48 replies to this topic

[Demarki]

An excellent and detailed comparison between the two budget smart telescopes:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=2Y12vGmVQ94

 

Personally, I am pretty impressed by the technical capabilities of the DWARF 3 if you take its size/weight into consideration. Both smart telescopes are absolutely worth the $500 price tag.

[LDW47]

An excellent and detailed comparison between the two budget smart telescopes:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=2Y12vGmVQ94

 

Personally, I am pretty impressed by the technical capabilities of the DWARF 3 if you take its size/weight into consideration. Both smart telescopes are absolutely worth the $500 price tag.

Before you crow that there might be a new champion ( maybe ) you had better wait until ZWO have finished their next act, lol.  Ya thnk !  And we haven't even hit their new model yet, right.  PS:  As to size / weight I just did a wee bit weight training to get my strength up.

Edited by LDW47, 15 October 2024 - 10:33 AM.

[LDW47]

I watched the vid, how can you try and compare the D3 with mosaic and the S50 that does not YET have a mosaic mode, eh !  Kind of jumping the gun, maybe to get paid, or just afraid of what the future holds when the SeeStar comes down, ya think.

[Demarki]

Before you crow that there might be a new champion ( maybe ) you had better wait until ZWO have finished their next act, lol.  Ya thnk !  And we haven't even hit their new model yet, right.  PS:  As to size / weight I just did a wee bit weight training to get my strength up.

I'm not sure why you got a bit upset by this video, it was a pretty good comparison of the current state of the telescopes. If and when any of those gets some update down the line should not stop reviewers from making comparisons on the current state of the telescopes. I don't own either of those, nor do I have a specific preference. I feel both are great and competition is healthy, it pushes companies to innovate and drop their prices.

[chrisecurtis]

I watched the video just for interest. I've no skin in the game.

 

My impression was that he was surprised how close the results were on many targets between the two scopes. The effects of field rotation were more obvious on the Seestar 50, but it also had noticeably more detail when you looked closely enough (e.g. stars embedded in nebulosity). I thought it interesting that the scopes were set up differently, with longer exposures and equatorial being used on the D3.: that obviously affects the noise levels and SNR of the two scopes. In some ways, that's an unfair comparison, but if I were going to buy a D3 or Seestar50 it's reassuring that you can reliably get good results with a sensible setup with either scope.

[LDW47]

I'm not sure why you got a bit upset by this video, it was a pretty good comparison of the current state of the telescopes. If and when any of those gets some update down the line should not stop reviewers from making comparisons on the current state of the telescopes. I don't own either of those, nor do I have a specific preference. I feel both are great and competition is healthy, it pushes companies to innovate and drop their prices.

If I was doing that video I would have put in some sort of disclaimer that things are still changing with a new competitor model on the horizon which could guickly change some aspects of what I think is / was a hurried up, get this out the door before it happens marketing push. If there are implications of a competitor bringing out some Mosaic type features and you were an independent vidioer would you not want to wait til then to do your comparison, a more comprehensive comparison, a maybe more accurate comparison, really. I am not upset, just a little dumbfounded, lol. But not surprised one little bit, eh.  PS:  Who cares about that type of current affairs that probably won't last very long especially when most Dwarfers can't get a D3 til at least Jan or maybe longer, eh. We shall see when that time comes the relevance of that video.  PPS: Its all IMHO, right.

[LDW47]

I watched the video just for interest. I've no skin in the game.

 

My impression was that he was surprised how close the results were on many targets between the two scopes. The effects of field rotation were more obvious on the Seestar 50, but it also had noticeably more detail when you looked closely enough (e.g. stars embedded in nebulosity). I thought it interesting that the scopes were set up differently, with longer exposures and equatorial being used on the D3.: that obviously affects the noise levels and SNR of the two scopes. In some ways, that's an unfair comparison, but if I were going to buy a D3 or Seestar50 it's reassuring that you can reliably get good results with a sensible setup with either scope.

