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Flocking Paper Vs Ultra Flat Black Question

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#1 telesonic

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Posted 24 June 2024 - 08:49 PM

So, next up on my Comet Catcher project list is that little bit. I actually need to do the interior of 2 of these scopes, and I'd like some input from you folks.

 

For the context, I've repainted the exteriors of both of the tubes, and with my Jedi Level - mastery of taping and masking paper, I managed to not get any paint in the inside of them. But these are fairly old scopes, and while the inside paint is flat (ish) it's nowhere near the Krylon Ultra-Flat that I typically use.... it's like a faded greyish black. More Battleship Grey.... which is meh, no bueno.

 

I've tried my hand at using self-adhesive flocking from Scopestuff on the first tube, some time ago - and that attempt was a failure. I was trying to do the entire inside of the tube, and two large pieces overlapped, then I got the hobby knife out, and it went downhill from there.... so I yanked it out and garbaged that idea. I have a few small spare squares, that I could use opposite of the focuser, and enough for a few inches down into the tube (behind the corrector plate - and forward the primary) It's a Schmidt Newtonian, for those who don't know of these beasts.

 

Brainstorming on this the past few days, I think my plan ahead amounts to:

Well, first off I'm gonna need to re-paint (or attempt to) the interior. A rattle can won't work for that, angle and all - but I think it may be doable with a small roller (used for house trim, which I've got handy) and a quart of something from our paint rep.... which I can get basically free.

 

If that fails, plan B is to go with flocking paper....  or C which is a combination of both. (paint tube, paper behind secondary, and nears ends of the tube.?

 

I'd appreciate some thoughts on what you folks would do on this.

 

(mods-)

Posted here in classics, but if it's more suited to ATM feel free to move it.

 

Cheers,

Temp



#2 deSitter

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Posted 24 June 2024 - 09:08 PM

So, next up on my Comet Catcher project list is that little bit. I actually need to do the interior of 2 of these scopes, and I'd like some input from you folks.

 

For the context, I've repainted the exteriors of both of the tubes, and with my Jedi Level - mastery of taping and masking paper, I managed to not get any paint in the inside of them. But these are fairly old scopes, and while the inside paint is flat (ish) it's nowhere near the Krylon Ultra-Flat that I typically use.... it's like a faded greyish black. More Battleship Grey.... which is meh, no bueno.

 

I've tried my hand at using self-adhesive flocking from Scopestuff on the first tube, some time ago - and that attempt was a failure. I was trying to do the entire inside of the tube, and two large pieces overlapped, then I got the hobby knife out, and it went downhill from there.... so I yanked it out and garbaged that idea. I have a few small spare squares, that I could use opposite of the focuser, and enough for a few inches down into the tube (behind the corrector plate - and forward the primary) It's a Schmidt Newtonian, for those who don't know of these beasts.

 

Brainstorming on this the past few days, I think my plan ahead amounts to:

Well, first off I'm gonna need to re-paint (or attempt to) the interior. A rattle can won't work for that, angle and all - but I think it may be doable with a small roller (used for house trim, which I've got handy) and a quart of something from our paint rep.... which I can get basically free.

 

If that fails, plan B is to go with flocking paper....  or C which is a combination of both. (paint tube, paper behind secondary, and nears ends of the tube.?

 

I'd appreciate some thoughts on what you folks would do on this.

 

(mods-)

Posted here in classics, but if it's more suited to ATM feel free to move it.

 

Cheers,

Temp

I made a cylinder of plastic-backed flock board sold by FPI-Protostar. It provides a layer of insulation like cork, but it's also the blackest black you can get. Rolling one up to 7" diameter might be complicated. My tube was 1 ft so I could "suture" the cylinder with blue tape. It slid right in and nestled around the mirror. The contrast improvement is unbelievable. You can look straight at the Moon.

 

-drl


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#3 Sky Muse

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Posted 24 June 2024 - 09:30 PM

I used chalkboard-black on the interior my Sears(Towa) 50mm f/12 achromat...

