126 replies to this topic

[Akarsh Simha]

I was considering registering to be on the field, but right now funds are tight and the off-site visitor fee has doubled. In fact given that my round-trip fuel expense from California is about $600 at current gas prices (the one thing that seems to be unaffected by inflation now?), the $300 would introduce nearly a 50% increase over my travel costs (not including food).

Thanks for the breakdown, Karl, I think the pricing seems to make sense for people who like the frills, but for no-frills observers this makes TSP a no-go (which is fine, there's plenty of other star parties and TSP's distinction was the frills)

 

That being said, I imagine there will be a lot of visual astronomers in Fort Davis who are in the area, registered for TSP or not. It'd be nice if we could gather for a meet and greet somewhere in town.

Edited by Akarsh Simha, 22 December 2024 - 01:58 AM.

[Karl_B]

Here is a great list of available accommodations in and around Fort Davis for those who desire different creature comforts from what Prude Guest Ranch provides.

 

Rgds

Karl

 

https://bigbendtimes...-in-fort-davis/

[Karl_B]

Hi baker_belays,

 

Please keep in mind that Texas Star Party, Inc., the hosting organization for all TSP star parties, do not set the prices for the accommodations at any venue that TSP hosts a star party. TSP does not take the accommodation prices and treat them as a wholesale charge.  Meaning that TSP does not add any amount to the accommodation/lodging charges. 

 

TSP charges a registration fee. and in the case of/for TSP 2025 as in all previous years, Prude Guest Ranch charges their lodging rates.

 

Starting in 2025, TSP will collect  the TSP registration fees and all of the Prude Guest Ranch lodging charges from the attendee and pass the Prude Guest Ranch lodging charges on to Prude.

 

Something that the majority of attendees do not know about. TSP on behalf of all attendees pays each Prude ranch staff a gratuity. Even though, each attendee is paying for their own lodging and if this were a tour group or an ocean cruise, each attendee would pay their own gratuity. Just think what adding 15% or 20% to your Prude accommodation charges would be for each attendee.  Texas Star Party, pays that gratuity out of what TSP collects in each year's star party.

 

 

Being on the inside as I am, I know what a star party of the caliber that TSP is and what it costs to host.  OkieTex is hosted at a venue where there is little to no infrastructure.  There is hardly any paid staff. There is little to no available covered housing.  As I understand it, correct me if wrong, no RV sites with service hooksup.  Predomininantly everyone is tent or dry camping. Kitchen is not a commercial grade restaurant kitchen. Mostly portable toilets.  It is an apples to oranges  comparison.

 

OkieTex staff are all volunteers vs TSP staff also being all volunteers.
Any infrastructure support staff paid staff and OkieTex but probably only the kitchen crew.  Vs Prude Guest Ranch where everyone is paid staff and it is a commercial operation 365 days per year.

 

TSP has to pay Prude 1,000's of dollars to obtain the exclusive use of Prude Guest Ranch. If TSP did not pay this cover fee, Prude could rent out lodging to anyone during the star party. And when I state anyone, I mean anyone including guests who are not amateur astronomers who won't and don't give a care about dark out conditions or star party etiquette.

 

Prude has to pay staff. That is a big overhead.

 

TSP has to pay cover fee, equipment rental, equipment rental insurance, equipment shipping costs, the ranch staff gratuity before I even get into the cost of supplies, travel costs for guest speakes, door prizes, free seminars, travel costs to  bring equipment and supplies to the ranch and all of the consumables used at each star party and all of these items and more constitute a very large overhead in expenses. Star Parties are expensive to host and harder to staff, expecially when the staff is made up 100 percent by volunteers (TSP staff not Prude or the venue's staff).  If staff party hosting organizations had to employ paid staff, the star party's registration fee would probably cost as much as the accommodations cost.

And inflation has not been kind to how discretionary funds are spent.

 

And if I use the last West Texas Star Party hosted by Prude Guest Ranch and not TSP. An event that was only, "Observe and/or astro-image; go to sleep, get up eat 2 meals, observe/astro-image" and no TSP type of hosted event with the TSP format of activities, only 80 people attended this year's Prude hosted event. In 2021 when Prude hosted the same type of event, only 86 to 90 attended. That is 2 recent non TSP where the attendees just observed/imaged, ate and slept star parties and only 1/4 of the normal TSP star party came out.

