get some decent observing in. Link (https://www.dcnr.pa....es/default.aspx). Both it and Lyman Run are probably too far to use as a "base camp".

[Rich_W]

That *could* work - especially if you add in a few days before/after the star party. Remember - BFSP - unlike CSSP - is only 2 nights. It doesn't include Thursday night. Last year my best observing night (smoke almost gone, seeing good) was Sunday night - about half the field was still full.

 

I would "jump" on a registration for one of the 30 campsites on the North side as soon as you lose a chance for a star party registration. Some of them are actually out in the open on the edge of the old airfield - and I think they are all are just a short walk to the airfield. They tend to be full up with college kids and such looking to do exactly what you propose. It is probably too late for a room at any hotel, b&b, etc - within 50 miles of the park.

 

One year at BFSP I 'hosted' a young lady at my 20" Dob most of both nights. She was a 30-year-old lawyer from Washington DC - she and two girlfriends had come to Cherry Springs for a 'fun long-weekend camping trip' - but the other two had had enough 'fun' by Friday and left - while she decided to stay even if alone. They had no idea about the star party. She had an interest in astronomy and was super-happy to fine the star party going on - met her at the food vendor's food tables. She had attended a few of the talks, walked around Thursday night for scope views and discussion. The only bad part for her was the long walk in the dark back to her campsite at 3:30 AM in the morning. It's longer than you think.

 

I've also read that PA's 'Ole Bull State Park' has even darker skies and if you don't have a neighbor with bright lights all night you can get some decent observing in. Link (https://www.dcnr.pa....es/default.aspx). Both it and Lyman Run are probably too far to use as a "base camp".

Yes, I have a room in Coudersport Wednesday thru Sunday so I'm set to be there. Just contingency planning in case I miss out on the BFSP tickets. I missed the CSSP last month and I need a few nights of Cherry Springs ! 

[George N]

I am no fan of "lotteries" whatsoever.  That would be more of a PITA for the club than the previous mail-in registration window.  In a lottery, everyone must pay to enter, then ......

 

I'm sure that there's some 'software' that could take names - no money - and randomly select 500 registrants - inform everyone of who the winners are - and put everyone else on an ordered 'wait list'. If 10 'selected' back out - the first 10 on the list get an offer. Pay after you are selected. The club would just need someone to run the software.

 

Or -- they can use the 'system' used for rooms at Hartness House in Springfield VT for Stellafane -- you get a room when some older friend or relative dies and leaves you their room registration for the next 50 years! I'm told some other hotels/campsites/b&b in the area are also booked up years in advance - and and at least in the past - they add 20% or more on Stellafane weekend. At one time Don Yeier of VERNONscope use to set up an eyepiece/scope sales table in the living room of Hartness House - don't think he ever actually made it over to the Stellafane site (they don't allow commercial vendors at Stellafane).

 

Or maybe we could have an "Astro Physics like" wait list - complete with buy/sell of your place in line? 

 

But anyway - until they somehow make the 'Astronomy Field' 25% larger - I don't see a solution -- and like my friends, I was rather unhappy with last year's crowding with scopes & tents set up right on top of each other (my fault for arriving late on Thursday I suppose - and needing a large area for my 20" Dob, little sky track imager, etc.) So I'm far from miffed about not going this year - especially being in my Adirondack cabin 10 steps from SQM=21.85 sky on a 16-mile-long wilderness lake.

Edited by George N, 07 July 2024 - 10:37 AM.

[George N]

.... I missed the CSSP last month and I need a few nights of Cherry Springs ! 

Suppose to be clear there tonight! (7/7/24) -- thinking of taking a 'quickie' small scope and Milky Way movie tracker rig - sleep under the cap of my pickup in the morning for a few hours - home for lunch.

