28 replies to this topic

[lattitrail]

Seems like everyone is imaging with them these days so I've been toying with the idea of buying a Chinese made strain wave for lightweight refractor work. I would put it on a homemade pier and use a pc to control it remotely from the comfort of my climate controlled and insect-free house. I'm disabled and dependent on a wheelchair to move around, so I'm not interested in making multiple trips outside to babysit the mount throughout the night, nor am I interested in spending all night outside feeding the mosquitos (fortunately they're no longer a problem at my location until next spring). I'm most familiar with Cartes du Ciel and NINA, but I can learn new things if needed. 

 

I like the following three options: 

 

 

ZWO AM5N seems like a no brainer. I think they've proven themselves as a reliable option.

 

WarpAstron WD20 looks appealing to me for a couple of reasons. Primarily it can be used in very cold temperatures which my location frequently sees in winter. Also this mount has encoders on both axes which seems useful for remote control. I don't necessarily need the payload capacity though and I'm completely unfamiliar with OnStep control software. 

 

Emcan 31pro has a lot of people saying good things about them, has at least one U.S. distributer who currently has it in stock, but also uses OnStep meaning I must learn new things.

 

 

I would love to hear feedback on these or any other mount others have had experiences using. Thanks in advance. 

 

 

[dcweaver]

WarpAstron WD20 looks appealing to me for a couple of reasons. Primarily it can be used in very cold temperatures which my location frequently sees in winter. Also this mount has encoders on both axes which seems useful for remote control. I don't necessarily need the payload capacity though and I'm completely unfamiliar with OnStep control software. 

The WD-20 is a great choice, but don't misinterpret the function of the encoders. They do not assist pointing or eliminate PE like those used on an AstroPhysics Mach2. The WD-20 encoders are there to drive the DC servo motors, which require closed loop feedback to operate correctly. It's similar to the way Celestron uses encoders on their mounts, which also use DC servo motors instead of steppers. So the use of encoders does not offer anything special from that perspective, but they do have some unique benefits when coupled with the WD-20's shaft drive and state of the art motor drive firmware. The shaft drive also eliminates some higher frequency PE from the drivetrain (belts, pulleys, spur gears), even though it cannot eliminate the large PE from the strain wave gear. That still requires fast guiding, which is enhanced by the responsiveness and accuracy of the servo motors and shaft drive.

Edited by dcweaver, 14 October 2024 - 02:10 PM.

[Celerondon]

My vote is for the AM5N because of the proven performance of the technology and its close integration with an established control system. The three ZWO mounts have been remarkably popular. By now, the number of AM5/AM5N units in service could dwarf that of all other brands and models combined.

What will be your operational temperature extremes? This could be a factor against the AM5N if you plan to use your system beyond the temperature range that ZWO specifies. Like that WD20, there are other mounts that seem more suited to extreme weather conditions.

Don

[lattitrail]

What will be your operational temperature extremes? 

Most of the time my winter weather stays mild enough to use the AM5N but sometimes I see single digit or below zero Fahrenheit temperatures. Unless it's clear, I won't be imaging but sometimes conditions are perfect on those extremely cold nights and I want to torture my equipment while I stay.warm and cozy indoors.  

[gna72]

ZWO is a Chinese brand, do you mean other Chinese brands beside ZWO?

Why not? I have a UMi17 and I am happy with that. I use it with a RC6 and a a 70/420 refractor guiding with 0.5"-0.8" RMSE.

[Tapio]

Are there any SWG mount that is not Chinese?

[psandelle]

Are there any SWG mount that is not Chinese?

Rainbow Astro (which really set the table for all the others around these days) is Korean and the Nyx by Pegasus Astro is Greek.

Paul
 

Edited by psandelle, 15 October 2024 - 09:39 AM.

[scanner97]

Cuiv (Lazy Geek) has done vids on those 3 mounts and others.  (Harder to find reviews of the non-ZWO options, but there are some.

 

Most of them have similar weights and payloads.  Prices are also fairly similar unless you buy something off AliExpress, which raises the question of where you want to get yout support/service.  If you care about a specific dealer, then that might make a difference, since Zwo is the only brand sold by nearly everyone.

 

All of them will guide at sub-arc second.  There are a lot of posts around exactly what someone is getting on their personal mount... maybe 0.4 to 0.5 on this mount on a good night and 0.6 to 0.7 on that mount.  There is enough variability in parts, manufacturing, guide gear/skills, and seeing, that I don't think it's a fruitful discussion.  Just consider the performance pretty comparable.