 

And that is just about 20 to 30 less than what goes to the El Dorado Star Party where it is pretty much the same as what Prude hosted in 2021 and 2024.

 

TSP would be in the red $1,000's if all we hosted a star party for only those who wanted to do nothing more than observe/image, eat, sleep and get up and repeat.

 

The venue owners/management can put on a barebones star party because their don't have to pay someone a cover fee, and yes OkieTex has the equivalent of a cover fee. But they do not have a volunteer staff that will spend all of the months or man/hours to plan, organize, recruit volunteers, order supplies, recruit featured guest speakes, prepare observing challenges, collect door prizes, recruite sponsors and vendors, design tee shirts and other items, etc.  They do not have the resources to accomplish that logictical challenge.

 

But they can, if they have the power cords (Which Prude borrows the older power cords that OkieTex has retired) deploy a power grid and point you to a field to observ/image from. Cook a noon and evening meal and point you to your lodging.  They still need volunteers to dark out the ranch and to take it all down afterwards.

What they don't have is a $20,000 to $25,000 lead ball strapped to their ankle just to set foot on the property and to obtain exclusive use of the property and to pay for other items the ranch does not have that TSP has to acquire.

If Prude only has 80 to 100 attending their barebones star party and another group from say one of the private schools wants to stay on the ranch during the same week and they are brininging 30 to 60 bodies. Does anyone see the Prude turning them away when they have 220 open accommodations they can fill?

TSP hosted star parties are events that offer more than just observe/image, sleep, eat and repeat. On average there are 300+ attendees that want more than the observe/image, eat, sleep and repeat attendee. The Prude's 2021 and the 2024 star party proves that.

2021 and 2024 provided exactly what many here on Cloudy Nights state is the type of event they want. But the attendee numbers do not support that.  There are more who are not voicing what they want on Cloudy Nights but cast their vote in numbers. Numbers derived by the difference in the attendance numbers of how many attende a barebones star party versus one with the frills and thrills as has been expressed of what OkieTex and TSP hosts.

80 to 100 attendees is not 400+ attendees no matter how one does the head count.

 

I wish the expenses were lower, I truly do. But TSP as well as OkieTex, Winter Star Party and other star parties have to price their registration fees to cover their event costs and annual costs to at least break even. And the lodging costs are what the venue tells us to charge with no markup.

And yes, I respect everyone's right to cast their vote of approval and/or disapproval by attending or not attending.

I am competing for how one spends their discretionary money and vacation time from work. I have to package an event that does more than just obseve/image, sleep, eat and repeat.  The attendance numbers do not support any nonprofit organization hosting that type of star party.

 

Keep in mind that the El Dorado Star Party is hosted by X-Bar ranch with the help of some of the Texas Astronomical clubs and the Prude's West Texas Star Party, i.e. 2021 and 2024 was hosted by Prude with minimal assistance from TSP staff and OkieTex staff volunteering as individuals and not representing either organization. Both veunues own the property. Hence no cover fee that has to be paid. The property owners made their money off of the lodging rentals and paid meals.

 

 

I can't control inflation and I can't control what the venue charges for lodging.  I have expenses that require registration fees to be collected from each attendee. TSP is collecting the registration fees and lodging fees as a bundled package and transferring the Prude portion to Prude. TSP does not add a markup to the Prude lodging rates. Every dollar that is Prude lodging goes to Prude less PayPal processing fees.

 

That is about as transparent as I can be in explaining the financial aspects of hosting a star party.

 

What is a shock for me was last March when I was in Marfa and then later in Fort Davis, the cost of a chicken fried steak or a hamburger the size of a McDonald's kid's burger was $19.00 and the amount of french fries was what you could vertically stick into a childs water glass.

A new  york strip was $47.00.

 

Yep inflation is the "B" word.

 

Happy New Year everyone. It will be an interesting year to be sure!

 

rgds

Karl

[badolputtytat]

Hello Karl,

I acknowledge the fact that you and TSP(Texas Star Party) staff are volunteers.  Your time and theirs is much appreciated.  For that reason, I do not want to criticize you as if you were paid.  However, I do want to point out something with which I disagree.  Your conviction that the WTSP attendance numbers were low because nobody wants a bare bones star party is without some facts.

