40 replies to this topic

[rrpallechio]

I have a NexStar Evolution EdgeHD 8" with a StarSense Autoguider. Due to cloudy skies and rain I haven't had it out in months. Last month we had a few days of good weather but I got sick. Starting tonight we're going to have at least 5 nights in a row with clear skies.

 

Prior to tonight, my experience with the Autoguider has been very good, as has my experience with SkyPortal. A year or so ago I was having issues, and Celestron did a warranty repair of my mount.

 

Last time I had the Evolution out was in December. I took it out today and set it up, then went out after dark to do an alignment. I use SkyPortal (my understanding is that SkySafari does not yet support the StarSense Autoguider.)

 

I did a Connect and Align. It went to three spots in the sky and did a successful plate solve each time. Then I sent it to Vega to do the calibration. After calibrating on Vega, I did a GoTo to Vega again to make sure the calibration was correct. It went to Vega, close but not exact, then did the thing that the autoguider does where it hones in on the target. But it moved slowly to Vega, and kept going. And going. And going. So I canceled it, powered everything down, reset the position of the OTA (I start with it level pointing east because North is blocked by trees).

 

I did another Connect and Align and it went to three points in the sky, reported that it did a successful plate solve, then gave me this message:

 

Alignment Failed. Alignment pointing error is too large. Please try another alignment.

 

So I did. Over and over and over with the same result.

 

I tried to trouble shoot. I have a Homebrew device from mlord that has a more reliable WiFi than the WiFi that comes in the mount. I took that off (powering down every time I made a change) and used the Celestron WiFi (Celestron 2F3). I got the same result.

 

Next I checked the time and location on my iPhone. It was correct. I double checked the location against a compass app on my phone. I checked SkyPortal settings and confirmed it was using the time and location from my iPhone. I uninstalled and reinstalled SkyPortal. That didn't fix anything either. So I finally attempted to align using the hand control, which I detest. It's 2024. Why do we have clunky hand controllers? But I digress.

 

So I powered the telescope off, pointed it East, leveled the OTA, and selected Autoalign from the Hand Control menu. The OTA slewed to one location and reported that it was aligned. Which surprised me. So then I used the Hand Control to do a GoTo to Vega. Vega was high in the East. The OTA pointed a little lower to the South East.

Then I decided to try SkyPortal again, this time with the OTA pointing North. It pointed up into the trees and reported a successful plate solve. When it was pointing at trees. Then it went to two other points in the sky, that were unobstructed, succeeded in plate solving, then reported the Alignment error I described above.

 

If anyone has kept reading this far, do you have any ideas?

 

I'm opening a ticket with Celestron.

 

[mad_astronomer]

For me starsense never worked with plate solving. I removed it and plate solving was done in a jiffy.

 

I think starsense is good for quick visual alignments, no so much with plate solving.

 

I sold it 

[mlord]

Whenever I "start over" with SSAG, I power-off my Evolution, loosen the clutches and manually re-level it and point it North (or wherever) again.  Then tighten the clutches, and power-on.  Then re-connect and run the alignment.   Seems to work for me, though I don't know how necessary all of that is supposed to be. 

[rrpallechio]

Whenever I "start over" with SSAG, I power-off my Evolution, loosen the clutches and manually re-level it and point it North (or wherever) again.  Then tighten the clutches, and power-on.  Then re-connect and run the alignment.   Seems to work for me, though I don't know how necessary all of that is supposed to be. 

Well, what I do is not too different. I use  either the HC or the SkyPortal app to point East and relevel, then power off/on the mount.

[rrpallechio]

Well, I submitted a ticket then had an online chat with Celestron. They are issuing an RMA for a repair under warranty and are sending me mailing labels. They want me to send them the mount, HC and SSAG.

[rrpallechio]

I sent the StarSense Autoguider camera and the mount to Celestron. Celestron replaced the motor control board and tested and is shipping them back. This is the third time they've replaced the motor control board, all under warranty.

[Paul Skee]

FWIW, I experienced a similar failure recently, but with an EQ mount, (an AVX) and the Nexstar+ HC. Used a SkySync GPS for time/location. Ran a polar align first and the indicated results were satisfactory. Performed an alignment and center calibration, then set the course to Vega. Started to slew in the general direction, then stoped, hesitated, and continued the slew at a very slow rate. It became obvious that all was not well. Powered down, restarted and got the same result. Puzzled, I removed the auto guider from the loop, restarted and did a "quick align". Another failure. I ran out of things to check and was pretty disappointed, thinking "now what am I missing?". It was then that, while scrolling through the HC menus, I came upon the "factory settings" option. I figured, nothing to loose. Ding ding ding. That was it. Everything fell into place just as it was supposed to do. Don't ask why, I don't know. Wasted about an hour, but learned a lesson. That option is in the menu for a reason.

