35 replies to this topic

[GOLGO13]

I am opposed to presenting NV to observers who don’t ask for it. If they ask, that’s different.

I am very opposed to showing it to the public . I feel it’s no different than the color pictures on the box , gives the wrong expectation and sticker shock.

That's kind of my opinion also. The only time I had my NV out with the majority of my club members there was for an event where we were looking for a comet. It was pretty hard to see without the NV. We did use it once many people left for the night in the 16 inch SCT. The core of the Orion Nebula looked like Tree Beard from the Lord of the Rings movie (big walking tree). 

 

But yes, I do hesitate sometimes on that. My opinion for the public is more showing the Moon and the planets if possible. And any telescope can show those well. That's what hooked me on the hobby. And I had a less than ideal telescope for those (Meade ETX 70mm F5 refractor). 

 

I feel like NV is sort of an in-between astrophotography and visual (depending on the object). I suppose in a gigantic fast dob it could rival some astrophotography. The real time nature of it is where it helps. I've found it is helpful with my kids and family. They actually get to see something vice a grey smudge. Especially in my light polluted skies. The Seestar is pretty good in this capacity also, but it's not real time. Could do both at the same time.

[Mazerski]

One final comment: when I invite people over to my house to look at sky and I mention NV they are excited to look. The Flagstaff event was the first gathering of strangers I was mixed in with and I assumed they would also be game to look. 

[WheezyGod]

I had two star party events so far with my local club. In the first, it was mostly clouds where the club president announced I had brought it after I told him in advance. There was a break in the clouds for 10min where I passed it around as long as people sat down. Afterwards, most people left aside from a couple AP guys who were impressed and were trying to think of setup options to do legit mono AP with NV.

The second time it was much more cleae. I didn’t proactively say anything to anyone, but was expecting some people to come over, and they did. Before showing anyone I did warn each person, especially those new to astronomy that this is a fairly expensive visual setup that will show them a lot more than they’d see normally. Their reactions brought over more people wanting to take a look at the NA nebula. Proactively asked some others who kept looking over, most of whom took the bait.

Similar to the OP, someone else also had NV in this 2nd instance where the view was also a bit blurry compared to what I see through mine. Could have been his scope though.

I do really love the social aspect of star parties. I always think I’m going to take a look at some new targets that I don’t see in my backyard, but most of the time I’m talking with others about different setups. Luckily my club has pretty casual members that cater to gaining interest of new members. Been cancelled so far this year. New England has been rough weather wise since April.

[GOLGO13]

https://www.cloudyni.../#entry13561466

[Armanos]

For public outreach I usually bring 2 scopes. I'll put a bright globular or double star or planet in my 10" dob, and one of the big showpiece nebula in my 80mm refractor with the night vision.

I like to suggest people use their non dominant eye for the NV if they want to preserve dark adaptation, but I find the public events have so much light for illuminating walking paths/safety using the NV doesn't really bother me personally.

If I'm at a truly dark site with a handful of other enthusiasts, I'll save the NV u til I am done with glass eyepieces for the night

Hi,

Incidentally, what kind of 80-mm refractor are you using your night vision device with? I want to use mine on a SkyWatcher 80-mm short tube refractor, but it does not have enough focuser back travel.. I don't want to use a diagonal.

[slavicek]

I am opposed to presenting NV to observers who don’t ask for it. If they ask, that’s different.

I am very opposed to showing it to the public . I feel it’s no different than the color pictures on the box , gives the wrong expectation and sticker shock.
 

Also, when people with an accent show up at my dark observing site I have to keep on my mind that I cannot let non-us citizen look thru the NV. How do I know if he or she is us citizen? I have an accent too. Shall I ask for prove of citizenship? That would be awkward. So I keep it simple. While there are visitors around I show them M13 (etc.) in 6 mm Ethos... and it's wow! When they leave I can go back to my "enhanced" stuff.

And it is true that NV messes up my dark adaptation, even when dimmed. So I try to plan accordingly. And I also understand why people might get upset because of that.

Also, I do not like to talk to visitors about the cost of my equipment because the word might spread around and might get robbed one of these days! You never know who is listening.

[sixela]

non-us citizen

look through

[Rolls eyes] We've been through that quite a number of times and that is inaccurate, but of course no one can force you to do anything you don't want.

[slavicek]

[Rolls eyes] We've been through that quite a number of times and that is inaccurate, but of course no one can force you to do anything you don't want.

