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*** Dust, scratches, air bubbles, oil particles on optics ***

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#1 denis0007dl

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 03:26 PM

​Im starting this thread, to share you my personal till TODAY, VERY SMALL part of my long years experience, all based to share it with you thankfully to that thread

https://www.cloudyni...l-user-reports/

 

​So, Im doing check test with every single eyepiece​, telescope, binoviewer, barlow and binocular, which pass through my hands using normal light + LED light.
​Most equipment was purchased NEW, and very very small quantitie was used.
​So lets start.
I will only discuss here optical components, and NOT mechanics!!!

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Eyepeices:

 

***recently purchased Takahshi TPL full double line + Takahashi TOE all focals in pairs for binoviewers usage, all have dust inside optics between lenses + some have like foggy lenses + some specks, and vewry few scratches on lenses inside

​***my Vixen HRs all of them ​have dust, specks, and layers or something foggy here and there​ on lenses inside

​***my previous ​new purchased Leics ASPH Zoom units (I had 3 new ones), ​all had dust, ​oil particles, specks, and layers or something foggy here and there​ on lenses inside + several scratches easily visible inside on lenses, and two AT lenses top and one on back

​***my previous Pentax XWs full line, some dust between lsenses, but very obvious foggy lenses parts + some scratches here and there every of them + some had chipped lens edges

​***Pentax old orthos with orange belt, used, all had dust, dirty lenses inside, and few had fungus + some small scratches on lenses + inside as well

***ZAO I and ZAO II eyepeices, all used, had several sets, all had some small dust particles, some had chipped lens edges, some had scratches on lenses inside and outside + some had coatigs delaminations

***TMB SMC, some used, some new, all had very small dirt on back lens + some had chipped lens edges + two had two very tiny air bubbles inside lenses

***Carl Zeiss various premium microscope eyepeices (I had MANY of them, and still have some), some had chipped lens edges, some had optical delaminations in cemented lenses, some had fungus inside, some had dust inside, some had scratches on lenses

***TeleVue Delos line, I had several new, some had dust particles inside, and all had fine scratches insie and two had on back and front lenses

***TeleVue Delite line, I had 6 of them new, and all had very FEW dust particles inside, but all had thousands of lens scratches inside, and very few on front and just 1 on back lens

***TeleVue Nagler T6, all was new, I had all of them in pairs, all was pretty much dirty inside, with foggy lenses + all had scratches inside and very few on lenses outer sides

***TeleVue Nagler T5 line, all were new, and they were way more cleaner than any from T6 line, and they had some chipped lens edges + few scratches on lenses in and 1 out

***TeleVue Ethos line, cleanest TeleVue line, had all singlets new, but two had scratches on lenses in and out, with very small number of dust particles inside

​***Explore Scientific all eyepeices, I had them all, new, they had exceptionaly clean optics inside and outside, and some had scratches on lenses in and out, while 9mm 120deg (I had 3 of them), had oil particles on inner lenses sourfaces, and ony 1 was free of oil particles, but all had few scratches on lenses

***cheaper China made brands, all had dust particles, scratches on lenses here and there, but no foggy lenses, some had chipped lens edges

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Binoviewers:

 

***Carl Zeiss binoviewers, MANY passed through my hands, and I still own several of them, I saw some air bubbles inside prisms, some had prisms and mirror scratches, prisms and mirror chipped edges, even optical delaminations in cemented beamsplitter like foggy part or like dirt or like fungus between cement, dust particles as normal

​***Baader Mark V, many passed through my hands, usual are many scratches on prisms sourfaces, saw some chipped prism edges, optical delaminations in cemented beamsplitter like foggy part or like dirt or like fungus between cement, dust particles as normal

***Denkmeier Binotron 27 and older ones, NOT many passed through my hands, and I saw some scratches on prisms, dust as normal, few chipped prism edges

***TeleVue BinoVue, many passed through my hands, optical delaminations in cemented beamsplitter like foggy part or like dirt or like fungus between cement, dust particles as normal, many of them had chipped prism edges, scratches on prism sourfaces

***Baader Maxbright II, over 15 passed through my hands, some had several chipped prism edges, some scratches on prisms (not as many as Mark V), some dust inside