[rrpallechio]

FWIW, I experienced a similar failure recently, but with an EQ mount, (an AVX) and the Nexstar+ HC. Used a SkySync GPS for time/location. Ran a polar align first and the indicated results were satisfactory. Performed an alignment and center calibration, then set the course to Vega. Started to slew in the general direction, then stoped, hesitated, and continued the slew at a very slow rate. It became obvious that all was not well. Powered down, restarted and got the same result. Puzzled, I removed the auto guider from the loop, restarted and did a "quick align". Another failure. I ran out of things to check and was pretty disappointed, thinking "now what am I missing?". It was then that, while scrolling through the HC menus, I came upon the "factory settings" option. I figured, nothing to loose. Ding ding ding. That was it. Everything fell into place just as it was supposed to do. Don't ask why, I don't know. Wasted about an hour, but learned a lesson. That option is in the menu for a reason.

For the first and second time I had motor control board issues I did the factory reset. Didn't help. The third time I didn't do the reset.  I opened a ticket with Celestron, then contacted them the next day. The guy asked me a couple of questions then said it's RMA time. But my third time it  did act a lot like yours.

[rrpallechio]

Celestron replaced the motor control board and tested and sent it back. I got it today and set up this evening and still have the exact same problem. I let Celestron know.

[mlord]

Right.  So by now you should have figured out that the motor control board is not the problem.  It could be a bug in SkyPortal, but not for YOU only, rather than also for the other hundreds of users with the same set-up.

 

So it's very likely to be a software issue, between the ears of the operator. 

Or a bad WiFi environment, eg. with nearby microwave ovens operating.

Think about it:  what other options are there?

 

Have you sought out other local astronomers with more experience, who may be better positioned to observe what you are doing and point out any errors?

 

EDIT:

Should you remain unconvinced by any of that, then you can use your HBG3 device to determine EXACTLY what is happening at the time of failure.  This device has some rather decent built-in bus/protocol tracing features.  It will require use of a PC, as well as the device normally being used to run SkyPortal.

 

The SkyPortal device should have a built-in GPS receiver, to auto-fill the error-prone date, time, timezone, DST, and Location information for the SkyPortal app.   So use a smartphone, or Android tablet, rather than an Apple tablet that could be lacking a GPS receiver.

 

Connect normally with SkyPortal, and complete the alignment process.  Then, connect the PC over WiFi to the same SSID, and use telnet to access the HBG3.  Assuming Direct Connect mode, this would mean:

 

   telnet 1.2.3.4 3000

   debug

   v

 

Alternatively, and better if it can be managed, would be to use a USB connection from the HBG3 to the PC instead of WiFi.  Use a serial terminal program (eg. PuTTY) at 115200 8N1 for the connection, and issue the same 'v' command to begin tracing.

 

Now cause the error to happen.  Collect all output from that debug session, and make it available for me to have a look.

 

Cheers

[rrpallechio]

Right.  So by now you should have figured out that the motor control board is not the problem.  It could be a bug in SkyPortal, but not for YOU only, rather than also for the other hundreds of users with the same set-up.

 

So it's very likely to be a software issue, between the ears of the operator. 

Or a bad WiFi environment, eg. with nearby microwave ovens operating.

Think about it:  what other options are there?

 

Have you sought out other local astronomers with more experience, who may be better positioned to observe what you are doing and point out any errors?

 

EDIT:

Should you remain unconvinced by any of that, then you can use your HBG3 device to determine EXACTLY what is happening at the time of failure.  This device has some rather decent built-in bus/protocol tracing features.  It will require use of a PC, as well as the device normally being used to run SkyPortal.

 

The SkyPortal device should have a built-in GPS receiver, to auto-fill the error-prone date, time, timezone, DST, and Location information for the SkyPortal app.   So use a smartphone, or Android tablet, rather than an Apple tablet that could be lacking a GPS receiver.

 

Connect normally with SkyPortal, and complete the alignment process.  Then, connect the PC over WiFi to the same SSID, and use telnet to access the HBG3.  Assuming Direct Connect mode, this would mean:

 

   telnet 1.2.3.4 3000

   debug

   v

 

Alternatively, and better if it can be managed, would be to use a USB connection from the HBG3 to the PC instead of WiFi.  Use a serial terminal program (eg. PuTTY) at 115200 8N1 for the connection, and issue the same 'v' command to begin tracing.

