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ZWO AM5(N) - Lock/Clutch for RA/Dec Axes?

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#1 bangzhengsun1997

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 12:26 PM

I hope everyone is doing well!

 

While searching for a portable mount for my smaller setup for astrophotography while traveling, I realized a problem that almost nobody had mentioned yet (after watching so many "reviews," or maybe we should say ads, on YouTube).

 

The AM5 series doesn't seem to have locks/clutches for either the RA or Dec axis. Can we not rotate any axis until it is connected to power? After using traditional GEMs for years (and also iOptron HEM for a bit), this sounds like a very, very important issue to me and might be a dealbreaker. Even though balancing is not a problem for AM5, I'd prefer if they give us the flexibility - and this doesn't sound like something hard to achieve technically.

 

For those that are using AM5(N), have you ever encountered any problems caused by this?

 

P.S. I was not too fond of the hexkey design for HEM, but this possible problem with AM5 sounds more like a dealbreaker for me to buy another HEM or HAE mount.

 

Thanks everyone in advance and clear skies!



#2 ForeverNewbie

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 01:02 PM

I would not put too much weight to the absence of clutches. Maybe if you want to use it fully manually for visual, but for astrophotography I have not for one moment missed a clutch on my AM5. You can use the manual control (joystick-like) or the app on your phone, but usually I find my targets through platesolving. There is a reason that it is not mentioned as a problem in the reviews, in my experience it really isn't a problem.


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#3 lattitrail

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 01:31 PM

What need exists that would make rotation of the axes on a strain wave mount necessary when power is disconnected? 



#4 DirtyRod

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 03:07 PM

Has not been an issue for me. I just remember to home the mount at the end of every session which my automation always does. Don't remember ever having to slew it when I was not imaging unless it was to put it back in the case which is a rare for me. I think it's been back in it's case only once since I bought it. 


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#5 bangzhengsun1997

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 04:05 PM

Right - usually it's not a problem. However, what if one of the axes is a bit off from parked position so it cannot be fitted into the case? Without a clutch we do have to take it out, connect to power and hand controller, move it back, and then put it back to the case. What if sometimes I just want to take a shot of the moon quickly but still have to bring the battery with me.

 

If this is for the sake of going lightweight, I'd rather they have this flexibility since this doesn't really add too much weight/size to the mount itself. As a basic function for the majority of mounts, I can't say I don't need it to be there because it is not necessary. Maybe I should go to a starparty someday and really get hands on it to see if it really matters and is a dealbreaker for me.

 

Thanks everyone for your quick responses!


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#6 lattitrail

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Posted 30 October 2024 - 04:50 PM

Right - usually it's not a problem. However, what if one of the axes is a bit off from parked position so it cannot be fitted into the case? Without a clutch we do have to take it out, connect to power and hand controller, move it back, and then put it back to the case. What if sometimes I just want to take a shot of the moon quickly but still have to bring the battery with me.

 

If this is for the sake of going lightweight, I'd rather they have this flexibility since this doesn't really add too much weight/size to the mount itself. As a basic function for the majority of mounts, I can't say I don't need it to be there because it is not necessary. Maybe I should go to a starparty someday and really get hands on it to see if it really matters and is a dealbreaker for me.

 

Thanks everyone for your quick responses!

That makes sense. I couldn't imagine a scenario that made sense to me and was wondering what concerns others were having.



#7 Cliff Hipsher

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Posted 31 October 2024 - 01:28 PM

Right - usually it's not a problem. However, what if one of the axes is a bit off from parked position so it cannot be fitted into the case? 

For me this is a non issue.  My ASI Air plus controllers (I have three of them) will automatically home my mounts (GEM45, LXD75, and AM3) at the end of an imaging plan.  I have no doubt that other controllers and mount control applications have the same or similar functionality.



