62 replies to this topic

[Ron359]

Well, nothing we can do about it now but hope they make them less reflective in the future. We can hate on Musk all we want but that isn't going to stop China and their plan to also send thousands of satellites up to compete. The CCP doesn't care. We see this in their 1st gen satellites that are extremely bright. They didn't attempt to lower the reflection. 

 

I bet India will be next in the future to launch their own version to compete. 

Negotiations  with  'adversaries' reduced the once enormous numbers of  ten of thousands of nuclear weapons to just a few thousand in just a few years. Mutual agreement that tens of thousands of those weapons cost a fortune, a very dangerous risk and were not needed greatly reduced the risk they will be used by accident or intentionally.  

 

When it is in the interests of 'all parties'  similar thinking that mega-constellations are hazardous to non-military uses of space, science and the environment, as well as  un-needed and unprofitable could be reached far easier I suspect.  The only 'loser' is one man's ego trip.  Starlink and the concept will never be profitable or sustainable anyway.  

 

The real solution if its really needed  to global internet w/o cables or towers,  was first envisioned at the end of WW2, in a paper by visionary space 'genius' Arthur C. Clarke.  Its the geosynchronous satellite.  They've been working away for decades only  a  a tiny fraction  of mega-constellations.   broadcasting live,  or recorded HD or even 4K  video to hundreds of millions of viewers and subscribers, far cheaper than Starlink.   They may only need to be bigger and better to handle the cat video traffic.  

[ayadai]

For those in the US, one way to make starlink and its ilk less profitable, hence less prevalent, is to support the growth of fiber broadband as a rural utility, similar to the NRECA in the early 40s and 50s. Every effort, no matter how small, helps to keep our skies just a bit clearer.

[BlueMoon]

<CYNIC MODE ON>

32,000 more clay pigeons. (Some countries in particular are said to be perfecting land-based laser targeting of satellites). Or perhaps 32,000 more chances for another collision: https://en.wikipedia...llite_collision and increasing the odds of a Kessler Cascade. Or missing an important radar detection and ranging of a planet-killer asteroid. However, what I think it will take to rein in this "satellite insanity" will be having a piece of space junk labeled "SpaceX" crash through something ... like a nuclear power facility or a politicians house. Cheers. 

<CYNIC MODE OFF>

Edited by BlueMoon, 02 November 2024 - 05:24 AM.

[Silent_Light]

I'm torn on this one....while I can't stand what he's doing to our precious sky.....I'm dependent on satellites for Internet, tv, etc due to my location.  Tried the single satellite services (Hughes/ViaSat) but if anything goes wrong, service calls are weeks out, Hughes was a month when router went wonky.

So I decided to make the 35 mile drive to Walmart and grabbed the $350 Starlink kit ..... I was up and running within an hour, and speeds are 350mbps, video quality is amazing, and it's unlimited data.  Same price as ViaSat, $40 more than Hughes....

 

I feel like a traitor....but a happy traitor, I dont think 64000 satellites are a good thing, if they can trim it down to what they have now i net we wouldnt notice in a few years

Edited by Silent_Light, 01 November 2024 - 09:15 PM.

[MJB87]

The real solution if its really needed  to global internet w/o cables or towers,  was first envisioned at the end of WW2, in a paper by visionary space 'genius' Arthur C. Clarke.  Its the geosynchronous satellite.

Absolutely NOT the solution. The latency problem is just too significant. This rules out GEO satellites for many common modern IT applications. Nothing you can do to fix it.

 

I live in an area without any cable or fiber connections, even though we are only 60 miles, as the crow flies, from our nation's capital. We do not have reliable 5G service in our area, nor will we ever likely have it given the geography and low population density in this farming community.

 

My only internet options are satellite: GEO or LEO.  I used to use Viasat (GEO). A disaster. Unreliable in any kind of rain. Impossible to use for many real-time applications. I then became an early user of Starlink (LEO). It has been a godsend. I now have reliable, moderately fast, low-latency access to the internet for the first time.

 

Are my imaging sessions interrupted by his satellites? Yes, perhaps one sub in ten, but I can typically filter out the disturbances. More common are interruptions by aircraft.

 

There is no free lunch. Our night skies are being polluted but millions of people now have moderate-speed and low-latency access to the internet for the first time.  I'm no fan of Musk (who I have had as a client in the past and have met several times) and I look forward to tossing "Dishy" off the roof should fiber ever come to our neighborhood. But for now, it is a great option for us.

[Ron359]

Absolutely NOT the solution. The latency problem is just too significant. This rules out GEO satellites for many common modern IT applications. Nothing you can do to fix it.

 

 

IMO - its not technological problem at all.  It all depends on what you values, lifes'  priorties and your attention span.  