***Baader Maxbright I, over 20 passed through my hands, I saw many chipped prism edges, MANY scratches on prisms, optical delaminations in cemented beamsplitter like foggy part or like dirt or like fungus between cement, dust particles as normal

***China cheaper brands, many passed through my hands, all had more or less dust particles, scratches on prisms, some had chipped prisms edges, very few I saw had air bubbles inside prisms

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Telescopes:

 

many brands passed through my hands over all those years, all had and still have dust particles between lenses more or less (where China new production making cleanest objectives today), many had chipped objective edges, many had many many scratches on lenses, some air bubbles inside lenses (my LZOs 180mm f/7 BTW have many many many scratchers and many small air bubbles inside lenses), some oil spaced lenses had some delaminations which looks even at normal light ugly, and two had obvious fungus between lenses while purchased new

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Binoculars:

 

many brands passed through my hands, and dirtiest of all when purchased NEW, was Swarovski 15*56 HD (scratches on lenses, foggy inner parts), while cleanest by far from all Canon 15*50 Is and 18*50 IS (still some very few dust particles and very very few scratches on eyepeices only), while Canon 10*42 IS and some dust particles inside + two scratches on eyepeice lenses, and one chipped lens edge easily visible. Other brands had obviously dust particles, scratches on lenses and prisms, chipped lens edges here and there, foggy lenses and/or prisms.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Conclusion:

 

being a perfectionist, al simply ADORING astro optics, for me its mission impossible to find anything perfect, and I learned that and reconciled with that, but I still staring into each new astro optic I get. Knowing that most of these absolutely DO NOT disturbing any optical performance and quality, Im still nowdays discussing same things with many world famous optics sellers (persons), distributers, optics makers companies via many many emails, Whatsapp, Viber and Messanger messages and phots + live phone calls classically or via Skype.

 

Some told me that I should NOT looking AT optics, and that I should looking THROUGH optics and see if optical performance is affected, and they are very probably right!

 

I do not want share with you MANY MANY ugly images I did over many years, because some could get heart attack LOL!

 

Kind regards,
Denis


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#2 Bob4BVM

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 04:49 PM

Wow, thanks for sharing your deep experience Denis !

Some of those top brands surprised me.

Apparently there is no such thing as a "clean-room environment" in use when these mfgr's assemble their products.  It seems that would be a good first step/best practice procedure ! 

It's not THAT hard /expensive to implement.  Semiconductor mfgrs have adhered to such for decades.  The results you found would certainly not fly in the IC mfgg world !

Cheers

Bob

  


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#3 scout

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 04:58 PM

Apparently there is no such thing as a "clean-room environment" in use when these mfgr's assemble their products.  It seems that would be a good first step/best practice procedure ! 

It's not THAT hard /expensive to implement.  Semiconductor mfgrs have adhered to such for decades.  The results you found would certainly not fly in the IC mfgg world !

Semiconductor manufacturers are massive multi-billion dollar corporations with unlimited budgets, not mostly smaller niche companies that assemble eyepieces for several thousand amateur astronomers. 


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#4 Mike B

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 04:58 PM

​Im starting this thread, to share you my personal till TODAY, VERY SMALL part of my long years experience, all based to share it with you thankfully to that thread
https://www.cloudyni...l-user-reports/
 
​So, Im doing check test with every single eyepiece​, telescope, binoviewer, barlow and binocular, which pass through my hands using normal light + LED light.
​Most equipment was purchased NEW, and very very small quantitie was used.
​So lets start.
I will only discuss here optical components, and NOT mechanics!!!
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Eyepeices:
 