 

achromat11.jpg

 

I use the Rust-Oleum chalkboard-black, yet flocking wherever I can, or is rather, practical.


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#4 deSitter

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Posted 24 June 2024 - 09:44 PM

I used chalkboard-black on the interior my Sears(Towa) 50mm f/12 achromat...

 

attachicon.gif achromat11.jpg

 

I use the Rust-Oleum chalkboard-black, yet flocking wherever I can, or is rather, practical.

This scope is small enough to use a cylinder of flock paper, leaving the backing in place. I do this with my finders. No hassle and completely reversible. You have to be accurate when measuring and cutting the sheet which will become a cylinder, so that the tube will slide right on the tube. You have to coax it for the last 1/4th.

 

-drl


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#5 Sky Muse

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Posted 24 June 2024 - 10:30 PM

This scope is small enough to use a cylinder of flock paper, leaving the backing in place. I do this with my finders. No hassle and completely reversible. You have to be accurate when measuring and cutting the sheet which will become a cylinder, so that the tube will slide right on the tube. You have to coax it for the last 1/4th.

 

-drl

I flocked this draw-tube, but I had peeled the paper backing off...

 

flocking10.jpg

 

But that's the only instance.  All of my other draw-tubes are given a spritz of chalkboard-black.

 

Protostar sold flexi-flocking, or still sells it.


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#6 telesonic

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Posted 24 June 2024 - 10:39 PM

This scope is small enough to use a cylinder of flock paper, leaving the backing in place. I do this with my finders. No hassle and completely reversible. You have to be accurate when measuring and cutting the sheet which will become a cylinder, so that the tube will slide right on the tube. You have to coax it for the last 1/4th.

 

-drl

Ooh, hrmm.... interesting method!

So just basically roll up a bit for the tube, and it's good to go? If that is the case, it's simple enough, and that is an excellent idea!

 

@ Sky Muse

 

That came out very nice, and I really like that chalkboard paint..... never used it on a scope inside before but I have thought of it many times.

I have a quart of the chalkboard paint on hand, and an aerosol can also.... so I've got to ask how you did the 50mm Towa. Rolled, sprayed....  brushed, any info on your application method would help me get an idea going.

 

Cheers,

Temp

 


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#7 deSitter

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Posted 24 June 2024 - 11:08 PM

Ooh, hrmm.... interesting method!

So just basically roll up a bit for the tube, and it's good to go? If that is the case, it's simple enough, and that is an excellent idea!

 

@ Sky Muse

 

That came out very nice, and I really like that chalkboard paint..... never used it on a scope inside before but I have thought of it many times.

I have a quart of the chalkboard paint on hand, and an aerosol can also.... so I've got to ask how you did the 50mm Towa. Rolled, sprayed....  brushed, any info on your application method would help me get an idea going.

 

Cheers,

Temp

For really small tubes, you can even avoid the tape "suture" and just have the edges of the rolled up rectangle bang up against each other. This requires really accurate measurement and laying out the sheet with exact right angles and equal opposite sides. But that flock paper is easy to cut with good scissors.

 

-drl


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#8 Sky Muse

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Posted 24 June 2024 - 11:14 PM

@ Sky Muse

 

That came out very nice, and I really like that chalkboard paint..... never used it on a scope inside before but I have thought of it many times.

I have a quart of the chalkboard paint on hand, and an aerosol can also.... so I've got to ask how you did the 50mm Towa. Rolled, sprayed....  brushed, any info on your application method would help me get an idea going.

 

Cheers,

Temp

Thank you.  I mask the outside of the OT, and spray.  Sometimes I direct the spray with a paper tube.  