 

If a bit of delay in watching in your  cat videos causes you to pitch a fit, or  even roll your eyes,  then its a problem for you or your 5 yr. old.  Certainly some techno-billionaire stable genius could solve that techno IT problem for you if it means more profit for him.

 

 For me its not worth giving up a 'quiet dark night sky' or the astronomy science facilities that 2 hundred years of astronomers built on this planet, and see it reduced to only being done by a tiny few satellites out at the Lagrange points or backside of the Moon.  I could give a rats xxxwhisker about your or my astro-photos being ruined. It would be shame and loss for me,  but they add nothing to human astronomical discoveries or science.  But when the very science that may well save thousand or a billion,  from  an incoming "unknown, known" someday is missed,  because some few pitched a fit over their slow running cat video.  Thats a real problem, even for 5 yr. olds.  

[MJB87]

Sorry. I don't watch cat videos. And I am not 5 years old. Not sure how you reached those conclusions.

 

I spend a lot of time trying to solve big problems with industrial companies, quite literally, all over the world. Try working with colleagues in Italy or Australia using Zoom or Teams while operating over a flimsy GEO high-latency connection.

 

My light pollution problem is more related to aircraft than spacecraft. By extension, your priorities would ban air travel. Ironically, that would make effective low-latency communications even more important.

 

We can complain about such things. I'd rather focus our energies not trying to hold back the tide, but minimizing its effects by designing spacecraft that have less reflective characteristics.

[Ron359]

Sorry. I don't watch cat videos. And I am not 5 years old. Not sure how you reached those conclusions.

 

I spend a lot of time trying to solve big problems with industrial companies, quite literally, all over the world. Try working with colleagues in Italy or Australia using Zoom or Teams while operating over a flimsy GEO high-latency connection.

 

My light pollution problem is more related to aircraft than spacecraft. By extension, your priorities would ban air travel. Ironically, that would make effective low-latency communications even more important.

 

We can complain about such things. I'd rather focus our energies not trying to hold back the tide, but minimizing its effects by designing spacecraft that have less reflective characteristics.

This is really no different than if a heavy metal rock band moved into your quiet neighborhood and started having rave parties for 10K head bangers 24/7. Or a car dealer opened a lot next door with huge lights.  A  a few acoustic guitar players or backyard mechanics are not  going to ruin your backyard BBQ  The raves,  would completely violate zoning laws for appropriate use of the 'space' and neighbors around you.  Noise is NOISE,  and a form of pollution that can be very destructive.  Its not a useful signal in any wavelength.   

 

1,800 years ago, the army of the Roman Empire could send (even coded) messages all the way from Rome to its furthest 'outpost' in Britannia in less than one day using towers, flags runners and torches.  Lincoln coordinated orders and battles with his generals all across the eastern and southern states from a telegraph station from 'the Wash. D.C. 'Pentagon' of the Civil War'  As with all IT problems, as  I said, techno solutions are likely, as are many alternatives to internet w/o 100,000 pieces of shiny junk in LEO sky. We have different values and definitions of what Light Pollution is.  

 

There is little doubt amongst the pro-astronomer community that 100,000 shiny (even 7th mag. - is like the Sun in a huge telescope) will destroy the ability to do science from ground-based observatories and even severely degrade orbiting observatories.  There are billions of dollars invested in these observatories, not to mention the thousands of university programs and students that partly fund the research, that will be the immediate losers.

 

  It will be history repeating itself.  Pro-observatories used to be located where the astronomers were, next door to the major universities in the major cites and towns all over 'civilized' world.  Then all pro-observatories had to move out of light polluted cities in the early 20th century, not long after the electric light became 'popular.'  Today, they are mostly on extremely remote mountain tops at 15K ft. the last semi-habitable refuge of dark skies on the Earth.    

 

No one cared then or still cares about the 'amateurs' now 'stuck' with driving 100 miles or struggling to do limited narrowband imaging with whats left of the slivers of relative dark between emission bands of LP.  When broadband LED LP takes over 100% of LP, there are no 'slivers' left.   So we put differing values of Astronomy and the night sky in our lives.  And so, will have to agree to disagree.  

Edited by Ron359, 02 November 2024 - 03:49 PM.

[Rickycardo]

Again, we won't stop this from continuing and growing. The blunt truth is no one besides us cares about the dark skies. There are just thousands of us versus the billions who demand connectivity. It's going to happen. What we can do is become a voice for limiting the impact these satellite constellations will have on the night sky. Trust me, I'm torn between this as well. I do know that China and India and any other country that starts putting up these types of satellites will have even less concern about their impact than Starlink.

I know how you feel. I spend a lot of time and energy being angry about things I cannot always change. I can't dam the river but maybe I can help redirect it.

