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Veil Nebula Mosaic Project?

Astrophotography DSO Imaging
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#1 JimCase

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Posted 25 June 2024 - 02:11 PM

The Veil Nebula in Cygnus is now rising above the trees in my backyard before 10 pm, and I succesfully imaged the Western Veil (NGC6960) with 7.5 hours of OSC data recently with my AT115EDT and my ASI2600MC (see below - a higher resolution version is posted in my gallery). I have used my 51mm Redcat for a wider field image of the entire Veil in the past, and am considering using the AT115EDT with a Starizona ED-L reducer ( 530mm fl ) to capture a 4 pane mosaic of the Veil to get a higher resolution and higher quality image that will stand up to enlargement.  I am hoping a mosaic with the faster imaging with the larger refractor will produce a better result. I tried this with M31 last fall and it yielded a good result. Does this make sense? Any advice if I go forward? Thanks.

 

 

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#2 joshman

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Posted 25 June 2024 - 06:36 PM

Sounds like an amazing plan, and one you won't regret. Play around with various framing using telescopius, or NINA's framing tool to find something you like.

 

Your proposed setup is identical to what i used to complete a 3 panel mosaic of this target with the TAK (530mm) and my ASI2600mm. I had a thread for it over in the beginner section here: https://www.cloudyni...3-panel-mosaic/

 

You can access my astrobin from my signature or through the image link in that post.


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#3 whwang

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Posted 25 June 2024 - 08:08 PM

Mosaic is the way to go if you want details and wide FoV at the same time.  The Veil is a good target to mosaic and the challenge in processing will be only moderate.

 

Judging from the image you showed, perhaps a 4-frame mosaic won't be enough to cover the whole Veil (eastern + western), or it will fit very tightly.

 

This is my 4-frame mosaic of the Veil: https://astrob.in/wts367/B/


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#4 JimCase

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Posted 25 June 2024 - 09:54 PM

Sounds like an amazing plan, and one you won't regret. Play around with various framing using telescopius, or NINA's framing tool to find something you like.

 

Your proposed setup is identical to what i used to complete a 3 panel mosaic of this target with the TAK (530mm) and my ASI2600mm. I had a thread for it over in the beginner section here: https://www.cloudyni...3-panel-mosaic/

 

You can access my astrobin from my signature or through the image link in that post.

Nice work! Using Telescopius I think a four panel will let me have enough space to get the faint parts of the nebula with at least a 15 percent overlap. I have about 9 hours of exposures from two earlier projects (below) that I may also integrate with the new project if it works well. 

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#5 JimCase

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Posted 25 June 2024 - 10:09 PM

Mosaic is the way to go if you want details and wide FoV at the same time.  The Veil is a good target to mosaic and the challenge in processing will be only moderate.

 

Judging from the image you showed, perhaps a 4-frame mosaic won't be enough to cover the whole Veil (eastern + western), or it will fit very tightly.

 

This is my 4-frame mosaic of the Veil: https://astrob.in/wts367/B/

The first image used the AT115 at its native fl (805mm), and it looks like I would need 6 panels if I used it native fl. With a reducer it will be a good fit with 4 panels @ 530mm.

 

APP has done a good job of combining images from several setups together, so I will try to combine the new frames with the other veil images if it all works as planned.

 

I like your effort. I see you favor a bit more saturation than what I have chosen. Your modified Pentax does an excellent job! I have several Pentax 67 medium format manual lenses and an adapter for my Pentax DSLR that I may try using at some point for a wide field setup.



#6 joshman

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Posted 25 June 2024 - 10:12 PM

Nice work! Using Telescopius I think a four panel will let me have enough space to get the faint parts of the nebula with at least a 15 percent overlap. I have about 9 hours of exposures from two earlier projects (below) that I may also integrate with the new project if it works well. 

from memory, i usually go with about a 20% overlap for my mosaics. a 4 panel in a 2x2 arrangement with 15% overlap should be able to fit the entirety of the Cygnus loop complex, but it might feel a bit cramped against the outer edges.



#7 JimCase

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 11:46 AM

I experimented with a 4 panel mosaic last night (only 30 minutes for each panel) to check on framing, and it looks like it will work using the AT115 EDT with the Starizona reducer (fl 530 mm) with a 15% overlap. Here is a low resolution version of the experiment. It looks like it will work when I am able to capture a lot more data. Ideally it would be about 8 hours per panel, and at least 5 hours per panel given my experience with this equipment. Your advice is appreciated, and I would welcome further insights.