 
I made four trips to Prude since 2019, two TSP and two WTSP (Prude) events.  The first WTSP was during full blown COVID 19, and TSP backed out.  Some, like myself, even donated the prior down payment to the ranch. Many folks did not attend because they were probably scared of COVID.  If I remember correctly, the TSP liability insurance would not cover the star party event.  As it turned out, the ranch supplied the meals and folks entertained themselves.  It was a nice, peaceful event.  
The second WTSP event happened because TSP backed out again and decided to chase the highly hyped solar eclipse.  You mentioned the TSP volunteer staff would be burned out and folks would spend all their dollars on the eclipse event instead.  As a result, the ranch did it again, just like before.  This time there were other people using the ranch during WTSP.  Some young students stayed in three bunkhouses I believe.  They did their activities during the day, and we did ours at night. The ranch told them to respect the night sky for us and there were no issues that I can recall. Again a nice, peaceful event.

In terms of the ranch, there has been little maintenance to facilities since 2019 to 2024.  The bath houses’ toilets ran nonstop at times, filling the system with water and backing sewer gas into the cabins.  Privacy doors fell off in the bathhouses and were not replaced. If folks are going to spend big dollars for lodging, this should be addressed with the owners and/or management during negotiations.

It seems, from the outside looking in, the eclipse event has set a new higher standard of pay to play.  I don’t think people are expecting TSP to entertain them every minute of the day, but perhaps TSP could get somewhere in between.  If not, it could open the door for a new startup or venue.

 

Happy New Year!

 

Best,

Russ

[Akarsh Simha]

Thanks for the very transparent post Karl. Has TSP considered talking to Lajitas and see if they offer a better proposition? I've not come across a deal where an astronomy group has to pay extra money to get exclusive access to a property while also fully booking out accommodations at the property, perhaps it's the norm. I really loved everything TSP has stood for in our community and would like to see many more people be able to access it.

[Rgwood88]

I have previously attended 7 TSP's and found them very worthwhile. I've stayed both on and off site. My work life got in the way of attending recently however my retirement in '23 was about to change all that. I was disappointed with the cancellation of TSP in '24 and looked forward to TSP '25. However, with the new fee structure and the continual degradation of the ranch facilities, I regret I will not be attending TSP'25. 

[Keith Rivich]

You mean to tell us the Ranch facilities were at one time in better shape? 

[lphilpot]

You mean to tell us the Ranch facilities were at one time in better shape? 

In 1945 

[John Fitzgerald]

I have previously attended 7 TSP's and found them very worthwhile. I've stayed both on and off site. My work life got in the way of attending recently however my retirement in '23 was about to change all that. I was disappointed with the cancellation of TSP in '24 and looked forward to TSP '25. However, with the new fee structure and the continual degradation of the ranch facilities, I regret I will not be attending TSP'25. 

I was done after the 2019 event.  Not worth it to me any more.  The travel, winds, dust, and poor facilities all contribute.  The higher fees are only secondary.

[Keith Rivich]

I was done after the 2019 event.  Not worth it to me any more.  The travel, winds, dust, and poor facilities all contribute.  The higher fees are only secondary.

At least they have facilities. Nice to be able to crawl into a queen bed and get 6 or 7 hours quality sleep! 

[John Fitzgerald]

At least they have facilities. Nice to be able to crawl into a queen bed and get 6 or 7 hours quality sleep! 

I have heard hearsay talk about the Prude Ranch rooms being run down and dirty.   Any truth to that?   Of course, different people have different perspectives as to cleanliness.

[Keith Rivich]

I have heard hearsay talk about the Prude Ranch rooms being run down and dirty.   Any truth to that?   Of course, different people have different perspectives as to cleanliness.

No truth to that. The rooms are plain but they are neat, clean and comfortable. My last stay was in 2023. 

[Tempus]

Keith, I do agree they are best described as 'rustic'. They aren't actually that bad and they are convenient. We've only stayed in rooms 1, 12 and 13 across our last 5 TSPs. I haven't stayed in a bunkhouse since the early 1990s or so I have no opinion on their current status and we've never stayed in a family cabin.

 

I have to ask, have you ever had any 'uninvited' guests in your room? We had two delightful frogs living in the sink overflow drain in 2019. 

Edited by Tempus, 11 January 2025 - 02:09 PM.