You are hedging on what I am getting at but not quite and I believe in the end he said the D3 was the better scope knowing the delays of any prospectives getting one vs SS's new widefield / mosaic model on the horizons edge. His reasoning to put it out to the Smart Scope world, with a straight face, does bring questions to mind, lol. One being that not many if any regular Dwarfers not even yet having a chance to comment on their D3 experiences and it looks like they won't have til sometime in the new year.

[LDW47]

I'm not sure why you got a bit upset by this video, it was a pretty good comparison of the current state of the telescopes. If and when any of those gets some update down the line should not stop reviewers from making comparisons on the current state of the telescopes. I don't own either of those, nor do I have a specific preference. I feel both are great and competition is healthy, it pushes companies to innovate and drop their prices.

What does healthy competition mean, inovation mean when no one but testers and a select few, have had a chance to try out their ordered D3's because of months and months of delays, really. How does the avarage D3'er know how they actually work, perform is it just by listening to some ........, eh. Time and new competition will tell.

[bradhaak]

I have both and the answer is obvious to me.

 

If you are into EAA and want to see something fast or capture enough data to process in the least time, and are willing to lose some resolution to do it, the Seestar is the absolute winner. 

 

If you are interested in ultimate image resolution and quality at the cost of spending a lot more time gathering the data, the Dwarf 3 is the absolute winner.

 

If you want both features sets together, spend a lot more money.

[LDW47]

I have both and the answer is obvious to me.

 

If you are into EAA and want to see something fast or capture enough data to process in the least time, and are willing to lose some resolution to do it, the Seestar is the absolute winner. 

 

If you are interested in ultimate image resolution and quality at the cost of spending a lot more time gathering the data, the Dwarf 3 is the absolute winner.

 

If you want both features sets together, spend a lot more money.

Thats what you say, how about the ......... of others that have to wait until sometime in the new year, until who knows when, before they can form their own opinion, eh. Their obviousness might be a little different than yours, right. Money has nothing to do with it !   PS:  What does ' ultimate ' mean in this issue, eh.

Edited by LDW47, 17 October 2024 - 03:00 PM.

[bradhaak]

Read the post. Comprehend the post. Agree or disagree with the post. I have both scopes. I use both scopes side by side and have done comparisons that satisfy  me. Anything expressed in a thread like this is an opinion. Mine is based on experience and actual usage. I suspect that yours isn't, so is irrelevant.

 

Have a wonderful day

[bradhaak]

I watched the vid, how can you try and compare the D3 with mosaic and the S50 that does not YET have a mosaic mode, eh !  Kind of jumping the gun, maybe to get paid, or just afraid of what the future holds when the SeeStar comes down, ya think.

D3 doesn't have mosaic mode, either. It was promised for launch, but isn't ready yet, even though I've had my D3 for almost a month. Should be available in November or December...hopefully. But will probably be here at about the same time or later than the Seestar mosaic mode.

 

Unless they are both in a late release competition. It's not like software engineers are ever overly optimistic in their schedules. I was many times and I got bit by others doing it many times more.

[bradhaak]

If I was doing that video I would have put in some sort of disclaimer that things are still changing with a new competitor model on the horizon which could guickly change some aspects of what I think is / was a hurried up, get this out the door before it happens marketing push. If there are implications of a competitor bringing out some Mosaic type features and you were an independent vidioer would you not want to wait til then to do your comparison, a more comprehensive comparison, a maybe more accurate comparison, really. I am not upset, just a little dumbfounded, lol. But not surprised one little bit, eh.  PS:  Who cares about that type of current affairs that probably won't last very long especially when most Dwarfers can't get a D3 til at least Jan or maybe longer, eh. We shall see when that time comes the relevance of that video.  PPS: Its all IMHO, right.

Agreed, but at the same time,. there is always a new competitor on the market, whether it's rumored, pre-announced, announced, or just shipping in limited quantity. And I hope it stays that way for a few years. New competitive products that leapfrog each other benefits us.

 

The only problem is for people who are only going to buy one and use it for the foreseeable future. They have to draw a line in the sand and buy the first one to cross the line. But, they also have recognize and accept that what they bought today probably won't hold up in six-months or a year. In a dynamic new field, change and obsolescence will be accelerated.