 

Other factors that might affect your decision include specific features that matter to you.  Many brands use steppers, but a few (like WA) have servos.  Most are belted while a few models are direct drive.Newer models tend to have power-out brakes - at least on the RA.  Some models have home capability or anti-collision.  All of them are quiet, but some are nearly silent.  Where they run power and USB in and out is also individual to the mount.

 

Anyway, of your three, the AM5 certainly has a huge installed base but might also be the hardest to get your hands on at the moment.  More units are inbound from China after their National Day holiday week, and should be here the end of this week or next.  If you want one, better get it on order.  The WD20 has a smaller base, but there are still quite a few users here on CN to provide assistance.  The EmCan has the smallest base.  (It also looks like it has the nicest, and most expensive tripod of the lot if that's important!)

 

Any of them would be a great mount.  Comes down to what details are most important to you.  And I forgot to mention, I believe any of them should work fine with NINA if that's your most comfortable control solution.  Check Cuiv's vids for more details.  

 

Good luck!!

Edited by scanner97, 15 October 2024 - 10:07 AM.

[BrentKnight]

You say small refractor, but not how small.  The WD-17 has a larger payload capacity than the original AM5, so it's probably more than capable for what you intend - it's also a good bit lighter and cheaper than the WD-20.  I use mine with an Askar80PHQ (a rather heavy 80mm).  I usually keep my subs at 30 seconds (I do EAA) and so far I've not even needed to guide.

 

OnStep is different, but it works well.  And once you get past the initial setup, other software will control the mount (works very well in NINA and Sharpcap).

[Digitaliz.se]

I have Juwei-17 and am happy with the performance. It can carry my Rc8 fully equiped with no problem, but usually it carries my TSOptics800.
It's the best bang for the buck, but theres always a but..

 

/Stefan

[lattitrail]

I have a UMi17 and I am happy with that. I use it with a RC6 and a a 70/420 refractor guiding with 0.5"-0.8" RMSE.

Thanks! I hadn't looked into these before, they certainly seem interesting at a cheaper price point than WarpAstron.

[lattitrail]

You say small refractor, but not how small. 

Nothing larger than 15-20 lbs. I have other larger mounts for my larger scopes. That said, I don't know how well a strain wave performs at maximum weight capacity, so I've been eyeing the mounts in the neighborhood of 30 lbs capacity. 

[lattitrail]

Cuiv (Lazy Geek) has done vids on those 3 mounts and others.  (Harder to find reviews of the non-ZWO options, but there are some.

 

Most of them have similar weights and payloads.  Prices are also fairly similar unless you buy something off AliExpress, which raises the question of where you want to get yout support/service.  If you care about a specific dealer, then that might make a difference, since Zwo is the only brand sold by nearly everyone.

 

All of them will guide at sub-arc second.  There are a lot of posts around exactly what someone is getting on their personal mount... maybe 0.4 to 0.5 on this mount on a good night and 0.6 to 0.7 on that mount.  There is enough variability in parts, manufacturing, guide gear/skills, and seeing, that I don't think it's a fruitful discussion.  Just consider the performance pretty comparable.

 

Other factors that might affect your decision include specific features that matter to you.  Many brands use steppers, but a few (like WA) have servos.  Most are belted while a few models are direct drive.Newer models tend to have power-out brakes - at least on the RA.  Some models have home capability or anti-collision.  All of them are quiet, but some are nearly silent.  Where they run power and USB in and out is also individual to the mount.

 

Anyway, of your three, the AM5 certainly has a huge installed base but might also be the hardest to get your hands on at the moment.  More units are inbound from China after their National Day holiday week, and should be here the end of this week or next.  If you want one, better get it on order.  The WD20 has a smaller base, but there are still quite a few users here on CN to provide assistance.  The EmCan has the smallest base.  (It also looks like it has the nicest, and most expensive tripod of the lot if that's important!)

 

Any of them would be a great mount.  Comes down to what details are most important to you.  And I forgot to mention, I believe any of them should work fine with NINA if that's your most comfortable control solution.  Check Cuiv's vids for more details.  

 

Good luck!!

I've watched all of Cuiv's videos but I'm still having a hard time deciding!

[lattitrail]

I have Juwei-17 and am happy with the performance. It can carry my Rc8 fully equiped with no problem, but usually it carries my TSOptics800.
It's the best bang for the buck, but theres always a but..

 

/Stefan

Thanks! I haven't heard of Juwei before, I'll look into them!

[BrentKnight]

Nothing larger than 15-20 lbs. I have other larger mounts for my larger scopes. That said, I don't know how well a strain wave performs at maximum weight capacity, so I've been eyeing the mounts in the neighborhood of 30 lbs capacity. 

They can handle up to their rated capacity.  Over that they recommend a counterweight to offset balance issues - but still not an issue for payload weight.