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#9 Geo31

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Posted 25 June 2024 - 10:32 PM

Forget the flocking paper.  Get loose flocking and a tube applicator (it manually blows out the flocking).  Use Rustoleum flat black paint applied with a small foam roller (you’ll have to bend the roller arm out straight).  The Rustoleum (do NOT use spray cans) is oil based and will dry slowly enough for you to apply plenty of flocking from both ends.  You want to be generous in your application of the raw fibers.  They will adhere to the paint, and those that don’t will simply fall away.

 

I did this for my Celesterion RVC-6N (see the link ing my sig).  The insides of that tube is where photons go to die.  See posts 109 and 118 specifically. 


Edited by Geo31, 25 June 2024 - 10:36 PM.

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#10 Joe Cepleur

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Posted 25 June 2024 - 10:54 PM

I have used rolls of flocking slipped into small tubes, without using any adhesive. Neat to hear that there are stiffer flocking boards that will work in larger tubes. My understanding is that Televue uses flocking rather than baffles. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
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#11 telesonic

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Posted 25 June 2024 - 11:25 PM

Forget the flocking paper.  Get loose flocking and a tube applicator (it manually blows out the flocking).  Use Rustoleum flat black paint applied with a small foam roller (you’ll have to bend the roller arm out straight).  The Rustoleum (do NOT use spray cans) is oil based and will dry slowly enough for you to apply plenty of flocking from both ends.  You want to be generous in your application of the raw fibers.  They will adhere to the paint, and those that don’t will simply fall away.

 

I did this for my Celesterion RVC-6N (see the link ing my sig).  The insides of that tube is where photons go to die.  See posts 109 and 118 specifically. 

 

Yeah!

Your reply and information kind of confirms what I was thinking about how to do it without paper, and what to use. I was trying to figure that out, and those are great directions!

 

I've got plenty of paint stuff handy, so it's no big deal to sacrifice a roller arm for this project (got plently) and I have roller covers that will work. Might be a day or two before I get back to this project, but I'll keep you all updated on how it goes.

 

Thanks again folks,

Temp


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#12 greedyshark

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 01:57 PM

Another option for your consideration that I have used with superb results…

 

Crushed walnuts. Apply adhesive to the interior of your tube…roll in the crushed walnuts…coat with your favorite ultra flat black.

 

You will not find a darker interior anywhere.

 

Cs,

Charles


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#13 clamchip

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 03:30 PM

When Aroura Astro Products was just up the street they would have parking lot parties.

TeleVue would show up with their wonderful telescopes. I asked about the tube interior treatment because

I noticed no baffles and what looks like a coarse light trapping material. He said:

"Sandpaper, about 30 grit, we paint it black roll it up and slide it in."

It works great. I've also tried window screen, the fiberglass stuff is springy and already black. For newt's

a good light trap is 1/4" hardware cloth painted black, this is Edmund Scientific's idea.

I really like flock paper, rolled into cylinders and slid down the tube, with one knife-edge baffle center of

the tube. If there's room for it a baffle at the inlet of the focuser/draw tube.

 

Robert


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#14 starman876

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 05:23 PM

I bought some very expensive black flat paint that I redid the inside of my Q7 with. Talk about black.   Very expensive.  But it is a questar and deserves the best.  


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#15 deSitter

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 06:20 PM

I bought some very expensive black flat paint that I redid the inside of my Q7 with. Talk about black.   Very expensive.  But it is a questar and deserves the best.  

I had a scope with Spinal Tap No. 11 "Smell the Glove" None More Flat Black paint and flocked it (shove in cylinder method) and the difference on the Moon was astounding. I bought a massive roll of that flock paper because it goes into everything important now. I will likely put some in my 7" Mak eventually.

 

The beautiful thing about the shove-in method is that is takes 5 minutes to completely reverse the work.

 

-drl


Edited by deSitter, 26 June 2024 - 06:22 PM.

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#16 telesonic

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 07:50 PM

I had a scope with Spinal Tap No. 11 "Smell the Glove" None More Flat Black paint and flocked it (shove in cylinder method) and the difference on the Moon was astounding. I bought a massive roll of that flock paper because it goes into everything important now. I will likely put some in my 7" Mak eventually.

