34 replies to this topic

[Jim Waters]

I am looking into getting a harmonic drive mount early next year.  I currently own a Losmandy G11G and have used friends G11T, EQ6-R Pro and CQ350 Pro off and on.  These mounts are getting too heavy for my back.  A harmonic drive mount would meet my needs.  The max weight of my optical setup is 20 pounds.  I use NINA for image acquisition along with PHD2.  I am looking into spending no more than $3,000 for the mount.  This includes tripod and other accessories.  Mounts I have looked at include.

 

ZWO AM5N
This mount looks attractive and the AM5 is popular with a good track record.  The Android / Apple SkyAtlas app has received somewhat negative reviews on Google Play and is required to run the mount.  These range from WiFi connection problems, being feature incomplete, lockups …etc.  From the reviews it feels like the app is immature.  This may improve over time.  A joy-stick is provided with the mount.  The mount has built-in cable management and a passthrough USB C port.  I have concerns about the 3 amp max rating on the saddle.  IMO this is too low and the supplied USB hubs aren’t powered.  The saddle looks a little small compared to Losmandy equipment.  The tripod includes a ‘rock bag’.  Detailed specifications on the mount are available on-line and PEC plots are included with each mount.  ZWO states “each mount is tested to ensure a 10 arc-seconds PEC”.  The AM5N has recently been released and hasn’t established a good usage track record.  Support on the ZWO forum feels average.

 

Sky-Watcher 150i
This mount is still on pre-order and has no track record.  This mount has a RA mechanical clutch in addition to a RA “power off braking function”.  IMO the placement of the RA clutch knob is poor.  Depending on the imaging setup access to the knob is limited.  I am also concerned about having a RA mechanical clutch w/o a counter weight.  I am not willing to risk 4 to 5K worth of imaging equipment on a mechanical clutch slipping.  The mount has built-in cable management.  The mount does include the standard Sky-Watcher hand controller.  The tripod looks inadequate and there’s no ‘rock bag’.  Sky-Watcher is not known for detailed specifications on their products even when asked.  Sky-Watcher service and support is good based on my past experience.

 

Pegasus Astro NYX-88
This mount is still on pre-order and has no track record.  A hand controller is supplied.  The mechanical design looks OK.  You can upgrade the saddle to the ‘Saddle Powerbox’ for $440.  The NYX-101 has had reported 12 volt power related and other issues as posted on CN, AstroBin and other sites.  IMO support on the Pegasus Forum site feels poor at best.  I have had issues with direct email support on their products too.

 

HEM44 EQ SWG Hybrid
I am OK with a hybrid mount as long as the DEC has minimal backlash.  Its belt driven so it should be better than the multi gear design of my G11G.  On paper the specifications look OK.  A hand controller is provided.  The saddle has a USB2 passthrough port which feels inadequate.  Most CMOS camera’s are USB3 now.  The saddle isn’t a dual Losmandy / Vixen design.  You need to make mechanical changes to switch designs.  It looks like a ‘rock-bag’ isn’t provided with the tripod.  I have seen improvised ones on YouTube.  You can also order a CEM40 tripod for a few dollars more.

 

I have eliminated Pegasus Astro products.  I am not sure about the Sky-Watcher 150i.  The ZWO AM5N still looks attractive but I have concerns about the SkyAtlas app and being further locked into the ZWO environment.  An astro-buddy ordered the iOptron HEM44 recently.  I will wait for his review.

 

I would like users of the AM5N and HEM44 EQ to provide their opinions on these mounts.  Especially RA guiding performance.  What stuff have I overlooked?

 

What other mounts should I be looking at?  Thx

Edited by Jim Waters, 05 October 2024 - 08:25 PM.

[sbsbbugsy]

I use an AM5 with my Askar 185 APO. Normally I get about 0.4 on my guiding, but here is a pic when it was exceptional.

 

[dmilone]

Rainbow Astro RST135E
I’m afraid I don’t know much about this mount. I’ve only heard about it. It looks nice. But I think a bit more than the $3k budget.

[Jim Waters]

I use an AM5 with my Askar 185 APO. Normally I get about 0.4 on my guiding, but here is a pic when it was exceptional.

 

I don't have permissions to review the attached image error.

[crpainter]

Jim, great summary of the current situation.  I’m in a similar situation with an aging Orion Atlas EQ-G, and my own aging body. With specific regard to AM5N I understand from a posting by ZWO in their support forum that the through mount power can handle 5 amps, in spite of it being labeled as 3 amps.