 

[Skywatchr]

Rainbow Astro (which really set the table for all the others around these days) is Korean and the Nyx by Pegasus Astro is Greek.

Paul
 

But where do they source their SWG units from?  I'm sure they don't all make their own.

[scanner97]

But where do they source their SWG units from?  I'm sure they don't all make their own.

Is the origin of a mount defined by where the company is registered, or owned?  Where the product is designed, or assembled?  You could define it as just where the gearbox is manufactured.  But what if the gearbox itself requires multiple components manufactured in multiple countries?  And are we including the motor in that or maybe just the gears?  I'm not suggesting a debate on this is useful or desirable, only that product origin is a messy question these days.  

 

A quick search suggests there are a lot of SWG manufacturers.  It would be interesting to know how many are currently supplying the mount market, which is pretty small compared to most industrial markets.  I would not be surprised if most of the gear manufacturing were being done in China, but I don't know that.  It would also be interesting to know if the non-Chinese-owned companies were all buying their gears from the same companies in China, or even doing their assembly in China.

Edited by scanner97, 16 October 2024 - 09:23 AM.

[psandelle]

But where do they source their SWG units from?  I'm sure they don't all make their own.

The Koreans do for sure.

Paul

[Skywatchr]

The Koreans do for sure.

Paul

"The Koreans" by itself doesn't mean anything.  Although it is possible the Korean "brand" you mentioned does source their SWG units from "The Koreans".

 

Not that it really matters in the end.  If the mount works, performs well, and lasts, enjoy it.

[psandelle]

"The Koreans" by itself doesn't mean anything.  Although it is possible the Korean "brand" you mentioned does source their SWG units from "The Koreans".

 

Not that it really matters in the end.  If the mount works, performs well, and lasts, enjoy it.

People were saying they didn’t know of any non-Chinese SWG mounts. I pointed out, among others, that Rainbow Astro (Korean) were one of the very first (and, really, the brand that kicked this whole thing off with their success). Then you asked where they sourced their SWGs from, and I pointed out they were Korean made (as the implication of your question was that they might be Chinese). If you wish to know more, Rainbow Astro explains it (I think on their page, but I had one of the first 150s, which predated the 135s, of which I’ve had two, so it’s been a while since I checked; so it may be in conversation). Or you could contact the head guy, who is very forthcoming. I believe him and another guy originally started a company to make SWG mounts, but they split and each started a separate company, both using Korean-made SWGs for their mounts.

 

Paul

[dnrmilspec]

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Please remember that CN is a global site that welcomes and values members from around the world.  Please be mindful of our fellow members.

[AstroAlexN]

I've used a number of mounts over the years from Chinese GEM's, American GEM's, Japanese GEM's, Italian GEM's and equatorial forks... I'll be honest... The BEST all rounder is my Emcan Astro EM31 Pro... 

The fact is, I still own a G11 Gemini, an Avalon Instrument M-Zero as well as the Emcan EM31 Pro... 

I've had the G11 forever, and I love its no-frills approach... Its built for a purpose, and it performs that duty incredibly well... However, with a damaged, and aging spine, a 45KG+ GEM with tripod and counterweights is not really suitable for me to move about anymore. 

I bought the Avalon Instruments M-Zero to run my Askar 65PHQ, as its a small, INCREDIBLY high quality mount, doesn't need to do meridian flips, and guide accuracy is incredible... However, it's quite payload limited, with a maxium of 8kg in single scope configuration, or 13kg with two scopes mounted to the declination arm... 

When I wanted a bigger scope than the 65PHQ, I could have used the G11 for it, however, it's back to a 10+kg Scope/camera setup, + 45kg of mount, + 5kg of 'things' that I have to set up to run the mount... So I bought the Emcan Astro EM31 Pro, and, despite wasting 1 night fighting with OnStep while I learned how it works and what it expects, I've got NOTHING but good things to say about it.

It guides and performs better than the G11 with the 120APO on it, it guides on par or slightly better than the Avalon Instruments M-Zero with the 65PHQ on it... So, as sad as it is to say, nowdays, no matter what right I'm running, the EM31 Pro is the mount of choice, as it can do anything the other two can do, only, better... and its considerably lighter than G11, marginally lighter than the M-Zero... 

Whats my opinion on Chinese strain wave mounts?
It's up there with the very best mounts I've ever owned, and definitly good enough for me to shelve two other mounts that cost nearly double the price a piece... 

So now My G11 is going to get permanently mounted with a 10" RC, the Emcan will run the 65PHQ or 120APO when I have them outside, and the M-Zero is for sale, but if it doesn't sell, I'll get a 135mm f/2 and a full frame camera and run it unguided, without a computer attached at all...  