 

The beautiful thing about the shove-in method is that is takes 5 minutes to completely reverse the work.

 

-drl

 

I like the idea of the shove-in method, and I might try that out first. My first attempt was pretty ham-fisted with the ScopeStuff flocking, so it was simply user error on my part.... not a bad product or anything. I was trying stick it to the tube, in two pieces and it just got all wonky (doing the peel and stick) but it was a lesson learned about "what not to do" - and this time I'll know better.

 

Being that I have 2 of these scopes, I might try a certain method on one, and a second on the other, just for comparison purposes. (or so I've been thinking - it might be a cool test)

 

Excellent advice and tips, I'll give it some thought - and let you folks know when I get them done.

 

Cheers,

Temp


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#17 telesonic

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 08:57 PM

I had some spare time today, and already had a rattle can of the Rustoleum Chalk Board paint in my pile. Went ahead and gave that a go on the modified white tube (since it needed paint inside anyway) as a test.

 

This stuff actually worked really well! I wasn't sure how the bomb can would spray into the tube, but it turned out excellent - not a problem at all. I set up the tube standing on end (vertically), and shot it like that, flipped it to the other end, and repeat. I got four good solid coats on it, which is more than enough.

 

So, one scope OTA is done... and currently drying. I used about 1/3rd of the can, so I've got plenty leftover to do the Blue Tube Comet Catcher - which also needs a re-paint on the interior too. It was simple enough, so I think I will be using the chalkboard paint on that OTA as well, then I can flock one and do a comparison test later.

 

To be honest, my initial thoughts - prior to seeing the finished result from a bomb can of this stuff, I was a bit skeptical about how "black" and also how "flat" it would be. I was pretty surprised (in a good way) that it is indeed, a very decent flat black. My favorite for this sort of "ultra flat" has always been the often used Krylon Camo black, but really... this works just as good, and seems to be about the same in sheen, so that is nice to know. In fact, I might actually prefer this stuff, since I can't always find the Krylon Ultra Flat Camo Black, but this stuff always is on the shelves. It might cost a bit more, being a specialty paint...  (I haven't checked cost, this was a can I had from a few years back) but that doesn't matter much to me.

 

The one thing I did randomly discover today was, at least on my can - was this:

You can use a different cap, or nozzle. I found this out by accident... I'd put a nozzle from my can of brake parts cleaner on there (was trying to clean out a half dozen old plugged up Rustoleum caps with the brake cleaner. It was a wider and bigger blast of paint, but I'll try the stock cap on the other tube and see if there is a noticable difference in the spray pattern.

 

 

I might get around to painting the interior of the second one this weekend, perhaps tomorrow - then let em' dry for a few days.... then get some pictures of them up.

 

But, this chalkboard paint will work really well as a base layer, I believe.

No pics for now.... I'm gonna try to finish both of these projects, and call it a wrap - so there is still work to be done.

More to come  - at a later date.

 

 

Cheers, and have a great weekend all!

Temp


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#18 deSitter

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 09:32 PM

This is good information!

 

Last time I painted the interior of a tube was a 4 1/4" f/10 Newtonian. I stood the tube on its end and just fired the can straight down its maw, so that a sort of paint fog formed in the tube. Then flip it and repeat. This worked really well - the resulting paint had a sort of furriness like very fine hoarfrost. That enhanced the flatness and the blackness. The smaller the tube the harder to do. I'm sure I used Rusto UFB.

 

-drl


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#19 telesonic

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Posted 28 June 2024 - 09:51 PM

This is good information!

 

Last time I painted the interior of a tube was a 4 1/4" f/10 Newtonian. I stood the tube on its end and just fired the can straight down its maw, so that a sort of paint fog formed in the tube. Then flip it and repeat. This worked really well - the resulting paint had a sort of furriness like very fine hoarfrost. That enhanced the flatness and the blackness. The smaller the tube the harder to do. I'm sure I used Rusto UFB.