[GlobularLover]

But anyway - until they somehow make the 'Astronomy Field' 25% larger - I don't see a solution -- and like my friends, I was rather unhappy with last year's crowding with scopes & tents set up right on top of each other (my fault for arriving late on Thursday I suppose - and needing a large area for my 20" Dob, little sky track imager, etc.) So I'm far from miffed about not going this year - especially being in my Adirondack cabin 10 steps from SQM=21.85 sky on a 16-mile-long wilderness lake.

Couldn't space be freed up -- and thus more tickets available -- if we knew how much space individuals were taking up ?

 

Here's what I mean:

 

My group that goes to CSSP and BFSP is comprised of 4 individuals.  2 of us no longer camp out (our camping footprint was small but our cars took up space) and we stay at B&Bs or motels, so we take up hardly any space.  1 person camps out in a big tent and has a car and the other person does have a trailer so that's the big space taken up (trailer + car + small scope area).

 

My point is....there's a big difference if people have trailers/RV's on the field.....stay on-site or at B&Bs/motels (no cars then)...and whether each registrant is in fact 1 or 2 or even 3 people (family, spouse tag along with adult astronomer).

 

I know that there are probably more campers and RVs attending as Covid-19 caused a boom (our member got his in early-2020).  So that takes up lots of space.....OTOH, other people might be doubling-up or staying off-site and taking their cars with them.

 

If there's a way to track and organize this it might help with the spacing and the number of tickets that could be sold until the area is cleared for more than the 450-475 people and however many registrants.

[Skywatchr]

But anyway - until they somehow make the 'Astronomy Field' 25% larger - I don't see a solution -- and like my friends, I was rather unhappy with last year's crowding with scopes & tents set up right on top of each other (my fault for arriving late on Thursday I suppose - and needing a large area for my 20" Dob, little sky track imager, etc.) So I'm far from miffed about not going this year - especially being in my Adirondack cabin 10 steps from SQM=21.85 sky on a 16-mile-long wilderness lake.

The real problem is the way people set up taking up too much real estate. That forces others to have to crowd closer together.  At CSSP 2023, there were some scopes set up 20ft or more from their "site" and had cables run.  That type of setup blocked off enough area for at least 10 others who could have fit there instead of crowding somewhere else.  Then there are some that block off access to some clear "pockets" with otherwise plenty of room.

Some set up right in the middle of an area, then spread gear out hogging the space around them.

Right behind me relatively close to the southern end of the field, there was some open space, but it was cut off because of the way some had parked their vehicles and set up camp.  Some cones need to be put up to ensure access to those pockets of the interior.

There is still plenty of room if people would stop the hogging, and pay attention.
 

[GlobularLover]

The real problem is the way people set up taking up too much real estate. That forces others to have to crowd closer together.  At CSSP 2023, there were some scopes set up 20ft or more from their "site" and had cables run.  That type of setup blocked off enough area for at least 10 others who could have fit there instead of crowding somewhere else.  Then there are some that block off access to some clear "pockets" with otherwise plenty of room. Some set up right in the middle of an area, then spread gear out hogging the space around them. Right behind me relatively close to the southern end of the field, there was some open space, but it was cut off because of the way some had parked their vehicles and set up camp.  Some cones need to be put up to ensure access to those pockets of the interior. There is still plenty of room if people would stop the hogging, and pay attention.

A variation on what I said, but lots of overlap and agreement.

 

If we were to more effectively utilize space -- and maybe cars were parked away from sites -- would that free up space ?  Would the Park Rangers allow more people if the space allowed or is the cutoff people-related and not space-related ?

 

Land-wise, it looks like you could increase attendance by maybe 50% if you used all the land/space on the observing field and adjacent grass areas.

[George N]

Couldn't space be freed up -- and thus more tickets available -- if we knew how much space individuals were taking up ?

 

Here's what I mean:

 

My group that goes to CSSP and BFSP is comprised of 4 individuals.  2 of us no longer camp out (our camping footprint was small but our cars took up space) and we stay at B&Bs or motels, so we take up hardly any space. 

.......and whether each registrant is in fact 1 or 2 or even 3 people (family, spouse tag along with adult astronomer)......
 

