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Bah Humbug

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#1 mountain monk

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 03:27 PM

It was supposed to be great observing tonight. I checked.

 

Jet stream…well to the north.

Clouds…nope, clear.

Transparency…excellent to above average, depending on which astronomy site you believe.

Seeing…above average, ditto.

Smoke…the gov’s site, Air Now, says clear.

Smoke…the Wyoming gov’s air quality site says clear.

 

Wonderful! I start packing the car. When I open the front door I smell smoke. I drive down to the National Elk Refuge, five blocks, to look at the mountains. The valley is filled with smoke, the Teton Range a faded visage of itself. Heavy smoke up the Gros Ventre river valley where my favorite viewing sites are.

 

Curse, curse, curse. Astronomy is a harsh mistress. Bah Humbug. I think I’ll take up knitting.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack

 

 

 


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#2 tcifani

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 04:17 PM

I hear ya. When I'm heading out for a night of viewing, my wife often asks if I'm just a glutton for punishment.


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#3 maroubra_boy

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 04:22 PM

Were the ridge tops around the valley clear of smoke? Being in a valley is where dew & fog will settle & often heavy with lush agricultural land, not just a basin for dust & smoke to collect in - the ridge tops would be a better location. Weather apps don't talk about these aspects. Prof obs are not located in valleys for no reason... Something to consider for next time.

Edited by maroubra_boy, 05 September 2024 - 04:24 PM.

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#4 zizzapnia

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 04:55 PM

It was supposed to be great observing tonight. I checked.

 

Jet stream…well to the north.

Clouds…nope, clear.

Transparency…excellent to above average, depending on which astronomy site you believe.

Seeing…above average, ditto.

Smoke…the gov’s site, Air Now, says clear.

Smoke…the Wyoming gov’s air quality site says clear.

 

Wonderful! I start packing the car. When I open the front door I smell smoke. I drive down to the National Elk Refuge, five blocks, to look at the mountains. The valley is filled with smoke, the Teton Range a faded visage of itself. Heavy smoke up the Gros Ventre river valley where my favorite viewing sites are.

 

Curse, curse, curse. Astronomy is a harsh mistress. Bah Humbug. I think I’ll take up knitting.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack

Yeah, I feel your pain. Deciding on a no or no-go due to the smoke here in Virginia tonight.

 

Looks like it could be smoke from the Fish Creek wildfire. Astrospheric seems to have the most accurate smoke forecast, and it shows a pretty intense plume there that may be bigger than it shows.


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#5 zizzapnia

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 04:56 PM

P.S. Knitting is a more practical hobby.


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#6 SedonaRona

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 05:01 PM

It happens unfortunately.
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#7 mountain monk

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 05:36 PM

Yep, it’s the Fish Creek Fire. Most of our smoke this summer has been from California, Oregon, and Idaho, but Fish Creek is local—and one of my favorite places to fish. And it’s close, only thirty miles away. The winds in the mountains change a lot at night, so…hard to predict. I will check again late, and tomorrow night is supposed to be good, too. We’ll see. Love it up there—21.98 mpsas.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack


Edited by mountain monk, 05 September 2024 - 08:14 PM.

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#8 Keith Rivich

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 06:12 PM

Get yourself a Smart Scope for those really marginal nights. At least its some kind of astronomy...


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#9 maroubra_boy

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 06:46 PM

I looked up Jackson, Wyoming.  You are totally surrounded by mountains.  Yes, while the winds may change, these may be to your benefit with keeping things dry - moving air does not form dew.

 

My own Club goes up to the mountains immediately west of Sydney, not just for the darker skies, but to take advantage of the better astro conditions that they provide.  Of course, like every place, being able to use any location for astro depends on the weather of the day, but this is where you need to know & understand the conditions of the whole landscape, not just settle on one model that means you exclude a particular location based on preconceived ideas, urban myths and also misinformation.  For that reason while our preferred location is up in the mountains, weather may have the mountains clouded out but the Sydney basin may be clear, so we need to be flexible and open minded on what areas we do have access to so we can take advantage of where the clear sky is, even if this may mean a less transparent sky or one with more light pollution.