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#8 smiller

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 08:17 PM

It's a great target for a mosaic as I found the nebulosity is pretty easy to balance between he panels.   I was shooting other targets last spring but they would drop below my trees and I had a couple of extra hours each night as the Veil rose in the east.

 

So each night I would just shoot a different panel or two.  Combined with two longer separate captures of the east and west nebula I ended up with 21 panels totaling about 15 hours (so not much on each panel) and APP was a good choice for combining them.

 

I was at 1125mm focal length (305mm at F3.65), so pretty long, but I did have a full frame camera which helped a tad with respect to FOV.   Here is 21 panels and 15 hours total with a L-Ultimate filter form B6/7, just to calibrate you:

 

get.jpg?insecure


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#9 JimCase

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Posted 26 June 2024 - 08:45 PM

Nice project! I will also incorporate several other veil images in the mosaic- APP does a nice job of integrating images with different FOV and Fl in my experience.
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#10 R Botero

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Posted 27 June 2024 - 06:24 AM

Keep adding data. You are doing well!  I wish I had added more to my 3x3 mosaic in the middle of covid:

 

https://www.astrobin.../full/7w1p07/N/

 

 

Roberto


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#11 badgie

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Posted 27 June 2024 - 11:55 PM

Wonderful project for mosaics, as others have said.  It is very very rewarding to more and more time on target, you can pull out more and more detail. This was ~60 hours on the target and I will probably go back and add more time at some point!

 

get.jpg?insecure


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#12 Zambiadarkskies

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Posted 02 July 2024 - 06:33 AM

I don't really have advice for you other than keep going! Last year I did a 9 panel mosaic with AT80ED and 533MC.  For some unfathomable reason I shot the 9 panels "manually" in that I didn't use the mosaic function in the ASIair.  I don't really understand why!  55Hrs.  

 

get.jpg?insecure


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#13 IonClad

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Posted 02 July 2024 - 12:40 PM

There's really not a wrong way to frame the Veil, and a few-hour test of your panels like you've done is a great way to try your framing. Only additional suggestion is that if there are any particular filaments you want in-frame, perhaps check out other examples to make sure they fit. Below is an example of just starless Ha so you can see some of the surroundings.

 

veil-h-small.jpg


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#14 auroraTDunn

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Posted 02 July 2024 - 01:49 PM

There's really not a wrong way to frame the Veil, and a few-hour test of your panels like you've done is a great way to try your framing. Only additional suggestion is that if there are any particular filaments you want in-frame, perhaps check out other examples to make sure they fit. Below is an example of just starless Ha so you can see some of the surroundings.

 

attachicon.gif veil-h-small.jpg

How long was your total Ha exposure?

Finally going to get the first clear nights in 2 months and am contemplating a deep (long) SHO image of the Veil. I was doubting the value of going long (as in >24 hours - 8 per channel) on it. Now I see that beautiful image and I'm VERY energized!

 

 

[EDIT] Now that I explore this image plus the previous ones in light of that stand alone Ha. I see some awesome potential!


Edited by auroraTDunn, 02 July 2024 - 01:50 PM.


#15 IonClad

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Posted 02 July 2024 - 02:11 PM

How long was your total Ha exposure?

Finally going to get the first clear nights in 2 months and am contemplating a deep (long) SHO image of the Veil. I was doubting the value of going long (as in >24 hours - 8 per channel) on it. Now I see that beautiful image and I'm VERY energized!

 

 

[EDIT] Now that I explore this image plus the previous ones in light of that stand alone Ha. I see some awesome potential!

That's a single panel 3nm Ha and 23 hours from Bortle 8 at f/5 (plus a lot of noise reduction). I have OIII and SII even longer exposures, but from Bortle 8 they're just not great.



#16 auroraTDunn

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Posted 02 July 2024 - 05:30 PM

That's a single panel 3nm Ha and 23 hours from Bortle 8 at f/5 (plus a lot of noise reduction). I have OIII and SII even longer exposures, but from Bortle 8 they're just not great.