 

One thing I've always preached to companies and people is to think in terms of what I call functional obsolescence. Sure, there are newer and better and faster products available almost as soon as a purchase is made, but as long as the purchased product does the job it was purchased for, and as long as the user's requirements haven't changed, then it isn't functionally obsolete. So, there's no reason to replace it.

[bradhaak]

And if you want to see what the Seestar and the D3 (along with the Vespera 2 and Origin) can do in the uncontrolled environment of my usage, I have a site with a capture of three objects. The Dwarf 3 is only in the last two because the first was done in August. Each capture was for the same amount of time and was started within minutes of the other scopes. each one shows an out-of-scope unaltered or edited image from each scope and then there is a second image of each processed in PixInsight. I didn't try to optimize each picture because I tried to do the same processing on each, as nearly as I could. I'll be adding to it as I get the time.

 

For the Dwarf 3, I had to stack the FITS files because the 'raw' image they produce is already stretched and processed. It is basically a 16-bit version of the JPEG they save. There have been many required to provide an unstretched or processed tiff/fits, and we'll see if it happens.

 

The comparison is completely unscientific and completely subjective. So it's perfect to form opinions.

 

https://photos.app.g...T1nM4k8N4ZoW6c9

Edited by bradhaak, 17 October 2024 - 07:01 PM.

[LDW47]

And if you want to see what the Seestar and the D3 (along with the Vespera 2 and Origin) can do in the uncontrolled environment of my usage, I have a site with a capture of three objects. The Dwarf 3 is only in the last two because the first was done in August. Each capture was for the same amount of time and was started within minutes of the other scopes. each one shows an out-of-scope unaltered or edited image from each scope and then there is a second image of each processed in PixInsight. I didn't try to optimize each picture because I tried to do the same processing on each, as nearly as I could. I'll be adding to it as I get the time.

 

For the Dwarf 3, I had to stack the FITS files because the 'raw' image they produce is already stretched and processed. It is basically a 16-bit version of the JPEG they save. There have been many required to provide an unstretched or processed tiff/fits, and we'll see if it happens.

 

The comparison is completely unscientific and completely subjective. So it's perfect for form opinions.

 

https://photos.app.g...T1nM4k8N4ZoW6c9

Do you really, really think that a lot of the new beginers contemplating buying a SS, a D3, a ....... think the way you speak, they just want plain unadultered, easy to understand language as to what they will get for their money 'now', not tomorrow, next week or ...... Besides are we not talking that vid. comparing the SS against the new D3 or have I forgotten that fast, maybe I will watch it again just to see what I missed, eh. How can the many newcomers form an opinion when they are or have just gotten into this EAA game or are you just talking about / to the ones that have been in this game for the last year. How can even we oldginers form an opinion when the D3 isn't even available to the very few of us, eh. So just accept yours and a few others words / vids with no hands on, this is a merry-go-round game. Oh and listen to the video guy and his unbiased demonstration of things to come because few can put their hands on one, boy what a way to decide how to spend your cash. Let me be very clear again, I only questioned a video where some guy did a comparison between the year old SS and a new, untouchable, unavailable D3 that only a chosen few can put through the paces. Maybe I missed any disclaimers, who knows, really.  PS: Ya think maybe he should have waited until the new S30 flies out of the box and compare it with the D3, ya really think. He might as well have waited because no common EAA'er can put their hands on a D3 anyway, its still quite some time away unless .........  I have learned a long time ago not to listen to unfinished business ie schedule changes, features that aren't there but will be, etc. before I make a decision.

[bradhaak]

I kind of agree, and I was a huge critic of certain recommendations made on this board before the D3 had even shipped to anybody.

 

But the OP is asking today, and I happen to have both a Seestar and Dwarf 3 today, so I can give my honest evaluation based on actual usage. I wasn't given the scope, and I'm not a reviewer. I just happened be lucky and got one of the first batch that DwarfLab shipped, so I don't have a horse in the race.

 

In a couple of months, based on more developed software (I hope it's at least more complete by then), and with more of them in the hands of real users, the answers may be different. My own opinion may be change. But if you ask the question today, I'm a good candidate to give an opinionated and probably biased (we all are in one way or another) answer. At least I have one and have used it quite a bit, unlike a lot of other people who are pontificating about it.