#8 Celerondon

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Posted 31 October 2024 - 02:39 PM

Right - usually it's not a problem. However, what if one of the axes is a bit off from parked position so it cannot be fitted into the case? Without a clutch we do have to take it out, connect to power and hand controller, move it back, and then put it back to the case. What if sometimes I just want to take a shot of the moon quickly but still have to bring the battery with me.

 

If this is for the sake of going lightweight, I'd rather they have this flexibility since this doesn't really add too much weight/size to the mount itself. As a basic function for the majority of mounts, I can't say I don't need it to be there because it is not necessary. Maybe I should go to a starparty someday and really get hands on it to see if it really matters and is a dealbreaker for me.

 

Thanks everyone for your quick responses!

The homing action cannot be “a bit off” because off because it is sensor dependent.  I would be surprised if I am wrong about this because I have never encountered or heard about a single instance where this hypothetical problem occurred. Rather than being a challenge, bringing a battery should be expected because electricity is not optional if you use this type of mount. 

 

For me this is a non issue.  My ASI Air plus controllers (I have three of them) will automatically home my mounts (GEM45, LXD75, and AM3) at the end of an imaging plan.  I have no doubt that other controllers and mount control applications have the same or similar functionality.

Right, this is a total non issue.  Everything that I use also has the homing functionality and this action is baked into my basic telescope operations whether I am doing visual observations or otherwise. When I am finished with using the rig, I home the telescope mount.  I never do this manually because my ASIAIR app, Sky Atlas, and hand paddle all have an automated sensor-aided version of the Home instruction built in.  This action precedes any equipment swaps or removals that are more extensive than an eyepiece change or other similar act. If I am installing a camera or removing a telescope, I home the mount first.  Is this habit unusual?  
 

Designing a strain wave gear mount with a clutch, at least on the RA axis, could be disastrous.  Because of the unbalanced configuration that these robust gear trains tolerate, it would not take long for a user of a clutch equipped SWG mount to have a horrible equipment incident after they unlocked a clutch with gear in the saddle.  
 

Don


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#9 bangzhengsun1997

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Posted 01 November 2024 - 07:30 PM

That sounds great! As someone who has been using EQ6R for a while, this was my concern. For an EQ6R, when paired with APT, the mount's remembered parked position will always change whenever I do star alignment, thus going back to the wrong parked position. This is not a problem with my Paramount. Good to know that they have now sorted this out with the new strain wave mounts.

 

I looked at iOptron HEM27A and found that it also doesn't have that clutch - might just be a trend now.

 

I'm also not planning to get ASI air (or any ASI mini computer) for now. Will this be a problem to you guys? I kind of know that ZWO wants to build a good ecosystem, but without an ASI air, is it hard to actually control the system? Say if I just want to do some planetary imaging with my Edge HD, I feel that it would be way easier if we just have a good hand controller like Sky Watcher or iOptron's.



#10 DirtyRod

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Posted 02 November 2024 - 08:25 AM

I'm also not planning to get ASI air (or any ASI mini computer) for now. Will this be a problem to you guys? I kind of know that ZWO wants to build a good ecosystem, but without an ASI air, is it hard to actually control the system? Say if I just want to do some planetary imaging with my Edge HD, I feel that it would be way easier if we just have a good hand controller like Sky Watcher or iOptron's.

I've run my AM5 with both an ASIAir and using Nina. Works fine with a PC. Your gap will be that you will need to use some kind of Skyatlas like Skysafari or Stellarium to slew to your targets since the HC is just a joystick and doesn't have a catalog like a traditional GEM. I have not tried to connect either of those two apps to the AM5 but I've interfaced them to my Celestron mounts so perhaps there is a way to use them with the AM5. 

To be honest, when I'm doing visual, I generally use a different mount but I have done visual with my C8 on the AM5 using Nina or Sharpcap loaded on the mini-PC attached to the OTA to slew to the targets. Without a PC, AA, or a HC with a catalog, you need a way actually select and slew to your targets. Otherwise, you will be trying to eyeball it with the finder. 