 

My sense is the current offerings are close but don’t quite tick all the necessary boxes yet.  I would like to see Skywatcher come out with a pier extension so I can repurpose my existing tripod (perhaps early next year?). I’d also like to see better support for separate home and park positions: I need to make the saddle horizontal (i.e. pointing due east or west) so I can more safely remove my 25lb OTA at the end of each night.

 

we are fortunate that there’s so much innovation and competition in the mount space at the moment, but I need a little more resolution on these issues before I’m ready to pull the trigger. 

[Blue_Orca]

My 2 cents: I got tired of chasing seeing by guiding at 0.5s interval, so I went with the RST-135E. 

 

On the RST-135 without encoder, my copy of the mount would occasionally jerk and I had to throw away some subs.  Usually it's about 1 in 20 when my NB subs were 10 min long.  After upgrading to the RST-135E, mount just disappears to the background, and touch wood, till now, all my 10 min subs turn out to be keepers.

[lviatour]

Jim, great summary of the current situation.  I’m in a similar situation with an aging Orion Atlas EQ-G, and my own aging body. With specific regard to AM5N I understand from a posting by ZWO in their support forum that the through mount power can handle 5 amps, in spite of it being labeled as 3 amps.

 

My sense is the current offerings are close but don’t quite tick all the necessary boxes yet.  I would like to see Skywatcher come out with a pier extension so I can repurpose my existing tripod (perhaps early next year?). I’d also like to see better support for separate home and park positions: I need to make the saddle horizontal (i.e. pointing due east or west) so I can more safely remove my 25lb OTA at the end of each night.

 

we are fortunate that there’s so much innovation and competition in the mount space at the moment, but I need a little more resolution on these issues before I’m ready to pull the trigger. 

I've ordered a Wave 150I with an adapter for the AZ-EQ6 tripod and a stainless steel counterweight.
It has arrived at my dealer and should be delivered within a week.

Why I chose the 150i: Primarily for its maximum payload capacity, it's also the only one with declination and right ascension clutches, allowing for balancing on both axes. The internal cable management, combined with a mini PC on the instrument, eliminates any moving cables. It also offers the possibility of mounting on a heavy tripod like my AZ-EQ6. And above all, it's 3 times lighter than the AZ-EQ6 for a higher payload capacity.

 

We'll soon see how the guided tracking performs, which I hope will be as good as on my AZ-EQ6

Edited by lviatour, 06 October 2024 - 03:24 AM.

[Cliff Hipsher]

I have an AM3.  It has been rock solid from the jump.  Most of the "issues" with this mount are user induced because they are not conversant with networking and electrical theory.

 

I  use an ASI Air Plus for control. I do not power the mount from Air and vice versa (Because you can't from an AM3 but I learned my lesson with my iOptron GEM45).  I use a tightly regulated 12VDC 10 Amp rechargeable power station with a 320 Watt Hour (WH) capacity. I use a Y splitter and run separate power cables to the mount and Air.

 

I run Air in Station Mode.  I used  an app called WiFi Meter (Its on Google Play Store)  to run a signal strength survey of my setup site.  Because the signal strength is below 80%  I got a TP LInk Model RE505X AX1500 Wi-Fi Range Extender (About $90.00 at Home Depot). 

 

I run three rigs this way, the AM3 carries an AT80ED, a Gem45 carries an AT130EDT, and an LXD75 carries a Mead 2080 SCT.  I have zero power and WiFi issues.

[Jim Waters]

I have an AM3.  It has been rock solid from the jump.  Most of the "issues" with this mount are user induced because they are not conversant with networking and electrical theory.

 

I  use an ASI Air Plus for control. I do not power the mount from Air and vice versa (Because you can't from an AM3 but I learned my lesson with my iOptron GEM45).  I use a tightly regulated 12VDC 10 Amp rechargeable power station with a 320 Watt Hour (WH) capacity. I use a Y splitter and run separate power cables to the mount and Air.

 

I run Air in Station Mode.  I used  an app called WiFi Meter (Its on Google Play Store)  to run a signal strength survey of my setup site.  Because the signal strength is below 80%  I got a TP LInk Model RE505X AX1500 Wi-Fi Range Extender (About $90.00 at Home Depot). 

 

I run three rigs this way, the AM3 carries an AT80ED, a Gem45 carries an AT130EDT, and an LXD75 carries a Mead 2080 SCT.  I have zero power and WiFi issues.

 

I've ordered a Wave 150I with an adapter for the AZ-EQ6 tripod and a stainless steel counterweight.
It has arrived at my dealer and should be delivered within a week.