 

Now cause the error to happen.  Collect all output from that debug session, and make it available for me to have a look.

 

Cheers
 

Where to begin ...

 

I am totally open to the possibility that the problem is me, not the device.

 

My professional career was in I/T, including 25 years with IBM doing hands on work with my customers. Prior to working for IBM I was a Systems Programmer. I understand the trouble shooting process. With mainframe computers, and Windows PCs, I'm pretty good at it. I'm still learning with astronomy equipment but I don't see a failure and then throw up my hands and give up. I try to isolate the problem. So when this problem occurred I reproduced it with iPad and iPhone, with Evolution Mount WiFi and HBG3 WiFi, and with SkyPortal and the HC. SkySafari doesn't seem to support the StarSense Autoguider.

 

The second time I sent it back to Celestron I asked them to reproduce the problem before starting a repair. When I asked for a follow up on that the person who replied said he didn't know if they did that. Doing an alignment and failing to reproduce  the problem BEFORE beginning the repair would totally convince me that the problem was me, not them.

 

I also tried an autoalign with the HC. It prompted me for the current date and time, but not the location. With the StarSense auto align I was always prompted for location. I'm using the StarSense Autoguider now. With the HC the autoalign completed, but when I picked a star to GoTo it didn't point in the correct direction. It just occurred to me that when I was using the HC my HBG3 was plugged into the mount, so maybe it got the location from it and that's why it didn't prompt me for the location. But it did prompt me for the time.

 

When the problem fist occurred I was using my iPhone, which does have GPS. My iPad doesn't, but the HGG3 was plugged in at least once when I was using the iPad. I reproduced the problem both with and without the HGB3 with both the iPad and iPhone. Interestingly, without the HBG3 the iPad did have difficulty maintaining the connection, the iPhone didn't. Neither device was ever more than 10' from the mount. Oh, wait, you're Canadian. Neither device was ever more than 3 meters from the mount

 

I'm going to follow your procedure to collect data from the HBG3. I have USB cables galore and may already have PuTTY on my laptop. If not it will be.

 

I very much appreciate your help with this. If you are able to identify the problem as something I am doing wrong and guide me to a solution I will build a shrine to you in my backyard. If you determine it is a hardware problem ...

 

I've suggested to Celestron that after 3 motor board replacements it may be time for them to replace the mount. We'll see what they have to say about that Monday.

 

I don't know any local astronomers. There is a FB group for a local astronomy club but it is inactive. I'll reach out on the FB group to see if anyone can help me.

Edited by rrpallechio, 06 July 2024 - 02:37 PM.

[Minuam]

I do not know if you have NexStar+ HC?

 

Maybe you can buy used/new to see how one star align or two star align is working?

[rrpallechio]

I do not know if you have NexStar+ HC?

 

Maybe you can buy used/new to see how one star align or two star align is working?

I do have the NexStar+ HC.  The StarSense Autoguider requires it. Currently I own two NexStar+ HC and one StarSense Autoalign HC.

[Minuam]

I do not know if you have NexStar+ HC?

 

Maybe you can buy used/new to see how one star align or two star align is working?

 

Have you used NextStar+ HC for one star align or two star align without StarSense?

[rrpallechio]

@mlord, I put the output into the attached file.  Verbose Debug Output .txt   207.35KB   7 downloads

 

I connected my iPhone to the HBG3 WiFi. Then in SkyPortal selected Connect and Align. When I got the prompt to start the alignment I connected my laptop to the USB cable connected to the HBG3 device. Then I started the alignment. It did three successful plate solves and then gave me the failure message. I've attached a screen shot of that message. When I pressed Cancel in SkyPortal the trace ended.

Attached Thumbnails

• 

Edited by rrpallechio, 07 July 2024 - 01:17 AM.

[mlord]

I don't see any communication errors in the trace, though it does only show the final two SSAG plate solves (not the first one of the three).  The software looks well behaved, and the mount is doing exactly what the software is telling it to do.

 

The SSAG itself must be the unhappy component.  I have not yet deciphered the meanings of all of the data in the various SSAG messages, but in there somewhere it is the one reporting "Alignment pointing error is too large".   The software sees that, and then doesn't even bother asking the SSAG for guiding data, which it normally would do at that point.

 

So.. why is SSAG unhappy here?  Well, I see several possibilities:

 

1. Dirty/fogged camera lens?  My own SSAG no longer likes the IR-Filter I used with it until the latest SSAG firmware update.

