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first telescope - help for decision appreciated

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#1 AlainN

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Posted 09 August 2024 - 10:22 AM

Hi guys,

 

I could need some assistance for choosing the right telescope for astrophotography as I´m a total beginner.
I´m looking for a 400-800mm focal length telescope to take picture of the usual DSO suspects (Andromeda, great nebulae). As I have to drive 0.5 to 1 hour to be in the right spot, I cannot let the camera run all night but have just 2-3 hours for a session so that a fast aperture is highly appreciated  (when I´m understanding correctly).

 

For the beginning I plan to use my Canon EOS R5 as camera, AM5 with a Berlebach Uni18 tripod, ASIair, EAF etc. and switch later to a full frame mono from ZWO incl filters.

 

Budget for the telescope would be somewhere around 2000-2500 € (2200-2800 $). If a bit higher invest would come with significant better quality results then I´m ready to pay for it too.

 

Here some telescopes that I ran across quite often during my researches:

 

Esprit 100ED – just 40mm image circle but my sensor is 43.26mm. So this won´t work, will it? Need of flattener
Askar FRA 500/600 – no flattener needed?
Askar AP 107 PHQ – just f7 (how much does this matter in time spent versus an f5.5?)
ZWO FF107 (seems to be identical for the Askar AP 107) – just f7
TS Optics 94EDHP – what about this one?

Omegon Pro APO AP 108/600

 

 

Any suggestions for me? Whith what telescope would I get the sharpest results in a least time spent and what is the easiest to use?

Thanks

Alain


Edited by AlainN, 09 August 2024 - 10:53 AM.


#2 Overtime

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Posted 09 August 2024 - 10:34 AM

Don't go cheep like I did. It came with free headaches. Its been almost a month of trying to get it to work. Now I am hoping for some nice clear night skies to test it out.



#3 jrazz

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Posted 09 August 2024 - 10:44 AM

What mount do you plan on using?



#4 AlainN

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Posted 09 August 2024 - 10:48 AM

Don't go cheep like I did. It came with free headaches. Its been almost a month of trying to get it to work. Now I am hoping for some nice clear night skies to test it out.

What do you mean by cheap? 

 

 

What mount do you plan on using?

As written above, the ZWO AM5 with a Berlebach UNI18 (https://www.berlebac...=details&id=139)



#5 SoCalPaul

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Posted 09 August 2024 - 11:00 AM

I agree with Overtime and would also suggest that you invest in the highest quality, most accurate mount you can afford. Back when I was doing imaging, the rule-of-thumb was to cut the manufacturer's weight capacity rating in half. So if your total imaging outfit will weigh 12 pounds, you need a mount rated at least 24 pounds.

 

A great telescope and camera on a mediocre mount will create headaches and probably frustrate the heck out of you.

 

Clear skies,

Paul



#6 alanajones

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Posted 09 August 2024 - 11:58 AM

As has been pointed out by Jazz, yes the scope is important but your mount should just as much be influencing your scope choice to keep it within realistic weight, stability, and reliable tracking limits for astrophotography.

 

Just because an AM5 can cope with up to 20lbs it doesn't mean its good for decent astrophotography up to 20lbs. Whatever configuration you use it has to be absolutely rock solid, stable, and track well. In the absence of real test data the old rule of thumb for astrophotography was to assume loading it to half the manufacturer’s advertised payload. I would say if your mount choice is fixed for now, be really realistic about what is achievable with that mount and don't get swayed by marketing which significantly increases the weight loading (e.g. aperture fever).

 

I followed a similar astrophotography route to you and had exactly the same ambitions. I started around 25 years ago. I still have the same 617mm APO refractor, but I have been through 3 mounts in that time. I was very very reluctant to change mounts and these decisions were not taken lightly at all (option of absolute last resort) and were delayed as long as practical by putting the system on weight loss programs, but it still ended up at 3.

 

The more you add on the extras for your future ambitions, the weight just keeps going up bit by bit, even when being as frugal and weight-thoughtful as possible. I honestly thought my EM-11 (second mount) would see me through for life but then moved from DSLRs to true astro cameras. Then for convenience and cold nights you find you want a mini pc for remote camera operation, then the electronic focuser to stop wobbling and remote operation, then the camera for the finderscope/guidescope, then the more rigid extension rings/tubes to get the camera(s) in focus and to stop the optical system bending, then bigger/longer dovetails, etc, etc, etc. It all really adds up. Suddenly you wonder why you no longer get nice images out of your nice astro setup, and it can take a long time to work out the cause. The mount has gone past its optimum loading for astrophotography. I could easily have stayed with my EM-11 for visual astronomy but for astrophotography I had to move to an EM-200 (luckily a good second-hand one became available) for what is a pretty small 4" scope with those extra bits and bigger dovetails on it, and its still a very simple setup compared with many people's.

 

Also worth thinking about if you mean 'sharp' or if you mean 'detail'. Detail will only come with a larger aperture (assuming your local atmosphere can cope with it) which also means significantly higher weight, and for refractors, significantly higher cost. What people think of as 'sharp' is often about the scope's optical quality and, as has been said above, in most cases it means investing in a true high-quality scope. If on a fixed budget, have a serious think, is it 'detail' or 'sharpness' you want. For your use cases I would personally always favour investment in a higher quality 'sharper' scope that immediately gives you that image pop and ‘wow’ factor, than a larger poorer quality scope which gives more ‘detail’.