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Edited by DirtyRod, 02 November 2024 - 08:35 AM.


#11 psandelle

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Posted 02 November 2024 - 11:39 AM

 

 

I looked at iOptron HEM27A and found that it also doesn't have that clutch - might just be a trend now.

Okay, it's early, but maybe I missed something, but: SWG mounts don't have clutches. It's not a trend, it's the SWG.

Paul



#12 AstroAlexN

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Posted 03 November 2024 - 11:57 PM

They don't have clutches because there is no need for one - It's not a trend...

Even if you were going to take a quick shot of something, in order to get it framed and focused correctly, you'd want tracking, so the need for power/batteries is still there. 

The mount doesn't require careful balancing, so, no need to release a clutch.
The mount can be controlled with a smartphone app to point it, so no need for computers or anything super technical.
The mounts auto-homing is controlled by sensors, so it will never be 'a bit off'. 

I was skeptical of a lot of things about strain wave gear mounts until I bit the bullet and bought one... 

I didn't like that there was no counterweight, I didn't like the high PE figures, I didn't understand how it could be accurate without balancing in any way... 
I didn't even like the fact that a 5kg mount could slew a C11 around like it didn't even exist... The whole thing seemed 'WRONG' to me. 

Last night, in a reasonable breeze, with a 5" APO hanging off it with no counterweights, my Emcan EM31 Pro happily guided away for 7hrs at 0.39" total RMS all night long... 

Believe the hype... they aren't going anywhere.

 


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#13 luxo II

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Posted 04 November 2024 - 12:58 AM

I'm also not planning to get ASI air (or any ASI mini computer) for now. Will this be a problem to you guys? I kind of know that ZWO wants to build a good ecosystem, but without an ASI air, is it hard to actually control the system? Say if I just want to do some planetary imaging with my Edge HD, I feel that it would be way easier if we just have a good hand controller like Sky Watcher or iOptron's.

There's no reason you have to leave the camera connected to ASIAir - run the mount using ASIAir and connect the planetary camera to a laptop via USB.

 

In my case its relatively easy because I use a MacBook Air - the silicon Macs can run the ASIAir app natively, and operate the camera all on the one machine.


Edited by luxo II, 04 November 2024 - 12:58 AM.


#14 bangzhengsun1997

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Posted 04 November 2024 - 09:42 PM

I've run my AM5 with both an ASIAir and using Nina. Works fine with a PC. Your gap will be that you will need to use some kind of Skyatlas like Skysafari or Stellarium to slew to your targets since the HC is just a joystick and doesn't have a catalog like a traditional GEM. I have not tried to connect either of those two apps to the AM5 but I've interfaced them to my Celestron mounts so perhaps there is a way to use them with the AM5. 

To be honest, when I'm doing visual, I generally use a different mount but I have done visual with my C8 on the AM5 using Nina or Sharpcap loaded on the mini-PC attached to the OTA to slew to the targets. Without a PC, AA, or a HC with a catalog, you need a way actually select and slew to your targets. Otherwise, you will be trying to eyeball it with the finder. 

That's interesting. For me, I will only use it for planetary imaging with my C8 HD or photography with my Rokinon 135mm lens - none of those purposes would require any accurate go-to, so a single hand controller would do. I'm a paramount user so I'm now used to an HC basically with only a joystick. When using my FSQ106 or (especially) C8 for deep sky imaging I would rather setup my Paramount instead. One question: C8 is still within the payload capacity without a counterweight - have you ever tested it running without it? Does it track well enough? 

 

 

They don't have clutches because there is no need for one - It's not a trend...

Even if you were going to take a quick shot of something, in order to get it framed and focused correctly, you'd want tracking, so the need for power/batteries is still there. 

The mount doesn't require careful balancing, so, no need to release a clutch.
The mount can be controlled with a smartphone app to point it, so no need for computers or anything super technical.
The mounts auto-homing is controlled by sensors, so it will never be 'a bit off'. 

