12 replies to this topic

[Freezout]

I come here for one positive topic. I returned in France to my hometown (30K inhabitants) for the wedding of my brother last month, and discovered the city has a new policy (in fact since 2 years but I never noticed it) for lightning. At midnight (12PM), ALL public lights are turned off, including traffic lights, until 5h30.
It gives a very strange feeling, not be able to see your feet when walking, while being in a city center.

According to my brother who is in the city council, the reason was budget savings (mostly) and ecology. They refuted the safety argument by explaining that most of the thefts occurred in the afternoon, and that thieves don’t like full darkness.

 

It was unfortunately not possible to see the effect on the sky that night, as it was cloudy. Next time I am there and the sky is clear, I will try to assess the Bortle rating in the middle of the city.

[Kim2010]

Interesting!

[chrisecurtis]

Many towns and cities in the UK have similar policies, though it's very rare to turn everything off. My town turns off most streetlights at midnight, but keeps them on all night for the main, high-speed road and in parts of the town centre. The council does not control businesses or homes, so inevitably some have increased their own lighting: the industrial estate about a mile from me is very bright all night and we are plagued by ridiculously bright floodlights on houses that come on at random (triggered by dogs and cats usually) . 

 

On a good clear night, the Bortle from my back garden improves by a whole grade (from 5 to 4) at midnight. The Milky Way becomes more prominent,  fainter stars become more visible and it's lovely. Out in the countryside nearby the sky goes from Bortle 4 to 3, though the difference at a distance is not as dramatic as it is in the suburbs.

 

This is justified by cost and carbon saving, but there is a constant vocal minority locally arguing for much more lighting and to keep everything on all night.

[Redbetter]

I am glad to hear it.  I don't have any trouble seeing my feet/walking around in very dark sky, let alone somewhat light polluted.  

 

Unfortunately for me, in the US, the majority of folks think that if a light is shining directly into their face at night, that is good lighting and keeps them "safe"...while in reality the opposite is true.  I classify most urban/suburban lighting as "task lighting for criminals" or "anti-security lighting."  I have some security footage illustrating the task lighting for cat converter theft criminals/gang members/organized theft rings.  Dark is good, lit is bad.

 

All of my neighbors have "carriage lamps" from their homes lighting up the whole street (in addition to street lamps) every night from dusk til dawn.   I am the exception in that mine are only on when I need them to see something or to make the home/entrance more visible to others who we are expecting to visit.

[vsteblina]

 

All of my neighbors have "carriage lamps" from their homes lighting up the whole street (in addition to street lamps) every night from dusk til dawn.   I am the exception in that mine are only on when I need them to see something or to make the home/entrance more visible to others who we are expecting to visit.

Do you know the marginal electrical rate per kilo-watt hour and the wattage of the lights your neighbors use??

[RLK1]

The anti-crime lighting myths die hard, if at all. 

 

For instance, I'm reading today's article about crime trends in the nearby city of Santa Clarita and I find this:

 

"One particular area of concern during Friday’s meeting was the recent trend of fights reported after football games at In-N-Out Burger on Bouquet Canyon Road in Santa Clarita. Diez ensured the public safety committee that sheriff’s deputies would show a presence at the location on Friday nights for the remainder of the football season, adding that the Sheriff’s Department also communicated with representatives at Lowe’s, the home improvement store that shares the parking lot with In-N-Out, to keep parking lot lights on at night. The Lowe’s parking lot lights, he said, are normally off late at night when these fights were taking place."

 

https://signalscv.co...capt-diez-says/

 

Yup, the parking lot lights, in a city that's already is lit up like a christmas tree, is gonna deter a bunch of rowdy teenagers and young adults from getting into it after a game in which their team loses and that tailgate party gets out of hand. Geez...

Edited by RLK1, 23 September 2024 - 12:07 PM.

[Redbetter]

Do you know the marginal electrical rate per kilo-watt hour and the wattage of the lights your neighbors use??

PG&E is charging 48.6 cents/kWh as of last month for the normal Tier 2 rate.  I think they charge that much so that they can run constant TV ads telling us how they have decided to underground lines and start doing maintenance of the major transmission licenses.  (Nevermind that they still are very slow to underground lines for local projects I am familiar with.)   To lightly edit their TV message:  "We have determined that it will be cheaper in the long run not to kill our customers."  Who knew that keeping your customers alive and not being sued into bankruptcy by their survivors could be a viable business strategy?  They have done a lot of the killing-customers thing in recent decades, but have decided on a new path--despite being slow learners.