 

2. The mount is not dead level, and/or the OTA was not dead level at the beginning?  This can all happen if one is trusting that teensy inaccurate bubble level on the tripod legs, rather than using a proper level that reads the same when flipped 180-degrees.

 

3. Too much moonlight, or street-lighting, or home-lighting.. being seen by SSAG as bright "stars" ?

 

4. Operator error somewhere else in there?

 

5. Faulty SSAG?

 

Oh, and the firmware on your HBG3 needs updating! 

Edited by mlord, 07 July 2024 - 09:08 AM.

[mlord]

See this recent post for a list of nearby Astronomy clubs:  https://www.cloudyni.../#entry13551785

 

Washington state:  https://www.go-astro...te.php?State=WA

"Washington" (state & DC):  https://skyandtelesc...&kw=washington

Tacoma: https://www.tas-online.org/about.php

Edited by mlord, 07 July 2024 - 09:20 AM.

[rrpallechio]

I don't see any communication errors in the trace, though it does only show the final two SSAG plate solves (not the first one of the three).  The software looks well behaved, and the mount is doing exactly what the software is telling it to do.

 

The SSAG itself must be the unhappy component.  I have not yet deciphered the meanings of all of the data in the various SSAG messages, but in there somewhere it is the one reporting "Alignment pointing error is too large".   The software sees that, and then doesn't even bother asking the SSAG for guiding data, which it normally would do at that point.

 

So.. why is SSAG unhappy here?  Well, I see several possibilities:

 

1. Dirty/fogged camera lens?  My own SSAG no longer likes the IR-Filter I used with it until the latest SSAG firmware update.

 

2. The mount is not dead level, and/or the OTA was not dead level at the beginning?  This can all happen if one is trusting that teensy inaccurate bubble level on the tripod legs, rather than using a proper level that reads the same when flipped 180-degrees.

 

3. Too much moonlight, or street-lighting, or home-lighting.. being seen by SSAG as bright "stars" ?

 

4. Operator error somewhere else in there?

 

5. Faulty SSAG?

 

Oh, and the firmware on your HBG3 needs updating! 

Well, I sent the SSAG, mount and HC to Celestron, so if there was any issue with the SSAG I would think they found it.

 

The SSAG had its cover on it when it was returned from Celestron and it wasn't removed until I tried to do my first alignment, after getting it back, and discovered I forgot to take the cover off. But I'll check that.

 

The new moon was Friday. There was no moonlight. I close the shades in the house and turn lights off. The neighbors have outside lighting but during the alignment the OTA is always pointed up and away from it. Plus I have a six foot fence that blocks direct lighting from coming into my yard. But I can check to make sure the lens is clean. But why would it have successful plate solves if the lens was compromised?

 

Before the first alignment I always check that the OTA is level. But after that I eyeball it. I'll check level on the OTA again tonight and see if that makes a difference.

 

Operator error? Could be, though I haven't identified it.

 

Can you point me to a link to the latest procedure for updating the HBG3?

 

I don't know why the first plate solve isn't in there. I started the trace before I started the alignment.

 

I have some ideas to try. I can put the SSAG on the other mounting plate on the OTA. I can put my finder scope back on the OTA and try out a manual align (yuck) with the HC. I can set up my AVX and try the SSAG there. I can try with my StarSense Autoalign camera and the associated HC.

 

What I would really like Celestron to do is tell me exactly what can cause this error. They said before it was the motor control board. I'm on my 4th motor control board since I first had a problem with the StarSense Autoalign.

[mlord]

..

But why would it have successful plate solves if the lens was compromised?

..

Before the first alignment I always check that the OTA is level.

..

Can you point me to a link to the latest procedure for updating the HBG3?

First off, no need to QUOTE EVERYONES ENTIRE MESSAGE IN YOUR REPLIES.

Doing so, just clutters things unnecessarily.

 

A plate-solve simply means the camera thinks it saw a star pattern that it recognized from the internal database.  One can "get lucky" with dirt, lights, wrong stars, etc.. and "solve" junk.     That's partly why it normally takes/solves three photos of the sky, reducing the probability of such a mistake down to just about zero.

 

Level the mount first.  You have an Evo, so use a 6" builders level on top of the horizontal orange ring at the base of the mount, checking level against the direction of each of the three legs.   After that (takes me about 90 seconds), then level the OTA.  Rotate the OTA 90-degrees horizontally after, and check that it still reads level.  If not, then the mount wasn't leveled, so start over.

 

Connect your HBG3 to your home WiFi, or to a mobile hotspot.  You can use SkyPortal to configure the WiFi SSID/Passkey for that, and then flip the red switch on the HBG3 up/away from the PCB.  It should connect and show an IP address within a few seconds.