 

The answer could also be affected by the Seestar S30 (or maybe not). Personally, I'm not interested in the S30 and don't imagine that will change. But it ties into the whole, "there will always be something new," opinion I expressed somewhere above. 

[GSBass]

Comparisons are just a part of the discussion with any new scope, the main take away from us that own the d3 and attempt to compare it to our other 50mm bots… is the nice surprise of how close the d3 is to them in resolution, not saying it matches them but you literally have to look closely and either crop d3 to the same fov or do a mosaic with the others.to do the comparison. One clear thing that makes the d3 stand out is the visual noise level is much lower on unprocessed shots. So anyway us lucky few that have gotten the d3 are pretty happy campers at this point and that’s saying a lot for a device still on its initial software release. As far as people clamoring for an s30 comparison, you will get your chance when it’s in the wild, but initially it feels like zwo is just trying to make a more affordable s50 instead of competing with the d3 or else they would have made it a widefield scope too. The dwarf 3 is on my recommend scope list, I see no reason why anyone buying it would be unhappy with the results, worthy

——-

Disclaimer… my personal comparisons are with Vespera classic, not Seestar, but mostly the same points apply, same aperture, same chip… main difference is both my robots are F4, Still love my Vespera, love its software, they were both out shooting different targets last night suited to their capabilities, and both delivered beautiful images

Edited by GSBass, 18 October 2024 - 07:42 AM.

[Dwight J]

I’d love to have both but my meager retirement funds say otherwise.  My plan is to convince our club to buy one.  It worked with the Seestar.  If I could buy it with the USD $ instead of the exchange in Cdn$ then maybe.  At All Star Telescope it lists for $691Cdn; a bit more than the Seestar.  The Seestar 30 may be interesting with a hopefully wider field capability similar to the d3.  A “fix” for the Seestar s50 would be an actual equatorial mode giving access to more of the sky as this is where the d3 has the advantage.  I am not really impressed with the mosaic mode from what I have seen.  

[LDW47]

Comparisons are great but at least wait til they both get out into the hands of the EAA public, to make a choice, to preorder. To buy based on the heresay of marketers, chosen ones, ......... is not a very good prospective and no one should use the words ' unbiased comparison ', right. Not from what I have read on these sights, the hidden motives many times are not that well hidden ie D3 are still trying to presell their ware that has been delayed for who knows how long, thats my example. I almost fell for it again after my D2, eh.  PS:  The proof of the pudding should be in ones hands not down the road, when !  IMveryHO !

Edited by LDW47, 18 October 2024 - 02:08 PM.

[GSBass]

There are daily post by real regular d3 users in the d3 fb forums, the people who have them ordered in the first day or two. As far as cloudynights, there are a handful of us that have been sharing daily and are ready to answer any questions people might have… if we know

[bradhaak]

Comparisons are great but at least wait til they both get out into the hands of the EAA public, to make a choice, to preorder. To buy based on the heresay of marketers, chosen ones, ......... is not a very good prospective and no one should use the words ' unbiased comparison ', right. Not from what I have read on these sights, the hidden motives many times are not that well hidden ie D3 are still trying to presell their ware that has been delayed for who knows how long, thats my example. I almost fell for it again after my D2, eh.  PS:  The proof of the pudding should be in ones hands not down the road, when !  IMveryHO !

I agree with this unless you have an early adopter mindset. If you can afford to be disappointed, and you are knowledgeable enough to work through teething issues, and patient enough to accept that you're going to run into frustrating, buggy software and that the product may not be what you expected, then go for it. 

 

But I don't believe that describes most people.

[LDW47]

Untruths and misrepresentations are a form of attack. Bullying is a form of attack. You have done all of them on this page. You have chosen not to attempt to agree, disagree or refute statements, instead you make your own  fallacious statements about the other participants.

 

If you have any real information that disagrees with anything posted, whether from personal experience, other reviews, videos or information from source materials that would contribute to the discussion it would be welcome.