If there's a way to track and organize this it might help with the spacing and the number of tickets that could be sold until the area is cleared for more than the 450-475 people and however many registrants.

One point I think GlobularL is missing is - IF you are on the Astronomy Field during one of the star parties - you need a ticket (except for young kids). So..... if you bring your non-astro spouse (to feed to the bears?? ) - or your specialty chef to prepare food in your RV -- they need a ticket. They may even develop an appreciation for - astronomy at some level - an appreciation of the nighttime natural environment - an advocacy for dark sky anti light pollution efforts. Such inspiration is part of the purpose of a star party -- which is not just an opportunity to observe under dark sky.

 

Otherwise - You would have to discuss this with the clubs and the park manager. All I know is -- the current 'people limit' was agreed upon some years ago by the clubs and park after a few early star parties (think they only had BFSP back then) when there was no limit, and they got 600+ -- and major problems.  Also, until just recently - the Park let the public observing participants onto the field up until 11:30 PM or so (on Saturday night) adding as many as 2,000 more 'people'. There are also sometimes one or more 'youth groups' that have special camping access during the star parties - adding around 50 or more additional people camping on the field. It's a state park. PA youth groups will always have a priority.

 

Additionally - the park management is concerned with "environmental impact" - basically damage caused by too many people (especially in wet weather - holes, stuck vehicle tracks - garbage left on the field - RV 'empty station' capacity) - not to mention the limited water supply, need for bathroom facilities, need for emergency access in case of illness or accident (big liability issue for the state).

 

Again - it is my *very limited* understanding that - the numbers allowed into the two star parties are established "tradition" based on major past problems caused by selling too many tickets in the early days. Somewhere along the line they came to the belief that 400 to 500 is "the right number" -- and it would take a lot to change that "tradition".

Edited by George N, 11 July 2024 - 04:43 PM.

[George N]

The real problem is the way people set up taking up too much real estate. That forces others to have to crowd closer together.  At CSSP 2023, there were some scopes set up 20ft or more from their "site" and had cables run.  That type of setup blocked off enough area for at least 10 others who could have fit there instead of crowding somewhere else.  Then there are some that block off access to some clear "pockets" with otherwise plenty of room.

 

Some set up right in the middle of an area, then spread gear out hogging the space around them.

 

Right behind me relatively close to the southern end of the field, there was some open space, but it was cut off because of the way some had parked their vehicles and set up camp.  Some cones need to be put up to ensure access to those pockets of the interior.

There is still plenty of room if people would stop the hogging, and pay attention.
 

 

Hm.... I'm surprised about that space at the far back end. People should definitely not lock up space or block others.

 

As far as the "personal paddocks" that some set up - they are real, and often something done by an astro club that want's to establish "their space" and limit access of non-club members. The club that runs BFSP does that for their own group (or they use to). You can complain - and spend the rest of the weekend next to an unfriendly hostile group. I've done that -- not fun! I was there one year (BF I think?) - set up my Obsession 20 F/5 Dob on a concrete pad the day/night before the star party. Next day a club showed up - said "This is our traditional area!" When I refused to move - they set up a screen tent so close to my Obsession 20 that I couldn't rotate it to half the sky! I gave up - took the scope down and moved it.

 

Anyway - as I said - I'm not attending BFSP 2024, nor are about 6 to 12 friends (unless they change thier minds) - and a lot of it is the result of last year's crowding and poor food vendor service.

 

I wish you all a happy clear dark star party with much enjoyment -- and remember -- that raffle prize you win was really supposed to be mine!  

Edited by George N, 11 July 2024 - 05:06 PM.

[impreza276]

Hm.... I'm surprised about that space at the far back end. People should definitely not lock up space or block others.