[lphilpot]

I have to ask, have you ever had any 'uninvited' guests in your room? We had two delightful frogs living in the sink overflow drain in 2019. 

I'm not Keith but we once had a visit from Floyd the Skunk. The better part of 20 years ago my wife, daughter and I were in the (hilariously named) Penthouse family cabin. I was sleeping downstairs and both of them upstairs. The outside stairway was a half-up / half-down affair with the center at ground level. We went down one night after dark, following my faint red light and encountered Floyd sitting on the bottom landing waiting to be let in (I guess)! We beat a hasty retreat but I don't think he was even bothered. He just slowly sauntered up and away.

 

My first year (1989) I had a scorpion take a shower with me, but that ended with his "decision" to go down the bunkhouse shower drain. I wasn't exactly in prime fighting form while in the shower, so I decided a good offense was the best defense.

[Keith Rivich]

Like Len I have had a few scorpions over the years. Little ones looking for water I suppose. I just use a cup and scoop them up and put them under the building. I have never seen a skunk but I have smelled a few thinking they were tent camping astronomers upwind from me! 

 

The worst I have had was a few years ago. When I got to the room it was full of flies. Put Okie-Tex to shame. The previous tenant left a banana under the sink that went un-noticed by the cleaning staff and the flies used it for breeding grounds! The staff quickly found me another room and all was good. 

 

Speaking of staff. They are great. They don't come around bugging you about cleaning your room every morning, only stopping by if they see you are awake to see to your needs. 

[lphilpot]

Floyd the Skunk was great. He would wind his way between all the midnight snackers at the Snack Bar while we sat there eating in front of the window. He'd just look and waddle on by.

[bunyon]

I had a coffee break at 2 am once with Floyd. Cool dude. And a lovely coat. He moved on when I wouldn’t open my ice chest.

[DeanS]

Floyd licked out our ice cream bowls on the lower field one night.  This was before we actually knew about him.

[DarrylP796]

I'm headed to the Texas Star Party this year for the first time.  All my star parties to date have been visual only, enjoying the company of all those huge Dob owners, hi!

This year, I plan on doing some astrophotography at the TSP.

 

Questions for those that do astrophotography at the TSP.

 

- I understand that no wifi is allowed? Wired only? No mount wifi dongles or anything like that allowed?

- Does one set up a small tent next to the scope and run a wire into the tent and locate any light emitting devices inside the tent? I will probably have a laptop to control the scope, remoting into NINA, and that's about it.

- Is power available or should I plan on a battery bank?

- I'll be staying in an RV on site, so not sure where my scope will be allowed.  Next to RV? On one of the fields? The registration site seemed unclear.

- Do cell phones work at the Prude Ranch?

 

What questions am I too inexperienced to have asked?

[bentleyousley]

 

 

I have to ask, have you ever had any 'uninvited' guests in your room? We had two delightful frogs living in the sink overflow drain in 2019. 

 

Waiting for me in the sink in my room:

 

 

[Kurt_in_WI]

I'm headed to the Texas Star Party this year for the first time.  All my star parties to date have been visual only, enjoying the company of all those huge Dob owners, hi!

This year, I plan on doing some astrophotography at the TSP.

 

Questions for those that do astrophotography at the TSP.

 

- I understand that no wifi is allowed? Wired only? No mount wifi dongles or anything like that allowed?

- Does one set up a small tent next to the scope and run a wire into the tent and locate any light emitting devices inside the tent? I will probably have a laptop to control the scope, remoting into NINA, and that's about it.

- Is power available or should I plan on a battery bank?

- I'll be staying in an RV on site, so not sure where my scope will be allowed.  Next to RV? On one of the fields? The registration site seemed unclear.

- Do cell phones work at the Prude Ranch?

 

What questions am I too inexperienced to have asked?

Hi Darryl, welcome to TSP!  I can answer some of your questions.

 

I am not an imager but can offer some perspective as a visual observer who shares the field with imagers.

 

1. Wifi. Not sure what the rules are.  The concern is that all the wifi signals on the field will interfere with each other. Somebody else chime in here.

2. Small tent...  Depends on which field you set up on. If you are in an RV and want to observe near your RV, then you'll be in the RV field which I know little about and others with experience there can offer advice.

