429 replies to this topic

[John O'Hara]

Crowding at star parties is nothing new.  While attending one of the early years of the Mason-Dixon Star Party while it was still held at Spring Valley County Park (south of York, PA), I set up my 6" f/8 A-P refractor on the field and then made some rounds to see other scopes.  When I returned to my scope, someone had set up their tent literally touching one of my tripod legs!  I could not view to the south without stepping on their tent.  As with most star parties in Pennsylvania, attendance waned when Cherry Springs became popular.  But in the early 1990s, Mason-Dixon could fill up. 

[GlobularLover]

Just another good reason why I'm done going to both of these star parties. It's just not worth it anymore for the 6 hour drive

The density issue seems to be the major issue for some of you, given past experiences.

 

Does that mean you would come to Cherry Springs either before/after a star party.....or just another weekend or New Moon night ?

 

You probably eliminate 75-80% of the attendance that way, maybe more.

[impreza276]

I come to check out all the cool scopes everyone else has. 

[GlobularLover]

But in the early 1990s, Mason-Dixon could fill up. 

I'm not sure if that's the one, but a friend of mine who travels to lots of star parties mentioned on in the Mid-Atlantic area that used to get 300-400 people in the 1990's and early-2000's.  

 

Then right before Covid -- I guess around 2018 or so -- it was bordering on shutting down, attendance had fallen to well under 100 he said. 

 

Not sure if it was the M-D one.

[GlobularLover]

Some of you say the Food Service at the 2 star parties is lacking.  I'm not sure how the economics work for a vendor, but for me, as long as I can get something hot and late at night, that was usually good enough.

 

Are you looking for better quality food....more food choices...or longer hours from these vendors ?  Quite frankly, having ANYBODY there to me is a plus.

[George N]

Some of you say the Food Service at the 2 star parties is lacking.  I'm not sure how the economics work for a vendor, but for me, as long as I can get something hot and late at night, that was usually good enough.

 

Are you looking for better quality food....more food choices...or longer hours from these vendors ?  Quite frankly, having ANYBODY there to me is a plus.

For years the food vendors were OK -- yer basic "grill stuff" - breakfasts, etc. Nobody was going to bed hungry, but nothing fancy - and sometimes they even had a basic dinner that was not bad. For last year - maybe 2022 also? New vendors were not prepared for the number of people who attended - plus the spill-over when the 'public' across the street saw the food and headed right to the line! One of the vendors last year had the wrong dates - was totally unprepared - got some stuff going with a little grill under a pop-up tent. Both ran out of food while there were still long lines waiting. Now since most people head to the food after the final afternoon presentation, or relaxing for a while - it is too late to try to drive to a restaurant, eat, drive back - before the gate is closed - or before it becomes a last-minute rush to get the scopes ready to observe. If we knew that there would be no food - we could have gone somewhere at 2 or 3 PM.

 

So what? Well, if you are promised food (at least basic grill stuff) - and your vehicle gets blocked in on that field, making it impossible to drive out, or you wait for 90 minutes in a line only to be told "sorry, all the food is gone. want a cookie?" and it is now too late to drive to food ---- that's a problem! It makes a bad impression on the newbies trying a star party for the first time - or others depending on what they were promised.

 

If you know ahead of time that there won't be food - you can make decisions on that situation. It doesn't help that several of the best local restaurants in the area - used by astro-types for years - didn't survive the pandemic - and people need to find new places within a decent driving time. BTW - last year even the local 'store' down the road from the park ran out of sandwiches after star party people showed up and bought like 25 hoagies at a time for their friends. The owner said they would have gotten more in if they had known it would be a problem -- and the new pizza place in Galeton ran out of pizza and subs.

 

For me and some of my friends - 'the food issue' is a "no go" level problem. For others - it's not a big deal. Isn't diversity wonderful? Maybe it will open up some spaces - for those with grills.

 

Hopefully the issue is resolved. I don't think they had a problem at CSSP this year - maybe because of the weather-related low attendance? I will certainly be more prepared next time.

Edited by George N, 12 July 2024 - 11:26 AM.

[impreza276]

Some of you say the Food Service at the 2 star parties is lacking.  I'm not sure how the economics work for a vendor, but for me, as long as I can get something hot and late at night, that was usually good enough.

 

Are you looking for better quality food....more food choices...or longer hours from these vendors ?  Quite frankly, having ANYBODY there to me is a plus.

That was my approach, that I'd be happy if ANYTHING was available. However that ANYTHING was sorely tested. And I'm not one to be fussy about food quality. For coffee I'd be happy if they use a Keurig, and charge an extra premium for it if needed. It would be far better than what I was given

[GlobularLover]

Understood, guys.   

