16 replies to this topic

[RichA]

https://petapixel.co...-the-night-sky/

 

 

 

[tcifani]

Sad, but until we're all willing to give up fast internet....

[Ron359]

Sad, but until we're all willing to give up fast internet....

Unless you've been sucked in my Starlink propaganda, we all certainly don't have to give up fast internet.  

 

I live in a rural area and get plenty fast enough internet to stream TV, phones, computers,  and anything else over one old fashioned  'physical cable.'   When TV went digital I got no over air, reception and went with a satellite provider.  But  I just dumped my satellite TV provider -although they certainly do not "pollute" the night sky with just a few satellites in Geosync orbit and provide good, clear HD video, but now its a redundant service from 23K miles out.  Heck I'm even able to post on the ancient tech of CNs forums with no delays.  

Edited by Ron359, 26 September 2024 - 04:05 PM.

[Forward Scatter]

Unless you've been sucked in my Starlink propaganda, we all certainly don't have to give up fast internet.  

 

I live in a rural area and get plenty fast enough internet to stream TV, phones, computers,  and anything else over one old fashioned  'physical cable.'   When TV went digital I got no over air, reception and went with a satellite provider.  But  I just dumped my satellite TV provider -although they certainly do not "pollute" the night sky with just a few satellites in Geosync orbit and provide good, clear HD video, but now its a redundant service from 23K miles out.  Heck I'm even able to post on the ancient tech of CNs forums with no delays.  

500 million websites and the best thing to look at still are cat videos.

[Melissa Throgmorton]

500 million websites and the best thing to look at still are cat videos.

I'm not even a cat fan, but this is true. LOL

[MNewberry]

Unless you've been sucked in my Starlink propaganda, we all certainly don't have to give up fast internet.  

 

I live in a rural area and get plenty fast enough internet to stream TV, phones, computers,  and anything else over one old fashioned  'physical cable.'   When TV went digital I got no over air, reception and went with a satellite provider.  But  I just dumped my satellite TV provider -although they certainly do not "pollute" the night sky with just a few satellites in Geosync orbit and provide good, clear HD video, but now its a redundant service from 23K miles out.  Heck I'm even able to post on the ancient tech of CNs forums with no delays.  

Why aren't people asking whether there is an alternative to providing high-speed internet without destroying the night sky for its aesthetic and cultural values, as well as optical and radio astronomy? Answer: Yes, it is possible.

[ayadai]

https://petapixel.co...-the-night-sky/

Thanks for the link; great photo!

 

There's an extensive discussion about Starblink in this locked thread (implicit warning, eh?). In the not too distant future, it looks like our skies will resemble those of Coruscant.

[mountain monk]

I would be delighted to give up Musk’s version of high speed internet connections.

 

Dark skies.

 

Jack

[ayadai]

I would be delighted to give up Musk’s version of high speed internet connections.

I think we all would. Thanks, Elon et al, for borking ~20% of my images. I can't imagine the suffering from astronomers in more populated areas if it's this bad in Micronesia.

 

Edited by ayadai, 24 November 2024 - 09:40 PM.

[Max Headroom]

I think we all would. Thanks, Elon et al, for borking ~20% of my images. I can't imagine the suffering from astronomers in more populated areas if it's this bad in Micronesia.

 

Dumbbell Nebula-45.00-LIGHT-0024.jpg

First, how do you know this is a Starlink sat?   Plenty of other LEO sats up there. 

Second, are you saying that commercial aircraft have never streaked any of your captures?

Third, every piece of capture and stacking software I have will get rid of aircraft and sat trails.  Pretty much been this way since the late 90's or so.  Long before Musk or Starlink came on the scene.

[ayadai]

First, how do you know this is a Starlink sat? 

Stellarium.
 

Second, are you saying that commercial aircraft have never streaked any of your captures?

Please note my location both in my profile and in the previous post. No aircraft of any sort fly over the observatory tower and there is very little air traffic in general; typically only a couple of flights per day.
 

Third, every piece of capture and stacking software I have will get rid of aircraft and sat trails.  Pretty much been this way since the late 90's or so.  Long before Musk or Starlink came on the scene.

Yes, of course, rejection stacking is old hat. That's not, however, the point. It's a matter of scale; the number of satellites launched per year have increased exponentially in only 5 short years; a trend that looks to continue to increase exponentially given the stated goals of multiple entities: Linky. Ignoring this important fact is rather disingenuous.

 

I find it disconcerting that anyone who owns a telescope would take on the role of apologist for those who are responsible for the abject and, without intervention,  soon-to-be near total destruction of the night sky.

Edited by ayadai, 25 November 2024 - 01:36 AM.

[aatt]

First, how do you know this is a Starlink sat? Plenty of other LEO sats up there.

Second, are you saying that commercial aircraft have never streaked any of your captures?

Third, every piece of capture and stacking software I have will get rid of aircraft and sat trails. Pretty much been this way since the late 90's or so. Long before Musk or Starlink came on the scene.

That sounds like sophistry. What we have now is going to be exponentially worse.Corporations manufactured junk in the past, does that mean we should just accept the fact that everyone is making junk these days?
These folk, not just Musk, are going to kill the proverbial goose that laid the golden egg. The Kessler effect is something that can’t be resolved if it happens and we are losing the sky to this nonsense on top of ground based ALAN. How this can happen unilaterally is pretty awful. There is an urgent need for regulation.
And how about all this rocket exhaust and the ozone layer? Or Earths magnetic field? The latter points should be critically examined for their potential impacts.
It’s the Wild West up there right now.