  What I can tell you is, if you choose to observe and image on the upper field, tents are allowed but must be in the outer boundary area outside the marked perimeter of the field. Many imagers set up a table and laptop station rather than working from a tent. Please if you do this, please use a dark filter over your laptop screen, point your screen away from the middle of the field, and use a deep shroud so your neighbors don't catch an eyeful of light.  Most imagers are polite and really try to shield their light but overall the upper field is getting brighter every year with screens and various LEDs, etc.

3.  There is a grid of power cords on the upper field (and middle field?) for powering telescopes.

4.  Cell service is hit and miss. Depends on your provider. There are various magic spots on the ranch where service seems to work.  Don't count on it though.

5.  Be prepared for wind, sun, and dust devils. Stake your equipment down and store delicate stuff out of the weather during the day.

 

 TSP is great.  You'll have a blast!  

Edited by Kurt_in_WI, 29 January 2025 - 01:08 AM.

[DarrylP796]

Kurt, 

 

Thank you for the reply!  I'm really looking forward to the trip.  Maybe we can meet up while there.

 

Karl gave me a call last night and he took the time to answer a lot of questions - thanks Karl!

 

Some things I found out:

 

-Wifi isn't prohibited, but given the number of people in close proximity, it is best to come prepared to run an ethernet cord to the mount if connectivity is needed. I plan on doing this to connect to my NINA computer on the mount.

-As you state Kurt, lot's of folks use the laptop in a tote method and many choose to set up a blackout tent or equivalent around the perimeter of the upper or middle fields.

-There will be electrical on the upper and middle fields, but one is asked to unplug the cord and leave the end outside the tent (if using that method) during the day so TSP personnel can see you aren't hooked up to a large load (space heater, cooking element, etc.)

- people have found the polypro (or other) beach blankets work well as a ground cover.

-Tie your scope down very well.  Large dustdevils have been known to throw scopes around and destroy them. Some folks use 9" timber screws drilled into the earth. While I don't own a large dob, make sure to let it wind vane and rotate so if it gets hit by a dust devil it has a better chance of survival.

-Cell phones don't work at the ranch unless in WiFi calling mode.  The cell signals go to zero about the time you enter the valley where the ranch is located. As you state Kurt, there are "magic spots".  I've read online about "the rock".  I look forward to the cell signal hunt.

-Obviously no white light.  Red filter material is your friend and lots of it. Watch edge leaks from screens.

- I asked about covering my scope (an imaging setup) during the day and the suggestion was, if not using one of the good commercial solutions, a layer of waterproof tarps and also reflective material (mylar, etc.) to keep the heat load off the scope during the day.

-While I don't plan on signing up for the meal plan since I'll be in an RV, I can get a meal if needed, they will take the money.  Best to ask for one in advance if possible so they can plan.

 

Right now my plan is to have my RV in its assigned slot next to the lower field,  but to set up on the east side of the middle field.  Probably with a blackout tent, but not sure yet.

 

Karl asked if I want to volunteer, like any good project president would do, and I'm hopeful to be able to do some volunteer setup work.  I like the idea of being able to get there a day or two early, meet folks and set up before the bulk of people get there.

 

Regards,

 

Darryl

Edited by DarrylP796, 29 January 2025 - 07:35 PM.

[John Fitzgerald]

The upper field seems to be the spot most prone to strong dust devils, but they can occur anywhere else on the ranch.

[Jrags815]

I use an ASI air pro for to control my rig will this be an issue at the star party ??

[DarrylP796]

Jrags815,

 

I think you are in the same situtation I am in with my MeLe Q3 running NINA.  It may work wireless, but there may be significant interference from other wifi and bluetooth signals nearby.  In that case you can run an ethernet cable from a laptop to the ASI AIR Pro. While I don't own an ASI AIR, a quick search on the internet showed a Gb Ethernet interface on the Pro model, so you should be OK if you have to run a wire if you normally run a laptop.  If you run a phone or tablet there are obvious issues in running a wire.

 

I'm going to try running mine wireless, with a cable to back me up if needed. My issue with be getting the MeLe Q3 to act as the DHCP server when I connect my laptop.  It isn't too hard to do and there are tutorial on line. Probably same with ASI Air.

 

Here is a CN thread on ASI Air and ethernet.

 

https://www.cloudyni...le-with-asiair/

 

Darryl