 

Instead of making incorrect statements about me and others, why don't you produce any opinions or facts about the original question in the first post of the thread? I would love to get it back on topic, and if you have any actual information or ideas about it, I would welcome them. 

And for your info, my post #6 gave my thoughts to the OP as per my IMHO closing, eh. You and ....... didn't want to read or accept any of it, right. It went against the grain maybe ie a one year old, to the public smart scope vs a SS that no one can yet get their hands on contrary to what they were told but prepay anyhow, it seems.

[bradhaak]

You continue to use the same stories  that the scope isn't available and so anything I say is invalid. It's easily verifiable from multiple sources including the statements from DwarfLab, on Facebook, that they shipped roughly 300 D3s to paying customers in the second half of September. Evidently they only shipped to customers in the US (I don't know why). I preordered very early on the first day because I figured that I could cancel the order if I changed my mind or sell it if it wasn't worth keeping. Because of when I ordered, I was part of the first 300. If necessary, I can provide a shipment email and the tracking information. It shows the scope was picked up from Hong Kong on September 20, and delivered to me on September 23.

 

Oddly enough, I have used it multiple times. At CalStar, earlier this month, I used it side-by-side with my Seestar S50, My Vaonis Vespera 2, and my Celestron Origin on the same targets simultaneously. I posted some of the results and provided the URL earlier in this thread. You discounted them even though it is exactly what this thread is about. 

 

You accept the validity of postings about a video from someone who received the scope during the prerelease so they would provide positive reviews, but you totally reject the opinions of a paying customer after fabricating the story that I was recommending it before it ever shipped. There is not a single post on this board where I did that. There are however multiple posts where I specifically told others, regarding the D3, not to recommend products they'd never seen.

 

Here are some posts from just one thread where I said not to recommend it until you've seen it and to not recommend it as a shipping telescope that buyers could order and receive.

https://www.cloudyni...4#entry13654000

https://www.cloudyni...4#entry13654258

https://www.cloudyni...4#entry13656733

https://www.cloudyni...4#entry13657219

https://www.cloudyni...4#entry13657937

 

In this post from the same thread, you agreed with me.

https://www.cloudyni...4#entry13655862

 

There is at least one other thread with similar posts by me.

 

That's why I feel attacked by untruths. I have given you the benefit of the doubt because I truly believe that you are confusing me with another poster, but that doesn't make what you have said and implied, true. Your mistakenly false statements damage my reputation and the believability of anything else that I post.

 

Now please drop your agenda and let the thread get back on track before it gets shut down.

[tarbat]

If you are interested in ultimate image resolution and quality at the cost of spending a lot more time gathering the data, the Dwarf 3 is the absolute winner.

The image resolution on the Dwarf 3 at 2.8 arcsecs/pixel is actually worse than that on the Seestar at 2.4 arcsecs/pixel. This is also apparent in the images posted so far from the D3, with the average FWHM being around twice that of the Seestar. And of course the D3's smaller aperture means it's Dawes limit is over 40% higher than the Seestar.

 

And yes, the D3's speed measured by signal per arcsec² is 65% slower than the Seestar, so you'll likely need to image for 3x longer with the D3 to get a similar SNR to that achieved with a Seestar. And the lack of HCG mode usage on the D3's sensor really pushes the sensor read noise to a very high level.

 

The main technical advantage the Dwarf 3 has is it's field of view area, being over 5x greater. That is a significant advantage which in my mind means owning both a D3 and Seestar might be a sensible choice until ZWO perfects the Seestar's mosaic function.

 

Edited by tarbat, 19 October 2024 - 04:57 AM.

[bradhaak]

Agreed, but subjectively, the resolution and field of view are huge equalizers, and at least for me, the D3 images are amazing for the dinky toy-looking little thing they come from.

 

Mosaic mode is great and hopefully ZWO can get the performance improved over the early dev version that you and I have. Even if they can get the stacking up to the speed of normal live stacking it will be a huge deficit in performance. A mosaic that is twice the standard size in both dimensions will take at least four times as long to get an equivalent capture. But then again, getting rid of walking noise and field rotation artifacts are an added bonus.

 

That's why my biggest wish for the S30 is a fast processor to speed up it's mosaic stacking.