 

If I'm a vendor and I'm travelling a long way (?) to a star party the last thing I want to get wrong is the date...or the time folks will want food (including the late-night closing)....or running OUT of food.

 

Hot dogs and burgers keep for a while so a vendor should never run out of them.  They can always be frozen if you over-order.

 

My group usually does dinner down the mountain so I never relied on the vendor, just gave them some business for coffee or a late-night snack that wasn't critical.  But I get how others may need it more.

 

It should be win-win for both the attendees and the vendor: captive audience willing to buy...food right there for those who want to stay on the field.  With attendance known for a sold-out star party, they should know what will sell...how many they need....and how much help they need, too.

 

Hopefully the logistics get fixed.

[GlobularLover]

One thing that may matter going forward:  some of the establishments that many of us utilized for breakfast/lunch/dinner are out of business or have closed.   There's a limit to how far people will drive, understandably.

 

Should/could mean more business for the on-site vendor.

[impreza276]

Just saw this in the feed and thought it would be useful to link it here. Possibly another dark sky park near Cherry Springs! https://www.cloudyni...-dark-sky-site/

 

@the poster, John O'Hara: I see you are in this thread

Edited by impreza276, 12 July 2024 - 01:31 PM.

[peleuba]

I'm not sure if that's the one, but a friend of mine who travels to lots of star parties mentioned on in the Mid-Atlantic area that used to get 300-400 people in the 1990's and early-2000's.  

 

In the late 1990's and early 2000's most of the food at the more popular star parties here in the mid-Atlantic was provided by May's Munchables.   They were excellent.  In the mid 1990's they started doing the York Astronomical Society's annual star party which routinely drew 300 or so people.  In the early 2000's as Cherry Springs became popular, both the CPO and ASH also used May's to cater their star parties.  See the photo of May's Munchables setup from the 2008 BFSP.  May's most famous menu item was the Cajun Burger.  It was excellent.

 

In 2009 or so  Bob May decided to retire and move to Florida.   After that in that the star parties at Cherry Springs did not have any good food options.  For a time, the folks that ran Foxes Pizza in the nearby town of Galeton did the food, but these folks were unprepared for the long hours, late nights, and number of astronomers who wanted food.  They were generally unpleasant to deal with and I stopped getting food from them.  To this end, I've spent considerable time traveling around the local towns looking for decent places to eat.  I've found a few and listed them above in Post #10 - see here

 

Bob May passed away a few years back.  

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Edited by peleuba, 12 July 2024 - 01:30 PM.

[John O'Hara]

This is a little OT, so I've started a new thread under the Light Pollution Forum concerning a possible new dark sky site near Cherry Springs.  See here:

 

https://www.cloudyni...-dark-sky-site/

[City Kid]

All this talk of overcrowding is kinda depressing. That's one reason I like the Nebraska Star Party so much. I think NSP could have 1500 attendees and still not be as crowded as it sounds like CCSP is. CCSP has been on my bucket list for some time and I still intend to get there after I retire but this thread has me thinking I definitely won't be going there during one of the star parties.

[GlobularLover]

All these star parties have seen HUGE gains in astronomers and guests who want to come.  Covid-19 really spurred lots of people to discover our little hobby. 

[Skywatchr]

Some of you say the Food Service at the 2 star parties is lacking.  I'm not sure how the economics work for a vendor, but for me, as long as I can get something hot and late at night, that was usually good enough.

 

Are you looking for better quality food....more food choices...or longer hours from these vendors ?  Quite frankly, having ANYBODY there to me is a plus.

I take my own "backup" food anyways.  If there is a food vendor, I will still happily purchase stuff from them, especially if it is mighty tasty!

 

Always be prepared. 

 

Even if a vendor is lined up to be there, something could happen that is out of their control.  Vehicle breakdown, grille stopped working, their supplier(s) had issues, or even, Heaven forbid, some sort of accident.

Being a mobile food vendor isn't easy, nor cheap. They still must be licensed (costs money), Vehicle maintenance/repairs, have inspections (can be costly), having enough capacity and storage for food on hand (costly), and even be able to "stock up" with enough is quite costly.  They do not get the food for "free" ya know, nor the propane to run the grilles.  Like a brick and mortar restaurant, they must turn a profit for the tons of work and hours they put in. The people must get paid a wage too.  And sleep, they do need sleep.

They aren't dishing out cheapo "microwave" sammies n stuff.  They actually cook.  And cooking takes time no matter what.

What they actually need, is a second vending truck, or a larger one.  May's Munchables (I miss Bob), had a trailer that had much more room in it. Plus another vehicle for on-site storage with refrigeration.

BFSP is only a couple of days.  It doesn't take much food to survive.  But it does take lots of coffee!  