Grrrr, on the sky issue, I can relate my once Bortle 2 skies are now Bortle 6 and at the rate growth is happening soon to be 7bawling.gif

But thanks for the info, that helps me plan, IF I actually ever do get clear skies.

 

Oh and PEOPLE STOP SHARING YOUR SMOKE!!! It's supposed to be clear but the sky is currently smoke tainted and the bulk of it should be well north of me.



#17 Karlp295

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Posted 03 July 2024 - 03:41 AM

So one question here, what software and process do you use to balance the panels?

 

I always find it a bit of a challenge to easily balance them.

 

Suggestions?



#18 JimCase

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Posted 03 July 2024 - 09:39 AM

I have been pleased with the mosaic integration tools in APP, including the multi-band blending and the local normalization correction tools in the integration module. Combined with the light pollution tool APP has worked well in most cases.

#19 auroraTDunn

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Posted 03 July 2024 - 10:00 AM

Not that I need it for the Veil with my RC71 (although first clear night since the beginning of May and it looks like my framing is cutting WAY to close to the Eastern Veil, go figure, I noticed it on my 11th 300sec frame and did not bother correcting it so going to have a tricky processing mixing last nights and what I'll correct to, hoping to get enough time to just trash them but 6 hours right now is insanely valuable!)

 

But sorry I digress. I use AA+ for setting up and running mosaics and process with PI, no problems there. I balance each one, per channel as if they were just other channels. Although one needs to be conscious of gradients and/or gradient correction differences especially if dealing with no moon vs way to much moon masters. TO deal with nasty issues like this I just use one of Adams tricks which basically says there's nothing wrong from multiple gradient corrections AS LONG as you know what is really what in our images! You can create more artifacts then corrections if your not careful.

 

Also just as a FYI Chad, 'Easy Astro Images' just released an HOO processing tutorial of the full Veil. Have not watched it yet but will late this afternoon. https://www.youtube....h?v=2BM3_OoHQB4



#20 auroraTDunn

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Posted 03 July 2024 - 04:08 PM

There's really not a wrong way to frame the Veil, and a few-hour test of your panels like you've done is a great way to try your framing. Only additional suggestion is that if there are any particular filaments you want in-frame, perhaps check out other examples to make sure they fit. Below is an example of just starless Ha so you can see some of the surroundings.

 

attachicon.gif veil-h-small.jpg

So after Blinking and stacking I only got 47 300sec subs on Ha last night, stupid clouds that ONLY sat on top of Cygnus last night! But I'm highly happy with what I got. I'm def going to be pushing the hours on this thanks to you! Just going to switch to Oiii and then Sii while theres basically no moon. Then I'll switch back to Ha will the moon becomes an issue later this month. Totally going to skip the project I intended on doing this summer, again thanks to youbow.gif
 



#21 Zambiadarkskies

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Posted 04 July 2024 - 11:46 AM

I have been pleased with the mosaic integration tools in APP, including the multi-band blending and the local normalization correction tools in the integration module. Combined with the light pollution tool APP has worked well in most cases.

Agreed.  Mosaics is a main reason why I keep my rental subscription to APP.  



#22 jml79

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Posted 04 July 2024 - 12:43 PM

I had a real challenging mosaic last year, 4 panels of the cosmic question mark. I stacked each panel and channel separately and carefully used GraXpert (pre AI) to remove the gradients before combining the panels. All of the stacking and combining was done in APP and editing in PI and Affinity. Click through to Abin for the full res image. I actually reused the data, drizzled it and added some Ha as a Lum layer from my longer scope (sampling at 0.84 arc seconds) to make an image of the flaming skull. Stacked, drizzled and combined in APP then star matched to the much higher sampled Lum(Ha) layer in PI. APP is awesome.

 

get.jpg?insecure

 

get.jpg?insecure


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#23 JimCase

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Posted 04 July 2024 - 02:04 PM

Great work! I am trying to sort out the extra value of using a larger scope like my 8” LX200 ACF or my AT115 with a multi-panel mosaic vs. extra exposures with my smaller scopes such as the Recat51 or the Meade 80mm APO. Sometimes it has yielded higher quality to integrate exposures from two or more setups, something that APP supports well with the mosaic registration. It has been interesting to explore the various possibilities and to attempt to construct my own “guidelines “ how to optimize quality with the various setups available.


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