See my thoughts on the EM31 Pro here : https://www.cloudyni...em31-pro-mount/

Edited by AstroAlexN, 16 October 2024 - 10:52 PM.

[whwang]

Are there any SWG mount that is not Chinese?

 

Rainbow Astro (which really set the table for all the others around these days) is Korean and the Nyx by Pegasus Astro is Greek.

Paul
 

 

There is als Hobym, whose mounts are named Crux.

 

The two Korean (Hobym and Rainbow Astro) are the pioneers in making harmonic drive mounts.  Then followed by many Chinese brands in recent years with strain wave gears.  

 

I have one of the Rainbow Astro mounts (RST-135E), had used two (RST-135 and RST-135E) for mobile imaging in a different hemisphere, and had used  Hobym's mini Crux mount for eclipse imaging.  I also owned two Chinese mounts in the past (iOptron CEM), but not the strain wave ones.  Generally speaking, the Korean mounts are rock solid and reliable.  Much less so for the Chinese mounts.  On the other hand, the Chinese mounts offer good cost/performance, and they are fast in adapting new ideas.  So I think both groups deserve credits and serve their purposes well.  For beginners with limited budget, I think the Chinese mounts are good choices, not necessarily the strain wave ones, the other series too.  Once you are more experienced, know very well about what you want for the next many years, and have more budget, the Korean ones can be your long term keeper.

[Skywatchr]

People were saying they didn’t know of any non-Chinese SWG mounts. I pointed out, among others, that Rainbow Astro (Korean) were one of the very first (and, really, the brand that kicked this whole thing off with their success). Then you asked where they sourced their SWGs from, and I pointed out they were Korean made (as the implication of your question was that they might be Chinese). If you wish to know more, Rainbow Astro explains it (I think on their page, but I had one of the first 150s, which predated the 135s, of which I’ve had two, so it’s been a while since I checked; so it may be in conversation). Or you could contact the head guy, who is very forthcoming. I believe him and another guy originally started a company to make SWG mounts, but they split and each started a separate company, both using Korean-made SWGs for their mounts.

 

Paul

I "implied" nothing.  I was simply asking a question, to which seems to have offended you.  That was not my intention.  You blurted out two Korean makers with no details.  And we still do not know what specific manufacturer makes the SWG units for them.  Nor do we know where they source their materials and parts to make the SWG units out of.  I am not "bashing" Korean made anything.  In fact over the years I have used many "Made in Korea" items and electronic components with complete success.

[lattitrail]

For clarification, when I said Chinese made strain wave mounts I meant mounts manufactured by Chinese companies. My wife drives a Toyota that was built in Kentucky but Toyota is still a Japanese company even though they source parts and build cars all over the world. Perhaps using this language was a mistake on my part as it seems to have sidetracked the conversation.

 

Thanks to everyone weighing in with their experiences. There is a lot of competition in this space and I appreciate hearing personal experiences others have had with different brand names, some of which I hadn't heard of until posts in this thread brought them to my attention.

 

There is one brand which I won't mention by name that I have no interest in owning. Last year I purchased a new model of their worm/ring gear mount and although it functions (barely) the quality was abysmal. The Dec axis rubs on internal components half way across its range of motion and backlash is the worst I have ever seen. There is a thread on Cloudy Nights discussing this very mount and it seems my problems were not unique as others who purchased this mount had similar problems, but some people luckier than I ended up with excellent versions. Perhaps I could have been vigilant in demanding warranty claims but shaking down a company that pawned garbage off on me is not really something I enjoy doing. Instead I decided to void the warranty and take the mount apart myself to see if there was anything I could do to fix it. I could have eliminated the Dec axis clearance issues without too much trouble, but the backlash issue was caused by poor machining and there was nothing that could be done in that regard beyond me buying a lathe and starting a new hobby. Rather than rush out and buy the strain wave mounts this company is offering, I'd rather give their competitors my business unless of course the competitors also have a reputation of horrific quality control.  

 

Hence this thread. Yes I realize Rainbow Astro and Pegasus Astro offer strain wave mounts. Yes I realize they are not Chinese companies. They also have reputations that are well know to me whereas some of the Chinese companies making strain wave mounts are not as well known to those like me who don't live in Mainland China and can't speak Mandarin. Because of this the quality control of these companies are not as well known simply because these companies are just getting started selling products to the international market. I'd rather not be a Guinee pig nor would I like to play product roulette and ship back mounts until I finally end up with a half decent one. That's why I am asking for personal experiences with Chinese made strain wave mounts. I know there are a lot of quality competitors out there, but I also know some companies will push absolute garbage out their doors onto consumers. Those are the companies I'd like to avoid so I can spend my evenings as a happy cripple achieving sub arcsecond guiding.