[John O'Hara]

I take my own "backup" food anyways.  If there is a food vendor, I will still happily purchase stuff from them, especially if it is mighty tasty!

 

Always be prepared. 

 

Even if a vendor is lined up to be there, something could happen that is out of their control.  Vehicle breakdown, grille stopped working, their supplier(s) had issues, or even, Heaven forbid, some sort of accident.

Being a mobile food vendor isn't easy, nor cheap. They still must be licensed (costs money), Vehicle maintenance/repairs, have inspections (can be costly), having enough capacity and storage for food on hand (costly), and even be able to "stock up" with enough is quite costly.  They do not get the food for "free" ya know, nor the propane to run the grilles.  Like a brick and mortar restaurant, they must turn a profit for the tons of work and hours they put in. The people must get paid a wage too.  And sleep, they do need sleep.

They aren't dishing out cheapo "microwave" sammies n stuff.  They actually cook.  And cooking takes time no matter what.

What they actually need, is a second vending truck, or a larger one.  May's Munchables (I miss Bob), had a trailer that had much more room in it. Plus another vehicle for on-site storage with refrigeration.

BFSP is only a couple of days.  It doesn't take much food to survive.  But it does take lots of coffee!

I agree wholeheartedly.  One thing food vendors can't control is attendance.  The event could be fully booked, but bad weather can mean poor turnout.  This can make it a bust for vendors.

[impreza276]

Agreed with all the points about food preparedness, however the vendor can do a lot better. There must be forums out there where they can pick tips on how to have decent offerings in a cost effective manner. I was looking for something just tolerable to eat and was disappointed. Their coffee, I had no words for it. They were really nice and friendly, which makes it heartbreaking to criticize, but I struggle to understand how they cannot do so much better. To be clear, I am neither a foodie nor coffee snob. I regularly raid my local gas stations for low rent unhealthy fast food such as their hotdogs and tornados.

Edited by impreza276, 12 July 2024 - 08:42 PM.

[Skywatchr]

Agreed with all the points about food preparedness, however the vendor can do a lot better. There must be forums out there where they can pick tips on how to have decent offerings in a cost effective manner. I was looking for something just tolerable to eat and was disappointed. Their coffee, I had no words for it. They were really nice and friendly, which makes it heartbreaking to criticize, but I struggle to understand how they cannot do so much better. To be clear, I am neither a foodie nor coffee snob. I regularly raid my local gas stations for low rent unhealthy fast food such as their hotdogs and tornados.

Have you ever tried to be a mobile food vendor, especially in a remote location?  I have known many people through the years that were in, and some still are in, the food service industry. It's nowhere as "easy" as you seem to believe.  And the notion of "cost effective" is exactly what they do as a business. 

If you want "cheap" food, that's exactly what you'll get.

In 2023, everything I ate was more than just "tolerable", including the coffee.  The waiting in line was the worst part.  I gave him plenty of suggestions, and I am sure many others had as well.  Serve me up a Burger (or chicken sammy) and fries, with lots of Ketchup, and I'm fat and happy.  

I always take a coffee maker, and you're more than welcome to have a cup or three.  I'll have instant Hot Cocoa too.

[impreza276]

I have never tried to be a mobile food vendor but I've eaten from a huge variety of them. The vendor is not cheap and I am not looking for value for money either. I've already bought cookware for the next star party, however I'll still give the vendor first dibs and only resort to my food if necessary. It could be that I tended to buy food at off peak hours and later in the evening.

Edited by impreza276, 12 July 2024 - 09:35 PM.

[Ac2aj]

The density issue seems to be the major issue for some of you, given past experiences.

Does that mean you would come to Cherry Springs either before/after a star party.....or just another weekend or New Moon night ?

You probably eliminate 75-80% of the attendance that way, maybe more.

No I wouldn't go in the off times of the star party. I have dark skies that's good enough for my visual needs where I am. I only used to go to Black Forest and the CSSP for the star party. I loved walking around talking to people and looking at scopes. I loved the just relaxing in front of my tent during the day talking to people as they walked by. Many other parts of the star party as well but it's clearly not the same anymore. In my opinion and my opinion only I believe the advancement of astrophotography equipment with its ease to take pictures now has ruined what the star party was to me. Just my thought to what I myself has experienced .

[George N]

No I wouldn't go in the off times of the star party. I have dark skies that's good enough for my visual needs where I am. I only used to go to Black Forest and the CSSP for the star party. I loved walking around talking to people and looking at scopes. I loved the just relaxing in front of my tent during the day talking to people as they walked by. ......

Now that's "the star party spirit"   -- and a very understandable take on using the Park on other nights.