Why I chose the 150i: Primarily for its maximum payload capacity, it's also the only one with declination and right ascension clutches, allowing for balancing on both axes. The internal cable management, combined with a mini PC on the instrument, eliminates any moving cables. It also offers the possibility of mounting on a heavy tripod like my AZ-EQ6. And above all, it's 3 times lighter than the AZ-EQ6 for a higher payload capacity.

 

We'll soon see how the guided tracking performs, which I hope will be as good as on my AZ-EQ6

lviatour - I would be interested to see a detailed report.

[lviatour]

 

I  use an ASI Air Plus for control. I do not power the mount from Air and vice versa (Because you can't from an AM3 but I learned my lesson with my iOptron GEM45).  I use a tightly regulated 12VDC 10 Amp rechargeable power station with a 320 Watt Hour (WH) capacity. I use a Y splitter and run separate power cables to the mount and Air.

 

 

The advantage of the Wave 150i is that there is a 12V input for the mount and another 12V 20A input with two outputs on the instrument side, so you can power the ASIAir and its accessories without any moving cables.

[sbsbbugsy]

I don't have permissions to review the attached image error.

It should be fixed now.

[Celerondon]

I use an AM5 with my Askar 185 APO. Normally I get about 0.4 on my guiding, but here is a pic when it was exceptional.

 

My AM5 generally hovers between 0.3 and 0.6 but those numbers are indeed stellar.  Do you remember if your polar alignment or atmospheric conditions were similarly exceptional that evening?

 

Don

[EdFromNH]

I have an AM5 (gen 1) and it works great for me with 20lbs of payload.  It doesn't technically need a counterweight, but I do use one just for piece of mind (even though I have convinced myself it's not necessary).  I use the TC40, PE200, and throw a 10lb gym weight in the rock bag under my battery.  With an OAG and 550mm FL I usually guide at 0.5 or sometimes better (last night for a while I was getting 0.3 and I figured it was just my eyes playing tricks on me).  1s guide exposures.

 

You mentioned concerns about the app, but if you are using a minipc with Nina you'll never have to touch the app.  I've only occasionally used the app in a pinch when I wanted to do some quick solar or (gasp) visual and didn't want to hook up the PC.  But when I want to use NINA or Firecapture, I just connect via USB and ASCOM and no app needed.

 

Cheers,
Ed

[KJR]

I'm in the market to upgrade my AVX mount. I use a C8 SCT. I currently image at 1442mm with a Starizona reducer/corrector, Celetron OAG, ASI174mm mini guide camera and ASI071MC Pro main camera with a weight around 19lbs. I'm looking for improvement in guiding. Hoping to get the average guiding error down to 0.5" to 0.7" consistently. My AVX gets around 1", sometimes a little under 1" and sometimes a little over 1". My record RMS is 0.68" for a two hour session.

 

I'm also concerned that some strain wave users having to report they are using short guide exposures some as low as 0.5". If I get that low PHD2 starts to loose the guide star. 1" is my lower limit. I know that can depend on seeing but I don't live in one place and within a couple of weeks I can move from a Bortle 4/5 to a Bortle 1/2. I'm in a Bortle 2 right now and my AVX is imaging a section of the Western Veil and guiding was doing pretty good in-between 0.65" and 0.85" then suddenly the DEC takes a journey past 5" and comes down and settle to 0.32" then its fine.

 

Deep Space Astro did a review on the AM5N with his C8 Edge HD and reported guide number around 0.5" to 0.6" even at 2032mm focal length. Sounds great since I have a C8. I'd have to purchase the PE200 pier for its ability to mount on the AVX tripod. No AM5N in stock in US at online retailers.

 

Losmandy is out of my price range. A GM811 with LW tripod is around $3500 by the time you pay shipping and tax and then I need a second 11lb counterweight. I'm also wondering about the performance of the motor gears to worm gear vs a belt design to worm gear.

 

My other option is iOptron CEM40/GEM45 since they are on sale now until the end of October 2024. I like the NUC versions for their wire management and a platform to mount a minipc which moves the weight from the rear to near the front.

 

The iOptron HAE29 and HEM27 have similar payload of 29lb, close to AM5N. Not sure how well they guide with a C8 SCT focal lengths. I can't find any reviews other than ones with short focal length OTAs.

 

The HEM44 is $300 less than the HAE43 payloads around 44lbs. Again no reviews of guiding performance with an SCT. A HEM or HAE will require a pier to mount on my AVX tripod using a M6 tap and die or I could purchase the iOptron LiteRoc tripod. 

 

If given the choice between a strain wave or GEM or CEM it would have to depend on the guiding performance. The one with the better guiding wins.