***recently purchased Takahshi TPL full double line + Takahashi TOE all focals in pairs for binoviewers usage, all have dust inside optics between lenses + some have like foggy lenses + some specks, and vewry few scratches on lenses inside
​***my Vixen HRs all of them ​have dust, specks, and layers or something foggy here and there​ on lenses inside
​***my previous ​new purchased Leica ASPH Zoom units (I had 3 new ones), ​all had dust, ​oil particles, specks, and layers or something foggy here and there​ on lenses inside + several scratches easily visible inside on lenses, and two AT lenses top and one on back
​***my previous Pentax XWs full line, some dust between lsenses, but very obvious foggy lenses parts + some scratches here and there every of them + some had chipped lens edges
​***Pentax old orthos with orange belt, used, all had dust, dirty lenses inside, and few had fungus + some small scratches on lenses + inside as well
***ZAO I and ZAO II eyepeices, all used, had several sets, all had some small dust particles, some had chipped lens edges, some had scratches on lenses inside and outside + some had coatigs delaminations
***TMB SMC, some used, some new, all had very small dirt on back lens + some had chipped lens edges + two had two very tiny air bubbles inside lenses
***Carl Zeiss various premium microscope eyepeices (I had MANY of them, and still have some), some had chipped lens edges, some had optical delaminations in cemented lenses, some had fungus inside, some had dust inside, some had scratches on lenses
***TeleVue Delos line, I had several new, some had dust particles inside, and all had fine scratches insie and two had on back and front lenses
***TeleVue Delite line, I had 6 of them new, and all had very FEW dust particles inside, but all had thousands of lens scratches inside, and very few on front and just 1 on back lens
***TeleVue Nagler T6, all was new, I had all of them in pairs, all was pretty much dirty inside, with foggy lenses + all had scratches inside and very few on lenses outer sides
***TeleVue Nagler T5 line, all were new, and they were way more cleaner than any from T6 line, and they had some chipped lens edges + few scratches on lenses in and 1 optics
***TeleVue Ethos line, cleanest TeleVue line, had all singlets new, but two had scratches on lenses in and out, with very small number of dust particles inside
​***Explore Scientific all eyepeices, I had them all, new, they had exceptionaly clean optics inside and outside, and some had scratches on lenses in and out, while 9mm 120deg (I had 3 of them), had oil particles on inner lenses sourfaces, and ony 1 was free of oil particles, but all had few scratches on lenses
***cheaper China made brands, all had dust particles, scratches on lenses here and there, but no foggy lenses, some had chipped lens edges
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
​…..
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Conclusion:
 
being a perfectionist, al simply ADORING astro optics, for me its mission impossible to find anything perfect, and I learned that and reconciled with that, but I still staring into each new astro optic I get. Knowing that most of these absolutely DO NOT disturbing any optical performance and quality, Im still nowdays discussing same things with many world famous optics sellers (persons), distributers, optics makers companies via many many emails, Whatsapp, Viber and Messanger messages and phots + live phone calls classically or via Skype.
 
Some told me that I should NOT looking AT optics, and that I should looking THROUGH optics and see if optical performance is affected, and they are very probably right!
 
I do not want share with you MANY MANY ugly images I did over many years, because some could get heart attack LOL!
 
Kind regards,
Denis

Denis-
This is breathtaking! The breadth & depth of what you’ve seen in the way of deleterious issues boggles the mind! 
 
Yet your conclusions stack well with what my eyes have told me in the years I’ve been looking thru this glass- and most particularly thru the two new TPL’s I’ve acquired (9 & 12.5mm). From the get-go they were simply stunning for contrast & clarity of image, depth of background blackness, & grasp of faint stellar points therein. Much the same with the new Masuyama EPs I’d obtained! This was all before anyone floated this DUST issue. Even tho I’ve subsequently inspected these EPs utilizing an LED light from under, viewing thru at varying angles, and even rotating while viewing- no contaminants were observed, certainly nothing I’d consider significant. And yet…. 
 
Your conclusions have been my assumptions going forward, even without my going to the lengths you’ve described. But your efforts in so doing, including documenting contaminant & condition types, extents & degrees, AND naming names, should be a sobering perspective for us all! Akin to the time-honored advice of avoiding the shining of a bright light into one’s Dob optics, lest one suffer a heart attack at the ugly sight! Yeah- it’s true!
 
Patient: ”Hey Doc- it hurts when I do this”
Doc: “Well then, don’t do THAT!”


Edited by Mike B, 15 June 2024 - 05:15 PM.

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#5 Mike B

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 05:05 PM

Semiconductor manufacturers are massive multi-billion dollar corporations with unlimited budgets, not mostly smaller niche companies that assemble eyepieces for several thousand amateur astronomers. 

As has been clearly documented in earlier TPL posts, putting together a basic “clean-room” should be well within the $$ reach of almost any optics assembler! 
 

It certainly seems it’s high time! Prob’ly same applies to optical coating labs…..