 

On the other hand - for me it's a little less than a very pleasant 3-hour drive - most on Interstate, plus nice back-woods PA roads too. Everything about the park is set up for observing - and I do love the wilderness vib ( a few friends set up humming bird feeders - mobbed fast! ). The pavilion is a nice place to hang out daytime - it does have AC power, lights, good WiFi. It's a nice spot for even just a single night for me - and weeknights can often feature less than 20 people - often including some of my friends. I've met some interesting people at Cherry Springs - several folks on business trips from the UK, one business traveler and amateur astronomer from Brazil. Again - I often see people I know. The fact that a good friend hauls a nice warm RV is great for those October nights when the temp gets below freezing late night. We've had 4 crisp clear nights in a row in October - just 4 people on the field (and lots of help with loading my 20-inch Dob). Cherry Springs still has lots to offer if you can make it on a week night - even if the moon comes up late night or doesn't set until midnight. I can remember several recent nights with my 20", a long-time friend's Obsession 20, and another guy's SDM 22" set up side-by-side - nearest other folks 75 yards or more away. It's also a good time when I'm into my imaging side - little chance to disturb a visual guy (especially when I want a look thru his telescope!!) - and a nice pavilion to sit in to process images during the daytime.

 

But -- if you have a 'happy spot' a lot closer - even if it's only Bortle 4 or so - I can see the logic of not doing the trip to CSSP.

[George N]

I agree wholeheartedly.  One thing food vendors can't control is attendance.  The event could be fully booked, but bad weather can mean poor turnout.  This can make it a bust for vendors.

Talking to several different ones - I was surprised to realize the risk here. At the much larger Stellafane the food vendor has a formal contract - and is guaranteed a hefty minimum fee just for showing up - enough to insure they won't lose money. But in this case they are feeding up to 2,000 people and need a staff of 6 or so. Nevertheless - Stellafane has been struggling the past few years with finding a food vendor - and now they even have a permanent food prep building.

[George N]

Agreed with all the points about food preparedness,....

I can understand it too -- but -- not providing what is promised (at least something to eat on-site) just doesn't work for me.... or 6 or so friends who don't plan to go this year - partly because of the food experience. << I'm not going because I'll be elsewhere under Bortle 2 sky - if I was not there, I'd be at BFSP '24 >> The result is - BFSP will be missing 16", 18", two 20" Dobs and maybe a 22" inch Dob - all of the owners of which loved having people at their scopes. Hopefully it will open up space for those with similar scopes and plans - and will now have a better chance at snagging a BFSP 2024 ticket!

 

Actually, one of my 6 friends (been at BFSP since the first one) won't be there because - he was fine in January looking forward to the solar eclipse - died of pancreatic cancer by late March. I mention this as encouragement to folks who might not take advantage of a good night - thinking they will get the next one. There might not be a 'next one'.

Edited by George N, 13 July 2024 - 11:01 AM.

[John O'Hara]

I can understand it too -- but -- not providing what is promised (at least something to eat on-site) just doesn't work for me.... or 6 or so friends who don't plan to go this year - partly because of the food experience. << I'm not going because I'll be elsewhere under Bortle 2 sky - if I was not there, I'd be at BFSP '24 >> The result is - BFSP will be missing 16", 18", two 20" Dobs and maybe a 22" inch Dob - all of the owners of which loved having people at their scopes. Hopefully it will open up space for those with similar scopes and plans - and will now have a better chance at snagging a BFSP 2024 ticket!

 

Actually, one of my 6 friends (been at BFSP since the first one) won't be there because - he was fine in January looking forward to the solar eclipse - died of pancreatic cancer by late March. I mention this as encouragement to folks who might not take advantage of a good night - thinking they will get the next one. There might not be a 'next one'.

I so resonate with the friend's aspect of Cherry Springs.  Going back to 1999, I've made good friends up there who all camp together.  While the new dark sky site in Cameron County is a welcome overflow area, it can't replace my "heart" connection to Cherry Springs.

[Dave Mitsky]

Crowding at star parties is nothing new.  While attending one of the early years of the Mason-Dixon Star Party while it was still held at Spring Valley County Park (south of York, PA), I set up my 6" f/8 A-P refractor on the field and then made some rounds to see other scopes.  When I returned to my scope, someone had set up their tent literally touching one of my tripod legs!  I could not view to the south without stepping on their tent.  As with most star parties in Pennsylvania, attendance waned when Cherry Springs became popular.  But in the early 1990s, Mason-Dixon could fill up. 

I attended the Mason Dixon Star Party a number of times when it was at the Spring Valley County Park, then at Codorus State Park (which was not a very good location due to light pollution from Hanover), and finally at the Shreveport Airport/Footlight Ranch near Wellsville.  The final location was a rather short drive from where I live and was just 11 miles to the southwest of the Naylor Observatory.