 

The neighborhood is set up with two carriage lights, and an enclosed down-facing porch light.  LED's for the carriage lights run about 9 W each anymore (formerly 13.5 W a decade or so before for the same lumens), but some folks are probably running the higher lumen lights that are about 13 W each.  However the porch CFL runs 26 W (these are the dumb 4-pin, ballast in the fixture set ups so changing to another type requires some electrical work.)  So when they are on consumption is likely about 44 W if they are using the standard lumen bulbs..  

 

Operating cost is 44/1000 * .486 = $0.0214 /hr.  If I assume 10 hr/night average and 365 nights per year that works out to $78/year, or $92/yr for the brighter bulbs. 

[PEterW]

I’d be grateful for any links to papers and evidenced data/trials about lighting/crime/traffic accidents as I am very keep to collect real evidence of what has actually happened when changes to lighting happen. Many London (UK) councils are producing Night Time Strategies to better help the night time economy and night workers who often get much less thought about their conditions than their daytime equivalents. You can imaging that there is a lot of “I don’t feel safe”, “we have antisocial behaviour” and subsequent requests for more lighting. Positive evidence of changes that actually made a positive difference would be help drive the right changes so that we all win in the long run.

Peter

[RLK1]

The anti-crime lighting myths die hard, if at all. 

 

For instance, I'm reading today's article about crime trends in the nearby city of Santa Clarita and I find this:

 

"One particular area of concern during Friday’s meeting was the recent trend of fights reported after football games at In-N-Out Burger on Bouquet Canyon Road in Santa Clarita. Diez ensured the public safety committee that sheriff’s deputies would show a presence at the location on Friday nights for the remainder of the football season, adding that the Sheriff’s Department also communicated with representatives at Lowe’s, the home improvement store that shares the parking lot with In-N-Out, to keep parking lot lights on at night. The Lowe’s parking lot lights, he said, are normally off late at night when these fights were taking place."

 

https://signalscv.co...capt-diez-says/

 

Yup, the parking lot lights, in a city that's already is lit up like a christmas tree, is gonna deter a bunch of rowdy teenagers and young adults from getting into it after a game in which their team loses and that tailgate party gets out of hand. Geez...

Lights didn't keep 'em away, now did they:

 

https://signalscv.co...ds-at-in-n-out/

[aatt]

Here in CT we have the highest power rates in the country or close to it. My bills are ridiculous. Does that stop people from nuisance lighting? Does not appear to be the case.

[Redbetter]

Here in CT we have the highest power rates in the country or close to it. My bills are ridiculous. Does that stop people from nuisance lighting? Does not appear to be the case.

Doubtful with respect to relative rates.  Look at last month's bill and post the rate in $/kWh.  We are running $0.486/kWh for PG&E in California, a huge jump from last year and has us running higher than Hawaii, which is completely ludicrous considering the relative sources of electric.  But PG&E is just a huge scam sanctioned by the state, with a public utility commission that has rubber stamped every single rate increase and PG&E's saturation advertising (to a captive audience) about what a great job they are doing in bending us over a barrel and having their way with us.  Locally there has been talk of setting up our own metro utility, and kicking PG&E to the curb, but I doubt it will go anywhere.

 

People don't have any appreciation of what entirely useless lighting is costing them.  People are incredibly stupid from what I have seen, they can't calculate stuff like this, even though it is quite easy.  These are the same folks that spend hundreds per month on cable, and hundreds for their cell phone plans.  They don't get the big picture.

[aatt]

CA is higher than CT?!? Sorry to hear that. My bills went from low hundred or close to it to $230 ish. Like CA the PURA board has said yes to every rate increase, some of which hinges on subsidizing a nuclear plant. Still, lighting is ubiquitous, ill designed and excessive whether it’s public, business or private residences. Me, I never have our door lighting on except for a visitor or to see what’s going on in the backyard, which is almost never. I certainly don’t leave them on and my power bills are awful.

[RLK1]

Doubtful with respect to relative rates.  Look at last month's bill and post the rate in $/kWh.  We are running $0.486/kWh for PG&E in California, a huge jump from last year and has us running higher than Hawaii, which is completely ludicrous considering the relative sources of electric.  But PG&E is just a huge scam sanctioned by the state, with a public utility commission that has rubber stamped every single rate increase and PG&E's saturation advertising (to a captive audience) about what a great job they are doing in bending us over a barrel and having their way with us.  Locally there has been talk of setting up our own metro utility, and kicking PG&E to the curb, but I doubt it will go anywhere.

 

People don't have any appreciation of what entirely useless lighting is costing them.  People are incredibly stupid from what I have seen, they can't calculate stuff like this, even though it is quite easy.  These are the same folks that spend hundreds per month on cable, and hundreds for their cell phone plans.  They don't get the big picture.

"...with a public utility commission that has rubber stamped every single rate increase..."

 

Ditto for SCE here in the counties in SoCal...

 

Part of the "official" explanation for the higher rates is people without solar are subsidizing those who do...