 

As far as the "personal paddocks" that some set up - they are real, and often something done by an astro club that want's to establish "their space" and limit access of non-club members. The club that runs BFSP does that for their own group (or they use to). You can complain - and spend the rest of the weekend next to an unfriendly hostile group. I've done that -- not fun! I was there one year (BF I think?) - set up my Obsession 20 F/5 Dob on a concrete pad the day/night before the star party. Next day a club showed up - said "This is our traditional area!" When I refused to move - they set up a screen tent so close to my Obsession 20 that I couldn't rotate it to half the sky! I gave up - took the scope down and moved it.

 

Anyway - as I said - I'm not attending BFSP 2024, nor are about 6 to 12 friends (unless they change thier minds) - and a lot of it is the result of last year's crowding and poor food vendor service.

 

I wish you all a happy clear dark star party with much enjoyment -- and remember -- that raffle prize you win was really supposed to be mine!  

That sounds like terrible behavior - Did you bring it to the attention of the staff? 

[Skywatchr]

Hm.... I'm surprised about that space at the far back end. People should definitely not lock up space or block others.

 

As far as the "personal paddocks" that some set up - they are real, and often something done by an astro club that want's to establish "their space" and limit access of non-club members. The club that runs BFSP does that for their own group (or they use to). You can complain - and spend the rest of the weekend next to an unfriendly hostile group. I've done that -- not fun! I was there one year (BF I think?) - set up my Obsession 20 F/5 Dob on a concrete pad the day/night before the star party. Next day a club showed up - said "This is our traditional area!" When I refused to move - they set up a screen tent so close to my Obsession 20 that I couldn't rotate it to half the sky! I gave up - took the scope down and moved it.

 

Anyway - as I said - I'm not attending BFSP 2024, nor are about 6 to 12 friends (unless they change thier minds) - and a lot of it is the result of last year's crowding and poor food vendor service.

 

I wish you all a happy clear dark star party with much enjoyment -- and remember -- that raffle prize you win was really supposed to be mine!  

I had similar issues.  One time I was about half set up in an open spot, then some clowns came from over 20ft away and tried to claim "we reserved this spot for our friends that can't make it until later".  I looked the guy square in the eye and said "This is first some, first served, there are no "reserved" spots for anyone, sorry for your buddies' loss of "privilege".  Then another from the group started walking over and tried to "convince" me I was in "their" spots. If they had been civilized instead of demanding, it may have been a different story.

Needless to say, "they" didn't like it, and I finished setting up.  Later on I told someone from CPO, and they had a "talk" with them.  I did get an apology from the two that tried to force me out.  I have no issues with the sponsoring club reserving their space as it is their "HQ" to operate from. But anyone else that tries to be demanding, tough noogies.

Another time someone with a YUUUGE RV backed in within 3 ft of my scope claiming it was his "spot".  That time others also told the guy as well not to be so ignorant.  Guess who ended up moving the RV? That was all while there was a spot large enough for two large RVs only 30ft or so away.

 

So, do you want me to "reserve" a spot for you George?  
 

[Skywatchr]

 

and remember -- that raffle prize you win was really supposed to be mine!  

I'll make a note of that.

[Ac2aj]

I had similar issues. One time I was about half set up in an open spot, then some clowns came from over 20ft away and tried to claim "we reserved this spot for our friends that can't make it until later". I looked the guy square in the eye and said "This is first some, first served, there are no "reserved" spots for anyone, sorry for your buddies' loss of "privilege". Then another from the group started walking over and tried to "convince" me I was in "their" spots. If they had been civilized instead of demanding, it may have been a different story.
Needless to say, "they" didn't like it, and I finished setting up. Later on I told someone from CPO, and they had a "talk" with them. I did get an apology from the two that tried to force me out. I have no issues with the sponsoring club reserving their space as it is their "HQ" to operate from. But anyone else that tries to be demanding, tough noogies.
Another time someone with a YUUUGE RV backed in within 3 ft of my scope claiming it was his "spot". That time others also told the guy as well not to be so ignorant. Guess who ended up moving the RV? That was all while there was a spot large enough for two large RVs only 30ft or so away.

So, do you want me to "reserve" a spot for you George?