Here in the US I believe it's called ITAR. Google it. They are very strict here about the NVD. I cannot take it with me even to Europe (to NATO country). To get around ITAR I was thinking about buying (more expensive) European NVD. But it's a no go. Once I bring European NVD to the US, ITAR rules. Breaking ITAR rules is punishable up to 10 years in jail. I do not want to be the one who will find out if they really mean it... 

If you are ever planing to come here with your NVD, keep the above on your mind. You might need "export licence" to take your NVD home. That is, of course, if US customs would find out about it 

[sixela]

I've more than "Googled" ITAR, there's no need to be so condescending...I used to work for a foreign subsidiary of a US company that was selling some export-controlled items.

https://www.ecfr.gov.../part-127#127.1

And yes, you cannot take it to Europe (without an export license that you do not have). This is a non-controversial statement (and very true). And no, I do not plan to bring one of my NVDs to the US. Anything trying to state I don't agree with that is a strawman.

On the other hand, you seem to confuse "US person" with "US citizen" and also seem to confuse "instructing people in the use of an ITAR-regulated device" and letting them look through one. What you cannot do hinges on your interpretation of this:
 

22 CFR §120.9 Defense service.

(a) Defense service means:

(1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing or use of defense articles.

Telling someone where the on-switch is? That's skating on thin ice. Telling them in what end to look? Perhaps. Telling them how the diopter on the eyepiece works? Perhaps. Allowing someone to look through it while you have your back turned? How are you furnishing "assistance" and thus a "defense service"?

But frankly: read this restrictively, no one on this forum would ever be allowed to discuss these devices, since you can't assist me in the use of a US PVS-14 with Gen 3 tube --regardless of whether I have one or not-- by posting anything about the use of these devices, since I am a foreign person and it says "whether in the US or abroad" (never mind that I can get perfectly legal and non-ITAR regulated PVS-14 with Gen3 over here, there are no real secrets left about the use of these devices).

Many web sites of US vendors touting NVDs could be construed to violate this requirement and be seen as "offering defense services" to people abroad if you really wanted to be paranoid; it would often seem to be a much clearer violation than allowing someone to look through one.

And I'm not even talking about the PDF manuals you can find online on US web sites (which do tell you where the on-switch is, what end to look through and how to adjust the diopter) or the countless Youtube tutorials (often put online by US vendors).

The definition of "defense service" is broad on purpose, to allow prosecution of anyone in the US the federal government would reasonably choose to prosecute, without being hindered by the letter of the law.

"Foreign persons", by the way, are not "anyone not a US citizen". Some US citizens may be considered (in a very restrictive reading of ITAR some companies use out of an abundance of caution) foreign persons and most US resident aliens are not.

That has been beaten to death, though, so I won't say more about it.

Edited by sixela, 17 July 2024 - 06:52 AM.

[Speedy1985]

At the end of the day, if you are accused by the authorities about the use of your device and a violation of ITAR, it’s more than likely not going to turn out well for you trying to fight it. That said, I’m pretty sure there aren’t too many “secret agents” out on the astronomy field looking for violations, so keep it in country and you’re good. 

Edited by Speedy1985, 17 July 2024 - 07:08 AM.

[sixela]

I'd be more worried about abuse of overly broad legal definitions by the authorities in other countries than the US, frankly. But since I'm not living in the US I don't need to worry about either that or ITAR (unless when I am in the US).

I don't think keeping it in country is necessarily enough to keep out of trouble. Setting up a company that actually sells training in the use of the devices in a tactical setting to foreigners, that may also attract unwanted attention from the authorities. So would attempts to reverse engineer exactly how to duplicate technologies in the Gen 3 tubes and informing foreigners, even if no device ever left the US.

There are things that can be only be construed as "defense services" if you're really paranoid and are willfully oblivious to knowledge that is in the public domain or trivial, and then there are things that are blatantly obviously defence [sic] services.

I'll let anyone draw the line they are personally comfortable with (even if it is "not telling anyone they have a device, not discussing it with anyone unless their interlocutor is a US person and not working for a foreign company, and not participating in any forum that discusses them" which is the only really maximally safe option). What I object to is people just parroting some opinions they have about it --or worse, the opinion of others-- as if they were absolute truths and just shouting "ITAR" as if it were a magic incantation.

The US is not alone in having some rules that are hard to interpret if you are paranoid. In Belgium, I cannot have an NVD if it is mounted on a hunting weapon or if it can be mounted on such a weapon. That last wording was added when hunters tried to just carry them separated from their weapon to claim adherence to the law. I'm not entirely worried it applies to me, even though, if I were paranoid, tying one of my NVDs to a hunting weapon --which I do not have-- with duct tape is actually possible and could be construed as "mounting".

Edited by sixela, 17 July 2024 - 10:56 AM.