 

Like I’ve said, “Argon Purged” had its day… maybe is time to market a new sub-labeling: “DUST PURGED”?lol.gif 


Edited by Mike B, 15 June 2024 - 05:07 PM.

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#6 CeleNoptic

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 05:10 PM

Some told me that I should NOT looking AT optics, and that I should looking THROUGH optics and see if optical performance is affected, and they are very probably right!

 

I do not want share with you MANY MANY ugly images I did over many years, because some could get heart attack LOL!

 

 

waytogo.gif waytogo.gif waytogo.gif


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#7 scout

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 05:14 PM

As has been clearly documented in earlier TPL posts, putting together a basic “clean-room” should be well within the $$ reach of almost any optics assembler! 

I agree every optics assembler should have basic clean room standards. Definitely.

 

My response was in reply to a comment that "it's not that hard or expensive to implement because giant multi-billion dollar semi-conductor corporations can afford it."


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#8 Bob4BVM

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 05:26 PM

Semiconductor manufacturers are massive multi-billion dollar corporations with unlimited budgets, not mostly smaller niche companies that assemble eyepieces for several thousand amateur astronomers. 

That is correct (mostly), but not all are that big, ie some of the smaller specialized-chip mfgrs that are definitely not billion dollar corp's.

I can tell you based on my experience back in the day, that clean rooms are indeed not THAT hard /expensive to implement on a small scale as would be needed by EP mfgrs:

  Sealed room, pressurized via good air filtration, and properly dressed personnel are exceedingly well understood topics to anyone in that business.  That much is, again, not necessarily a high-cost scenario. And once it's done, it's done. A filtered fan-wall is a very low-cost-to-operate solution.

 

That is all that's required, it's not black magic, and the concepts are now used by a vast array of other mfg'g processes which yield a better product if done in a clean environment.  So being a 'little guy' is not an excuse.

 

I am not picking on the EP mfgrs, but i am surprised they have not made use of what is now half-century old technology.  I find it hard to believe they are not aware .

CS

Bob


Edited by Bob4BVM, 15 June 2024 - 05:33 PM.

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#9 CrazyPanda

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 05:36 PM

I'm curious how you're seeing scratches. Are you dissassembling these eyepieces and using magnification to inspect them? I've never seen scratches on any eyepiece except for the issue I documented with my 12.5 NAV-HW. You can see micro scratches in the 1080p video at this point:

 

https://www.youtube....qes8f5yc&t=130s

 

It's as if that lens surface never received final polishing.

 

That got fixed under warranty and you can no longer see such fine scratches.


Edited by CrazyPanda, 15 June 2024 - 05:37 PM.

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#10 denis0007dl

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 06:34 PM

Tonight again I was looking AT my LZOS 180mm objective, and I just discovered another issue there, and was wondering what are all those artifacts on lenses showed as reflected ligh objects?! 🧐

 

I could see none of them when looking through telescope, and only seeing them as reflections showed here...

 

Just and joke 😁

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  • IMG_5548.jpeg

Edited by denis0007dl, 15 June 2024 - 11:52 PM.


#11 PKDfan

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 10:40 PM



You have my immense respect Denis !!

You've got guts to poke the hornets nest and i am surprised to mosts acceptence although unhappily & slightly passively aggressive to this dirty little secret.


I'm very curious if you've tried examining the Nagler Type 2s ?

The two XWs i have 30 and 16.5 appear as clean as the 20T2 & 12T2 and my 3 Morpheus also.

I don't believe i shall do a deep dive into them unless grasping for the last rays of starlight.





ClearEST glass Skies
Lance
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#12 mountain monk

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 11:34 PM

This reminds me of my favorite Islamic saying: Perfection is for Allah, not us.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack


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#13 denis0007dl

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 11:56 PM

You have my immense respect Denis !!

You've got guts to poke the hornets nest and i am surprised to mosts acceptence although unhappily & slightly passively aggressive to this dirty little secret.


I'm very curious if you've tried examining the Nagler Type 2s ?

The two XWs i have 30 and 16.5 appear as clean as the 20T2 & 12T2 and my 3 Morpheus also.

I don't believe i shall do a deep dive into them unless grasping for the last rays of starlight.





ClearEST glass Skies
Lance

Hello Lance,

 

never had Nagler T2.

 

I have and had Morpheus  many in pairs, and except some dust, I saw many scratches on lenses, small chipped lens edges here and there, few foggy lenses, and coatings delaminations.