 

-drl

 

Thanks!

And it was my reasoning why I posted such a lengthy comment on it. First being - I wasn't sure if this paint would work, but Sky Muse seemed to have good results... and I already had a can handy, so why not.. I figured.

 

And also, for other folks that are unsure of how to do this, and might want to attempt doing that, it wasn't hard to do at all. As you noted, I also got some "fogging effect" further down the tube, as a painter - I know that it is overspray, but in the this use... it might be beneficial. Once it's dry tomorrow,  or sunday.... I'll do a "tape test" with a very low-tack product, if it's dust, the tape will pull it off just fine. If not, I'll leave it as-is.

 

Edited to add this. Bomb can chalkboard paint, not the best picture (old phone and terrible lighting) but it should get the point across.

 

CC flat

 

 

Temp

 

 


Edited by telesonic, 28 June 2024 - 10:48 PM.

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#20 Terra Nova

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Posted 29 June 2024 - 09:06 AM

If there is any way you can get your hands on any Protostar Flockboard, it’s the absolute best! I used it to flock my trusty old and dearly departed ATM 6” F4.5 Newtonian. Just cut it and place it. It snaps into position and holds fast with NO adhesive. And it’s the blackest of black.

 

Sadly, my new lifestyle had no room for this big boy:

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#21 ccwemyss

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Posted 29 June 2024 - 12:06 PM

I've had good luck hand-painting with Stuart Semple Black 2.0.

 

https://www.cultureh...st-art-material

 

This is with ambient room light (I couldn't see the baffles to tell if there were thin spots):

 

AP 6 - 1 (2).jpeg

 

And this is with a 60W flood light pointing down the tube, about 8" from the front (I needed this much light to be see where the baffles required touching up):

 

AP 6 - 1 (3).jpeg

 

Significantly darker than chalk board or flat black paints. I tried their Black 3.0, but although noticeably darker, it was unstable below freezing (developed a white crust). I experimented both with and without aluminum primer (adheres better to the primer) and with slow and fast drying to see how each behaved with the freezer test. The 2.0 was stable for all the tests, and the 3.0 was unstable regardless of preparation. 

 

I have not tried their more recent Black 4.0.

 

https://www.cultureh...ducts/black-4-0

 

It's expensive, but a little goes a long way. 

 

Chip W. 


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#22 telesonic

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Posted 29 June 2024 - 10:39 PM

If there is any way you can get your hands on any Protostar Flockboard, it’s the absolute best! I used it to flock my trusty old and dearly departed ATM 6” F4.5 Newtonian. Just cut it and place it. It snaps into position and holds fast with NO adhesive. And it’s the blackest of black.

 

Sadly, my new lifestyle had no room for this big boy:

 

I've seen many positive reviews of that flocking, and I'll try and figure out where to find some of it pretty soon. I'm not in a rush on it, since I just got the chalkboard paint done. The flocking will be the icing on the cake per se.

 

Cheers,

Temp

T


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#23 Weisswurst Josef

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Posted 30 June 2024 - 09:26 AM

I've had good luck hand-painting with Stuart Semple Black 2.0.

 

...

Have you thinned it and if how much?

Did you do a single layer?



#24 Paul Sweeney

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Posted 30 June 2024 - 11:19 AM

Here in Germany we have a dob manufacturer who told me his method: paint the inside of the tube with adhesive, throw in sawdust, and let it dry. Then paint it black. The inside of the tube looks very rough when finished.

#25 Weisswurst Josef

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Posted 30 June 2024 - 04:21 PM

Doing that sawdust with a new built dob is the one thing.

The same with a classic scope could ruin it`s worth.

 

Saw a Takahashi FC-65 from the 80s some years ago.

Was interested. Then I realized that there was flocking

paper glued into the dew shield. No more interest I had.

 

I think, with classics it is a good way to do it removable.

Or in a manner that it could be original.


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