I was skeptical of a lot of things about strain wave gear mounts until I bit the bullet and bought one... 

I didn't like that there was no counterweight, I didn't like the high PE figures, I didn't understand how it could be accurate without balancing in any way... 
I didn't even like the fact that a 5kg mount could slew a C11 around like it didn't even exist... The whole thing seemed 'WRONG' to me. 

Last night, in a reasonable breeze, with a 5" APO hanging off it with no counterweights, my Emcan EM31 Pro happily guided away for 7hrs at 0.39" total RMS all night long... 

Believe the hype... they aren't going anywhere.

 

Thanks for the comments! I've heard a lot about their overall great performance - not as good as a GEM in terms of tracking accuracy, but decent enough. Honestly, I would still say it's a trend... it's something every single mount should have, regardless of whether it's useful - they can add it easily, just in case someone needs it, unless it's mechanically impossible. 



#15 psandelle

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Posted 04 November 2024 - 09:53 PM

That's interesting. For me, I will only use it for planetary imaging with my C8 HD or photography with my Rokinon 135mm lens - none of those purposes would require any accurate go-to, so a single hand controller would do. I'm a paramount user so I'm now used to an HC basically with only a joystick. When using my FSQ106 or (especially) C8 for deep sky imaging I would rather setup my Paramount instead. One question: C8 is still within the payload capacity without a counterweight - have you ever tested it running without it? Does it track well enough? 

 

 

Thanks for the comments! I've heard a lot about their overall great performance - not as good as a GEM in terms of tracking accuracy, but decent enough. Honestly, I would still say it's a trend... it's something every single mount should have, regardless of whether it's useful - they can add it easily, just in case someone needs it, unless it's mechanically impossible. 

It’s not really possible with the way SWGs work.

 

Paul



#16 DirtyRod

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Posted 04 November 2024 - 11:24 PM

That's interesting. For me, I will only use it for planetary imaging with my C8 HD or photography with my Rokinon 135mm lens - none of those purposes would require any accurate go-to, so a single hand controller would do. I'm a paramount user so I'm now used to an HC basically with only a joystick.

 

One question: C8 is still within the payload capacity without a counterweight - have you ever tested it running without it? Does it track well enough? 

You are a better man than I am using only a joystick. Trying to get Neptune, Uranus, or even Mars in the FOV at 2k+mm without an accurate GoTo is a tall order for me.

 

My C8 is about 28lbs which is within the capacity. The issue is having the OTA hanging off the side at an extreme such as when pointed at the meridian. The mount can handle it but, even with a CW in the weight bag, my TC40 tripod can “walk” when it does a slew. Also, during some wind gusts, I get concerned and I do see a few blurred subs right after a flip that I don’t see with a CW bar and CW. Cheap insurance for me when running my C8 or 115mm refractor.



#17 Celerondon

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Posted 05 November 2024 - 06:21 AM

That's interesting. For me, I will only use it for planetary imaging with my C8 HD or photography with my Rokinon 135mm lens - none of those purposes would require any accurate go-to, so a single hand controller would do. I'm a paramount user so I'm now used to an HC basically with only a joystick. When using my FSQ106 or (especially) C8 for deep sky imaging I would rather setup my Paramount instead. One question: C8 is still within the payload capacity without a counterweight - have you ever tested it running without it? Does it track well enough? 

 

 

Thanks for the comments! I've heard a lot about their overall great performance - not as good as a GEM in terms of tracking accuracy, but decent enough. Honestly, I would still say it's a trend... it's something every single mount should have, regardless of whether it's useful - they can add it easily, just in case someone needs it, unless it's mechanically impossible.

Whether it is physically possible to add a clutch to the RA axis of a SWG mount or not, it would be ergonomically foolish.  No one “needs” to break their stuff. 

Don

 

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