 

That there are mountains, and valleys, is good.  It means that on nights of little wind, air will flow down off the mountains into the valley below, creating laminar airflow on the ridgetops - EXACTLY what you want for good seeing.  This light breeze flowing down into the valley will be enough to help keep your gear dry all night long.  The site my Club used for 16 years, we had dew from on only 8 occasions and of these only 3 times was it heavy enough to impact on our optics.  The vast majority of nights we packed up bone dry gear or at worst with only light dew to deal with.  Knowing now that dew and astro are not inseparable bedfellows means I won't go to places that I know will drench my gear.

 

Transparency will also always be far superior up high than in a valley.

 

There is also the microclimate aspect that  no weather app will show.  Again with my Club's site, its geography, geology and land use meant it was most often totally clear of cloud and dry while just 2km away the area was fogged out and soaking wet!  And we had no idea about this until we had packed up and were on our way home.  Our site was on top of a sandstone plateau that had no agricultural land on it, only dry eucalypt forest and it was an airfield with a earth runway, not turf so it drained very well.

 

As it was an airfield it was very exposed to any wind.  However, it was lined with tall trees that offered protection and on nights when wind was difficult, we just needed to shift from our preferred spot to one that provided more shelter from the wind.

 

We are also very familiar with the seasonal weather patterns and always monitor daily conditions.  We often saw thunderstorms crash and smash the early evening, but we knew that in two hours time these would not only clear but the sky would be just spectacular.  We know that when there is a strong easterly wind blowing in from the coast the mountains would be a no-go for us as this moisture rich coastal wind would create clouds as it pushed up over the mountains.  We know this area very intimately.

 

It took us years to work out the microclimate aspect that ultimately directed us to the Airfield we ended up using, but we started from zero.  You however, are starting from a far better position, being made aware of things to look out for that we had to slowly come to recognise.

 

To further encourage you, my Club spent a long time looking for an even darker site to hold our Astro Camps (our Club's home site was Bortle 4, our Astro Camp site is Bortle 1).  In looking for this camp site we took everything we learned from our experience with the Airfield and applied it to this search.  For instance all formal camp grounds are NOT set up with astro in mind, so these will be 99% of the time in a valley or with a microclimate that is astro-crap.  Areas that are good for astro will often be poor with facilities.  It took us a year, but we found the best possible combination of a good astro site with outstanding facilities, and it isn't where most people would consider an astro site.  But we are not most people...

 

Poor over topo maps (Google Maps is great for this).  Go for a visit to prospective sites.  Ask the locals - airfields are great sources of info as it should be no surprise that pilots prefer to fly through the exact same conditions that give us great seeing, AND they really know the local weather patterns like no one else.  Other locals may either have a paddock they may be happy to offer you to set up on or may know of someone.

 

The pic below shows what I mean about setting up in a valley as being a poor option.  You really want to be up high.

 

Alex.

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  • Clear and fog filled.png

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#10 Echolight

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 07:04 PM

Found this for ya

 

https://www.knittingparadise.com/


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#11 mountain monk

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 07:11 PM

maroubra  boy,

 

Thank you for your interesting post. Although I spent much of five years in Asia and South America (Iwas was a mountain guide on treks and expeditions in the Himalayas, Karakoram, Hindu Kush, Tibet, China, and the Andes) This has been my home for most of the past sixty years, and I’ve written two books on the area. So I know it fairly well. I worked on a ranch up the Gros Ventre in the summer of 1962 and fell in love with the area. I use a variety of sites up there and in Grand Teton National Park ranging in elevation from 6, 500 feet to 9,000 feet, so I have quite a variety to choose from. I concur with many of your remarks and will ruminate on the rest of them. Thanks again.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack


Edited by mountain monk, 05 September 2024 - 07:13 PM.

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#12 maroubra_boy

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 08:04 PM

Hey Jack,

 

All it sometimes takes is someone to point out a link joining things you may already know but hadn't joined the dots.

 

Site selection is one of the least talked about aspects of amateur astronomy and the least well understood.  Everyone looks for an open grassy field but that is as far as their site selection criteria goes, and all too often it is the worst place because this lack of substantial consideration sees this open grassy field place in a dew trap...  Site selection takes time as one needs to take one's own individual situation into account.  The mountains to Sydney's west will have totally different seasonal weather patterns around Jackson in Wyoming just as the Sydney Basin will be different to the valleys where you are.  What does not change is the manner in which to investigate and patterns to look for.  There is no one-size-fits-all with site selection.  Not helping this is that professional astronomers DO NOT make the site selection investigations themselves just as they don't design or build the telescopes they use.  They may know what they want but it is other people that do the work.  Professional Astronomers essentially just take the keys when the job is done.  WE as amateurs all too often fail to see this and make decisions based more on fantasy than actual information and science - yes, said with a bit of hyperbole, but you get my meaning.  That we somehow have this "knowledge" that is based on some sort of spiritual osmosis just because we have a telescope but not from any actual knowledge.