[Geoff40N]

I live in rural New Hampshire. For about a year I was online using a neighbor’s Starlink internet which he generously extended the range of and permitted my use. Then early last Spring, our local phone/internet provider finally ran a fiber optic cable down the road here (federal grant money at work) and I immediately joined up with the ISP that owns it. The fiber optic is just as fast as Starlink, and has less issues as well. At least that is my experience so far.

I am left scratching my head, wondering why in a society that dislikes monopolies as much as we do, how 1 rich man is allowed to seemingly do as he pleases over our heads. 

[BlueMoon]

 

Third, every piece of capture and stacking software I have will get rid of aircraft and sat trails.

As if that were the only hazard that these satellites present to humans. They are also interfering with detection of near space asteroids: https://www.space.co...from-satellites The article is from 2 years ago and the number of Starlink and other satellite constellations has only increased since then.

[ayadai]

I live in rural New Hampshire. For about a year I was online using a neighbor’s Starlink internet which he generously extended the range of and permitted my use. Then early last Spring, our local phone/internet provider finally ran a fiber optic cable down the road here (federal grant money at work) and I immediately joined up with the ISP that owns it. The fiber optic is just as fast as Starlink, and has less issues as well. At least that is my experience so far.

For folks in the US, one way to make starblink and its ilk less profitable, hence less prevalent, is to express your support for the American Broadband Initiative, a program similar to the very successful and popular NRECA in the early 40s and 50s. Every effort, no matter how small, helps to keep our skies just a bit clearer.

[vsteblina]

I live in rural New Hampshire. For about a year I was online using a neighbor’s Starlink internet which he generously extended the range of and permitted my use. Then early last Spring, our local phone/internet provider finally ran a fiber optic cable down the road here (federal grant money at work) and I immediately joined up with the ISP that owns it. The fiber optic is just as fast as Starlink, and has less issues as well. At least that is my experience so far..............................
 

 

 

For folks in the US, one way to make starblink and its ilk less profitable, hence less prevalent, is to express your support for the American Broadband Initiative, a program similar to the very successful and popular NRECA in the early 40s and 50s. Every effort, no matter how small, helps to keep our skies just a bit clearer.

I have had fiber at my "city" home since at the turn of the century.  I have  StarLink at my second home (10 miles, as the crow flies) for the past five years.

 

The county provides electricity, water, sewer, phone, cable TV service, and internet.  The fiber network was developed and laid out at the turn of the century.  The Governor of the state of Washington at the time, tried very hard to stop municipal fiber.  He succeeded and for over two decades constructing  municipal fiber in Washington state was cost prohibitive, except for counties that owned dams on the Columbia River.

 

Even in our county with 24,000 households that have fiber access, the cost was well over 125 MILLION dollars.  The entire cost was paid for by revenue from excess electricity sales to California, western Washington and Oregon.  There were no Federal or state dollars involved, it was all local money so easy to track and compute. 

 

The county has finally accepted some Federal funds to extend the network to the remaining households.  The cost estimate is another 150 Million dollars.  This article covers the issues and dollar amounts.

 

https://communitynet...ide-fiber-build

 

https://www.chelanpu...internet-access

 

The fiber program is not self financing at this point.  The 125 million dollars was forgiven as electrical sales paid for the fiber expansion. Basically electricity sales are being used for fiber access.

 

I pay $60/month for 100/100 fiber access. There is a connection fee currently.

 

StarLink is $120 a month for the same service, with an equipment cost of $349.

 

The Federal broadband program over the past 20 years has been a total disaster.  Over a decade ago, Chelan County applied for a 25 million dollar Federal grant and returned the money when they determined that the cost of the Federal grant was over 25 million dollars.  It was cheaper for the county to turn down the grant and they did!!!!

 

StarLink works for households and "light" internet usage.  For business and governmental services you really need a fiber connection.

 

Chelan County is considering a hybrid system where point to point internet service replaces fiber in low density areas.  There are other solutions, but they require governmental development which the reason the Governor Locke killed municipal fiber in Washington state over 25 years ago.  His quote was "there are things government should NOT do and internet access is one of them".  He was ok with government paying corporations for fiber access.  That was the key problem with all previous broadband "solutions" and why they did not work.

 

Not a fan of satellites but StarLink works.  With Russia, China, Britain, Amazon and our own DOD set to follow in Musks footsteps not sure if it matters if the US stops StarLink.

 

I suspect the only solution at this late date is to mitigate the impact of the satellites on the night sky. 

 

Sorry, but until another technology replaces StarLink we will continue to live with the curse of satellite trails and degrading of the night sky.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ayadai]

The Federal broadband program over the past 20 years has been a total disaster.  Over a decade ago, Chelan County applied for a 25 million dollar Federal grant and returned the money when they determined that the cost of the Federal grant was over 25 million dollars.  It was cheaper for the county to turn down the grant and they did!!!!

I suppose this is a YMMV situation. Here, Federal grants through the broadband policy initiative are allowing for higher redundancy, lower latency and affordable, reliable broadband at far lower prices. A few folks "rebel against the man" by using starblink, but it's largely posturing.

 

The fundamental issue I see in your story is the contrast between the implementation of NRECA VS current programs in a broad sense, but more pointedly, in certain areas. Public acceptance of community infrastructure and inter-governmental cooperation has been replaced by politicization and posturing. A sad state of affairs, indeed. I'm just happy that here, a more pragmatic paradigm holds sway.

Edited by ayadai, 01 December 2024 - 11:15 PM.