 

Then use the side push-button on that device to find the OTA Firmware Update screen and follow instructions there.

 

Cheers

Edited by mlord, 07 July 2024 - 04:00 PM.

[rrpallechio]

Connect your HBG3 to your home WiFi, or to a mobile hotspot.  You can use SkyPortal to configure the WiFi SSID/Passkey for that, and then flip the red switch on the HBG3 up/away from the PCB.  It should connect and show an IP address within a few seconds.

 

Then use the side push-button on that device to find the OTA Firmware Update screen and follow instructions there.

 

Cheers

Not seeing a push-button. My device doesn't have the OLED feature, does that make a difference?
 

[rrpallechio]

Tonight (last night?) I took three steps forward and two steps back.

 

First, some background. I bought my NexStar Evolution from Adorama in May 2022. It was an "open box" item and they gave me a great deal on it, and assured me it was new and fully covered by warranty from the date of my purchase. When the Evolution arrived the mounting bracket for the StarSense Autoalign camera was already installed. All I had to do was slide the camera on it and tighten it down.

 

Unlike some others who have these telescopes, I always had to futz with calibration to get my GoTos to be close to the center. I didn't think too much of it, just figured other people knew more about what they are doing than I do (that still is the case).

 

I didn't always get along with the finder that came with the telescope, so I bought a Celestron RACI. The RACI uses the same mounting bracket as the StarSense Autoalign camera, and there are holes in the OTA to accept a second mounting bracket. With the OTA in the mount, from the back (diagonal side), the camera bracket is on the upper left of the OTA and the RACI bracket is on the lower right of the OTA.

 

Then I bought the StarSense Auto Guide camera (SSAG). It uses the same mounting bracket as the SSAA and the RACI. So I just attached it to the bracket I was using for the SSAA, and everything worked very well until recently when I started having the problem described in the first post of this thread.

 

I started having the problem I laid out above, alignment failures. mlord helped me running diagnostics and gave me some advice (using a real level makes a big difference )

 

I was thinking about the calibration issues I had for the SSAA, and also for the SSAG (though not as bad as the SSAA) and I started wondering if that mounting bracket has anything to do with it. It looks like it is on straight to me, but the screws in the slots of the bracket aren't "symmetrical", one is all the way to the right and one is in the middle.

 

So, tonight, I put the camera on the bracket I had been using for the RACI and did an align, and it succeeded. Then I did it again and it succeeded. Then I did it again and it succeeded. Then I moved the camera back to the other bracket and had two failures in a row. Then I moved it back to the RACI bracket and had two successful alignments in a row. The next thing I'm going to do is more closely examine that bracket that came with the SSAA that seems to be the source of my failures. I never did use the bracket that came with the SSAG, maybe I'll replace the SSAA bracket with that one.

 

Okay, so I got a successful alignment, multiple times. Next up was to do a GoTo to Vega. Vega was high in the sky but not at the zenith. But when I did the GoTo the mount pointed the OTA straight up and appeared to be trying to do a back flip before I stopped it. So I redid the alignment and retried, and got the same behavior. Even got it when I tried GoTos to lower targets. So I looked more closely at my SkyPortal screen and saw that the mount thought the OTA was pointing down and to the south east when it was actually pointing up and to the north west.

 

 

So I checked the settings, and they all looked correct to me:

 

I've obviously got something going on here, but I'm not sure what. Just to see what would happen I went into settings and changed my location to Latitude S and Longitude E. Just made things worse.

 

So somehow, my mount thinks my OTA is pointing down and SE when it is actually pointing up and NW.

 

Any ideas? I'm sure I must be missing something, but I don't know what.

Edited by rrpallechio, 08 July 2024 - 05:15 AM.

[mlord]

somehow, my mount thinks my OTA is pointing down and SE when it is actually pointing up and NW.

That happens when the OTA is installed backwards (upside-down) on the mount.

Show us a photo of your set-up.
 

Edited by mlord, 08 July 2024 - 01:54 PM.

[mlord]

Not seeing a push-button. My device doesn't have the OLED feature, does that make a difference?

Ah, an older one.  You'll have to visit https://rtr.ca/hbg3/ and follow instructions there, under the heading:

 

How To Install/Update The Firmware?

Edited by mlord, 08 July 2024 - 07:22 AM.

[rrpallechio]

Here it is:

 

Edited by rrpallechio, 08 July 2024 - 03:30 PM.

[mlord]

That looks like it is assembled correctly.

 

Another way one can get alignment failures is with one or more tripod legs sinking into the earth at any point during the session.