 

The best example of this lack of knowledge is the sites that the majority of clubs use.  Members ASSUME that the appropriate site selection processes have been carried out for the site that their club uses.  Truth is that most club sites have been chosen with no more severe criteria than "this is an open grassy field away from bright city lights".  The various astro clubs in and around Sydney have this as their sole site selection criteria.  Only my own Club has undertaken any form of site selection studies and site selection understanding and we continue to use what we have learned to keep looking for new locations.  Few are the clubs anywhere that understand site selection and fewer the members that do too.

 

So, what started as a thread cussing of poor weather I hope has opened the eyes of people who read this that this is now an opportunity to learn something new and that what was once a seemingly hopeless situation of dew and poor astro conditions that it is possible to find a better situation and even multiple situations (sites) to take advantage of what mother nature throws up at us.  We have four sites in and around Sydney that we can use, not just one, so if our preferred site is no good then there is a chance one of our other sites could be clear if even though second best.


Edited by maroubra_boy, 05 September 2024 - 08:09 PM.

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#13 mountain monk

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Posted 05 September 2024 - 08:42 PM

I have always observed alone so I’ve not been constrained by a cub or other peoples opinions. Also, an old friend, a former climbing ranger who has owned a helicopter ski business, has run our local weather site for decades and his judgements are accepted by climbers and backcountry skiers who lives often depend on weather. He out performs any of the major weather sites because of his trove of local knowledge. I have learned a great deal from him. Many of our guides, who are also friends, create avalanche predictions for ski areas here and in Montana and Utah. Serious stuff. I guided here for forty years and was eventually president of our guide service and the guide service conducted extreme winter mountaineering courses for all our Special Forces, including all SEAL teams. All of that history affects my choice of observing sites. Alas, my technical knowledge of astronomy is meager! I observe for joy and beauty and have learned much of what I know from folks here on Cloudy Nights. I will study the technical aspects of the discipline in my next life. Thank you again for your comments.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack


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#14 City Kid

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Posted 06 September 2024 - 08:35 AM

 I spent much of five years in Asia and South America (I was a mountain guide on treks and expeditions in the Himalayas, Karakoram, Hindu Kush, Tibet, China, and the Andes) This has been my home for most of the past sixty years, and I’ve written two books on the area. 

You've had quite the life! 

What are the book titles?



#15 mountain monk

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Posted 06 September 2024 - 09:37 AM

Teewinot: A Year in the Teton Range, St. Martin’s Press, N.Y. (Horrible paperback title Teewinot: Climbing and Contemplating the Teton Range.)

 

Travels in the Greater Yellowstone, St. Martins Press, N.Y.

 

And also a collection of environmental essays: The Abstract Wild, University of Arizona Press, Tucson.

 

My life…it just happened. I certainly didn’t plan or intend it to be that way.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack


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#16 truckerfromaustin

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Posted 06 September 2024 - 11:48 AM

I hate to say it, but there's probably more smoke coming your way. I'm in southern Utah and the air quality is terrible. Visibility is less than 20 miles. The bad part is that there isn't a cloud within 100 miles.

Clear Skies
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#17 mountain monk

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Posted 06 September 2024 - 01:45 PM

Yep, smokey again this morning. I went out late last night with binoculars to a little local park to see an expanse of sky, dimension, as my wife likes to say. South was fair, the Milky Way was faded but visible with dust lans, M8 still naked eye, barely. But to the north the sky was…smeared?…if that makes sense. Ursa Major was very dim, Polaris OK. Still, I sat on a bench for nearly two hours just enjoying the dimension with my 8x30s and the 10x50s. Quiet and beautiful.

 

Thanks for the warning. Smoke has been my bete noire this summer.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack


Edited by mountain monk, 06 September 2024 - 01:50 PM.


#18 Echolight

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Posted 06 September 2024 - 02:00 PM

That's a drag.




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