Just another good reason why I'm done going to both of these star parties. It's just not worth it anymore for the 6 hour drive

[George N]

.......

 

So, do you want me to "reserve" a spot for you George?  
 

IF ..... you be bringin' a 36-inch and NV -- I might just drive all the way down from the central Adirondacks for a few nights.  

[George N]

That sounds like terrible behavior - Did you bring it to the attention of the staff? 

As a member of an astro club that observes together often -- I can just sort of understand how an established group wants to be close to each other. It's very nice to be able to look thru the same folks' "big Dob" that I've been observing thru since the mid 1990s. My group often has 4 or more Dobs 16, 18, 20, 22 -- plus some nice imaging gear, etc -- we do like to have easy nightime walking between scopes, etc. But we have always welcomed other folks - and have met a lot of new friends that way. Other groups are not so outsider friendly.

 

No, I didn't mention it to the star party staff - or the Park Rangers. Other than the work of taking a 20" Dob down and relocating it 20 yards away - I didn't suffer any other problems. Complaining was not worth the risk of antagonizing the group more - and there were at least 15 of them and just me.

 

BTW -- I had a friend with a similar happening at Stellafane about 5 years ago. A club set up their collective screen tent right next to his Obsession 20 - he would lose half the sky. When he explained it to them - they quickly moved their tent! I fully understand that some folks have no idea how big a circle a big Dob sweeps out when observing when just looking at it covered during the daytime - or how long a line they will have in their neighborhood if they set up too close to one.

[George N]

Just another good reason why I'm done going to both of these star parties. It's just not worth it anymore for the 6 hour drive

Being retired I can "flex" a lot - and have been at the Cherry Springs star parties up to 3 nights before or after the star party nights - when it is quite possible to get better weather and the *true* new moon. Plus, from my NY Southern Tier location it's less than 3 hours - very nice drive. The worst part of BFSP 2023 for me - beyond crowding - was the poor food service - and ery slow and running out of food when it was too late to drive out to a resturant and get back before the gate was to be closed. The crowding was bad where I was too. Tents side-by-side -- scopes set up with just enough room to use them whle trying not to annoy the neighbors (who were mostly long time friends).  My new 20" F/3.5 doesn't have the big circle needs of my old F/5 -- but I do like to have a little table for 'stuff' like notes, star atlas, eyepieces - extra scope parts - and a chair for a visitor to sit in.

[Skywatchr]

Just another good reason why I'm done going to both of these star parties. It's just not worth it anymore for the 6 hour drive

Lucky for me it is only a leisurely 2 hour drive for me. I have made it in a lot less time only because it was getting too close to dark and put the pedal to the metal.   Otherwise for me the whole journey to, there, and back is an all in one experience.

 

I can ask you the same question I asked George. Do you want me to "reserve" you a spot?  

 

A couple of friends and I, if we get tickets, are planning on going up early and hope we arrive about the same time to get a spot for all of us. If not, we'll simply familiarize ourselves with the layout we end up with so we can hop back and forth after dark.  We're (mainly) visual guys, but a couple of my neighbors are imagers. We hope to also be close enough to "Star Party" together.

[Skywatchr]

IF ..... you be bringin' a 36-inch and NV -- I might just drive all the way down from the central Adirondacks for a few nights.  

Best I can do, is half that with an 18 and AI.  Averted Imagination.

[George N]

Best I can do, is half that with an 18 and AI.  Averted Imagination.

In a sea of 72mm APOs with little red cameras -- you might be the King of the Visual Observers! 

 

Add some free snacks on your observing table and you will have long lines waitin' at that telescope - for a look at the *real* Universe.

 

I could spend a lifetime of clear dark-sky nights with an 18 and a few good eyepieces!

 

I'll be thinking of you all at Cherry Springs while I'm on the wilderness shores of Indian Lake NY -- under Bortle 2 sky - with a cozy cabin 20 yards away. Here's to some fantastic weather and times at BFSP 2024!