 

KJR

[sbsbbugsy]

My AM5 generally hovers between 0.3 and 0.6 but those numbers are indeed stellar.  Do you remember if your polar alignment or atmospheric conditions were similarly exceptional that evening?

 

Don

I was at a dark site and I took a little more time to get my PA as close as possible.

[honyi]

If you are already looking at the HEM44, why not consider the HAE43 instead? seems to be more popular, and it is dual harmonic drive.

[Cliff Hipsher]

The advantage of the Wave 150i is that there is a 12V input for the mount and another 12V 20A input with two outputs on the instrument side, so you can power the ASIAir and its accessories without any moving cables.

Looks like SW was paying attention.  Good for them.  I might snag one to replace my ancient LXD75...

[dswtan]

Obvious options missing are the newer Chinese entries, WarpAstron and Juwei.

 

I have a WD20 since August. Initially I was using it in a non-ideal location to reach as far south as my patio would go, so guiding through atmospheric murk and only saw ~0.7-8" total RMS, pretty much what I get on my previous GEM45s (when they were behaving). But I just switched the location more favorably and now I'm pleased to see my first ~0.4-5" capturing M33 for the Goofi's Challenge on a 5" refractor.

 

The WD20 is very polished hardware. The software (OnStep based, like others) is not so great, but since I am driving it "headless" with NINA, I don't interact with it after initial set-up. The hand controller is also less polished than the mount itself, but again, I don't use it since initial setup and have now disconnected it.

 

Past experience: I'm fairly iOptron-loyal (also Celestron and Losmandy experience), but they have quirks (software, connectors, parking) and my GEM45s really went off the rails after a year or so (still working on repair options). CEM70 is mostly solid so far, but only it's first year. CEM25 is just for solar, so rarely used. I therefore considered the iOptron SW options but they were just not compelling compared to the more interesting WarpAstrons. iOptron also tend to release too many (confusing) models and hardware revisions -- v2 iOptrons could be very interesting, but no sign yet, probably for another year or two.

 

Agena Astro becoming a dealer was the final (good) straw for me to get the WD20. So far, I'm recommending it, but I admit it's early days and feels a bit pioneering yet. But aren't ALL the SW options that, except Rainbow? Maybe ZWO has the numbers at least.

 

Crop of M33 mosaic initial L stack, as previously shared in the progress thread:

 

 

[Pictor]

I'll add another vote for the RST-135E.  The only drawbacks I see with it is the lack of brake and high price.  I'm looking to add to my RST-135E with something that has a brake and could handle higher payloads but I haven't found that mount yet that also has a good support track record and isn't locked into a walled garden. 

[Haggish59]

hi,
I'm wondering if I should go for the AM5n or Wave 150i. I have an AM5 today. but I’m like the better cable management with internal cabling. I see now that the AM5n only has a 3a output on the saddle, while the old AM5 had a 5a output down on the mount. Then there was only a need for a 6a power supply for my entire setup. (asiair+,asi6200, asi178, EAF, EFW and 2x dewh.) That means that with the AM5n I then have to use 2 power supplies.
So it then points towards the wave 150i. Yes I need 2 power supplies on that to but in an other way. After reading about several cases of homing causing the mount to spin out of control, I am very skeptical since I use plan mode and then go to sleep. And when I wake up I want to trust that the mount has parked safely.

[Jim Waters]

I have significant concerns about the 150i.  First of all Sky-Watcher is late to the party.  Why did it take them so long?  They have published limited details about the mount unlike ZWO.  Lastly I have major concerns about their RA clutch pin design.  See the link below. 

 

https://www.cloudyni...-series-mounts/

 

I have concerns about the 3 amp limit on the AM5N saddle too.  I will need 4 amps minimum.  Five will be better.  Their hub on the saddle also isn't a powered hub.  

Edited by Jim Waters, 13 October 2024 - 03:30 PM.

[Haggish59]

The “clutch” is not a clutch, it’s a pin lock so I’m not so concerned about that, but I see no reason for balance the RA. ✨

I have significant concerns about the 150i.  First of all Sky-Watcher is late to the party.  Why did it take them so long?  They have published limited details about the mount unlike ZWO.  Lastly I have major concerns about their RA clutch design.  See the link below. 

 

https://www.cloudyni...-series-mounts/

 

I have concerns about the 3 amp limit on the AM5N saddle too.  I will need 4 amps minimum.  Five will be better.  Their hub on the saddle also isn't a powered hub.  

[Jim Waters]

You are right.  Thanks for jumping in.

[Recorte]

Why not considered the HAE43C or HAE29C? Strain wave  on both axes, and an updated version respect to previous HAE models.

[Jim Waters]

I am looking at them now.