 

I didnt mention many eyepieces I had also, just named those who comes to my mind in time of writing.

 

Denis


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#14 Bob4BVM

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Posted 15 June 2024 - 11:58 PM

This reminds me of my favorite Islamic saying: Perfection is for Allah, not us.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack

Maybe, but for the price of an Ethos, I'd prefer a higher standard, as instructed by a wiser Teacher:

"... be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."

 

Surely at some price point we are justified in expecting perfection, at least when it comes to spotless internals.

Just as He was, considering the price paid.

CS
Bob


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#15 denis0007dl

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 12:29 AM

Masuyama MOP new eyepieces, all focals in 1.25" barell I had, all had much more dust + foggy lenses + chipped glass edges than Tak TPL line have.

Also, all MOP boxes and eyepieces had strong smell on fungus, while I dodnt notice any fungus on boxes, nor eyepieces.

#16 denis0007dl

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 12:34 AM

Interesting sections are diagonal mirrors, having all ever made except Vernonscope ones.

Absolutely ALL had many many scratches, many had chipped miror edges, and many had uncoated areas, showing small uncoated circles.

Diagonal prisms?

I had probably all of them ever made, and almost all have more or less bigger or smaller scratches, many had chipped prism edges, some had air bubbles inside glass, many had coating delaminations of all kind, including uncoated areas, many who have blackened prism edges, not all sourfaces are blackened tottaly - probably on some blac paint peal off.


Edited by denis0007dl, 16 June 2024 - 02:11 AM.


#17 mountain monk

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 12:46 AM

Bob4BMV,

 

I don’t have a dog in that fight, so…no comment. And Sheen was borrowing from Yeats.

 

The usefulness of a cup is found in it’s emptiness.

 

Thank you for your many labors, Denis. We all remain in debt to you.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack


Edited by mountain monk, 16 June 2024 - 12:48 AM.

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#18 leonard

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 01:42 AM

    Hello ,

 

      Denis , thank you for shining light on this subject for us . waytogo.gif 
 

           Many of us have known for a long time that optical glass will have micro bubbles and dust in the glass itself ,

it cannot be helped .

            The part that gets me is the scratchs and fogging and unforgivable amounts of dust . This shows that most if not all eyepieces do not have a high polish standard , no one ( at least that’s talking) knows what those scratch/dig numbers are but you can be sure it’s not 20/10 .

 

                The fogging is just plain strange .

            


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#19 denis0007dl

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 03:34 AM

Refeering to my first post about new Swarovski 15x56 binocular, here it is link and review of it

 

https://www.cloudyni...ake/?p=10216957



#20 PKDfan

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 05:20 AM

Hello Lance,

never had Nagler T2.

<snip>

Denis


KaBAM KerUNCH bOOm Denis scores a brilliant knockout punch blindsiding and laying out prostate his outclassed opponent -- proverbial stars whirling around his head & his eyes already bruising....


For the love of good light Denis i just woke up from being knocked unconsciousness from that, never ?

Have you NEVER looked through two of the finest TV products ever made ? ? ! !

The 20mm is in a class all by itself so for ANY lover of optics please please pleease find that one or ideally both, the almost equal 12mm, before you find eternal rest and miss the finest of visual visceral experiences- at least it was/is for me stupendous correction.


They are my most perfect eyepieces.


Best
Lance

#21 Astrojensen

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 05:56 AM

On a completely different note: Happy Birthday, Denis!

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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#22 davidgmd

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 11:42 AM

I wondered what that little cake meant next to your name. Happy birthday Denis! 

  

And thanks for doing this. I'm not surprised and I don't expect perfection. However, I still would like to see a comparison of clean vs. dusty samples of the same eyepieces. Without that, there's really no way to know how much it affects our view.


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#23 j.gardavsky

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 11:52 AM

Happy Birthday Denis!

 

You deserve a big party with many friends,

JG


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#24 mountain monk

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 01:01 PM

Well, gang, I hate to quote Lenin, but “What is to be done?” Any ideas?

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack



#25 denis0007dl

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Posted 16 June 2024 - 03:52 PM

Thank you all my dear Cloudynights members for nice wishes, love you all heart.png heart.png 
 

Denis


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