 

With regards to the telescope shortlist, some of the WIllian Optics FLT (fluorite glass) range are within your financial reach, e.g. FLT-91.

 

If you are keeping the AM5 mount for a long time and want really 'wow' images, another option is to invest in very 'sharp' highest quality smaller aperture scopes. This is because it can always be re-purposed later as a finderscope/gudescope/portable scope later if your ambitions move towards to a larger scope (on a larger mount) later. The smaller, very high quality, Takahashi scopes are within your price range and focal length. I find the 'sharper' photos of big things (Andromeda, M45, North America Nebule, etc) are far more 'wow' from my well-made smaller Takahashi scope (60mm aperture) than my larger (more detailed) fluorite Taiwanese 4" scope (which is by no means a poor-quality scope either).

 

Also consider trying the astro object simulators (e.g. astronomy.tools) for your objects of interest with your scope/camera combos; it might shorten your list more. You may struggle to fit the full extent of bigger objects (e.g. M31) at the upper end of your focal length range. Possibly just about with the full-frame sensor on your DSLR, but are you prepared to pay the cost of the full-frame sensor astro camera when you start upgrading (bare minimum of 3000 EUR at today's prices).

 

Hope this helps


Edited by alanajones, 10 August 2024 - 03:12 AM.

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#7 AlainN

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Posted 09 August 2024 - 12:15 PM

So you all doesn´t seem to like the AM5. Just heard good things about it but ok, what would you suggest instead?



#8 Tydude4christ

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Posted 09 August 2024 - 01:15 PM

I'm not sure the others saw that you were going to go with the AM5. It's a terrific mount, but auto-guiding is a must. It handles our remote Skywatcher 190mm Mak Newt at about 30 lbs with no issue so long as there's little wind.

As for simplicity a small refractor is really nice as you don't have to fuss with collimation. A petzval design makes it even simpler as you don't need to worry about back focus.

Be aware that many cheaper telescopes claim they handle full frame cameras but their performance in the corners leaves a lot to be desired.

I personally use a Stellarvue SVX130T from home and it works pretty well with a full frame camera. If looking at the upper end, you may consider a Stellarvue SVX90T.

When getting started be prepared that you'll have other things to purchase and learn to use such as processing software such as Pixinsight and BlurXterminator.

You'll also need to learn to take and apply calibration frames, flats being the most important for modern cameras which handle optical train gradients such as vignetting, as well as dust motes on the sensor. I personally just use a cheap LED light tracing box with some paper and a plexi glass diffuser.



#9 Bikeboy60

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Posted 09 August 2024 - 07:40 PM

I have and have had the Stellarvue SVX90T and SVX102T. Phenomenal workmanship and optics.  I will also second the SVX130T if it is in your budget.

 

Vic and the SV crew are awesome to work with if you have questions.

 

Keep Looking Up,

Bob



#10 alanajones

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Posted 10 August 2024 - 01:44 AM

Hi, I forgot to mention above about your focal ratio question.

 

In reality all scopes and cameras are different and the capture time depends on many things like the camera's pixel size, quantum efficency, scope optics, etc, etc. You can get a rough idea of the difference the focal ratio makes but you have to accept some broad assumptions.

 

The first main assumption is it is the same scope optical (glass) design. This isn't actually an unreasonable assumption for you. You are looking at all refractors. You are sticking within a broadly similar price/quality range. Yes some may have a bit more glass or better light passing ability than others but not enough to make a noticeable difference in exposure time for you.

 

The second main assumption is the same camera is fitted to it

 

Then you just change the focal ratio. If you double the focal ratio you quadruple the capture time. If you halve the focal ratio you quarter the capture time.

 

A simple way to calculate it for your example above would be:

 

f5.5 squared = 30.25

f7 squared = 49

 

Then do 49/30.25 to get the exposure difference, so if all things are equal (other than the focal ratio) the f7 will require around 1.6x longer exposure time than the f5.5.



#11 AlainN

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Posted 10 August 2024 - 07:35 AM

Thanks so far. I guess I will try the Esprit100ED then. Would you advise me a OAG with a 8x8 or 12x12 prism?



#12 SilverLitz

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Posted 10 August 2024 - 03:03 PM

I doubt any of these will be great in the corners of full-frame with small pixels, though with BXT things can be corrected.  Though well before BXT, I have heard from several that the Esprit 100 worked with full-frame.  I have had an Esprit 100 for more than 5 years, and it has been terrific with small pixel APS-C, QHY268M, even reduced to 413mm @ fast f/4.13 (2019 version of TSAPORED075; or current Riccardi), but never tried with full-frame except from some initial testing with a Canon 5Dmk2.  The Esprit comes standard with a dedicated FF.

 

I would also look at SVX090T, 540mm @ f/6, very close to the Esprit 100 (550mm @ f/5.5).  I have had one for a few months, and so far it is good, but I have not imaged enough with it to compare with my Esprit 100 or Stowaway.  But its image quality is very good, and its mechanical (3" SV focuser) and build quality is superior to the Espirt.  The SVX090T is attractively priced with FF, risers, and Losmandy rail at $2895 (was $200 off this a few weeks ago), which is $300 less than the Espirt (unless on sale).

 

Either one of these can make excellent wide-field images.




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