[Big_Eight]

This is something they've been trying to do since they started this whole thing. They originally wanted 40k satellites up. No surprises here.

I worry that many companies/nations have this same goal.



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[Jhunt]

At least SpaceX listen and modified their satellites to reduce the impact they have. The newer versions reflect less light. 

 

The satellites the Chinese launched are super bright. They probably don't care and won't case. A private company vs a government-controlled company. 

[Ron359]

At least SpaceX listen and modified their satellites to reduce the impact they have. The newer versions reflect less light. 

 

The satellites the Chinese launched are super bright. They probably don't care and won't case. A private company vs a government-controlled company. 

FACT CHECK:  Except in their propaganda   Space X don't care either.  Watch what they do, not what they say.  

 

  https://www.space.co...light-pollution

 

https://www.science....adio-telescopes

Edited by Ron359, 04 November 2024 - 10:09 PM.

[brroberts]

I wish I didn’t have StarLink.  I’ve tried everything for years to avoid it, but if I want to have any kind of internet here, it’s going to be satellite. I live 16 miles from Kansas University, and 20 miles from the Kansas capital, and I don’t have any reasonable hot spot, fixed wireless,  or dsl internet. So after much frustration, I have StarLink and I don’t recall watching any cat videos

[ddouble518]

It’s called progress. Cost per launch continues to go down. In the near future, ground based research will become obsolete as cost parity to space based instillations becomes more attractive.

[Jhunt]

We'll probably be putting the next observatories on the far side of the moon in the future. 

[Tony Flanders]

It’s called progress. Cost per launch continues to go down. In the near future, ground based research will become obsolete as cost parity to space based instillations becomes more attractive.

I assume you're talking about telescopes. For most kinds of research, there's no benefit to being in outer space.

As far as astronomy is concerned, space telescopes do have the huge advantage of having access to wavelengths that are blocked by Earth's atmosphere. And obviously space probes are unrivaled for exploring solar-system objects. No matter how much magnification you employ, there's no substitute for getting up close.

But for most purposes, the advantages of ground-based telescopes are if anything increasing relative to space-based telescopes. Adaptive optics have gone a long way toward eliminating atmospheric distortion. There are overwhelming obstacles to deploying genuinely large mirrors in space. But above all, ground-based telescopes excel in the ability to deploy new, cutting-edge sensors. Space telescopes are inevitably stuck with obsolete technology.

[N3p]

I don't know if you realize that if the US is not sending the 32 000 satellites, others will take the spot from you and do it instead. At least, the tool is yours. Musk did it first, it's American might. I read about starlink, will give internet to people in remote places, I think the primary purpose is a military. 

 

I seriously hate to see a starlink string, they should paint the next generation with Venta Black but I think that Musk is a great American hero , yes.  He fights for freedom of speech with courage, I like courageous people and freedom of speech, and soon, efficiency.

Edited by N3p, 06 November 2024 - 06:50 PM.

[Ron359]

I can't help myself to re-post this incredible 'breakthrough' use (not) use for tens of thousands of LP high tech satellites to provide free internet service to thousands of 3rd world information deprived in rural areas that have no other internet access.  Thank god for Musk to fill this 'need' of those seeking more knowledge and freedom they could not get otherwise.   It doesn't even stream real cats.   Since we can't enjoy astronomy, the rest of should sell our telescopes and get these downlink things. 

 

https://www.newsweek...ography-1981960

Edited by Ron359, 08 November 2024 - 01:00 AM.

[Piero DP]

Aside from giving internet to people living in more remote area, to me his other big interest is to give internet access everywhere his Tesla cars (particularly self-driven ones) go.

Obviously giving internet to people is also a major advantage, particularly if one day he decided to run for the White House.

[Big_Eight]

Aside from giving internet to people living in more remote area, to me his other big interest is to give internet access everywhere his Tesla cars (particularly self-driven ones) go.

Obviously giving internet to people is also a major advantage, particularly if one day he decided to run for the White House.

The white house isn't happening. He's not a natural born citizen of the United States.

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[Piero DP]

The white house isn't happening. He's not a natural born citizen of the United States.

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.. unless someone changes the rules and the new coming resident is known for big changes. 

[BFaucett]

.. unless someone changes the rules and the new coming resident is known for big changes. 

 

The rules covering this are The Constitution of the United States and it's not easily changed (amended).

 

The Constitution of the United States

https://www.archives...cs/constitution

 

 

"An amendment may be proposed by a two-thirds vote of both Houses of Congress, or, if two-thirds of the States request one, by a convention called for that purpose. The amendment must then be ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures, or three-fourths of conventions called in each State for ratification."

https://www.whitehou...he-constitution

 

Bob F.

[Ron359]

The rules covering this are The Constitution of the United States and it's not easily changed (amended).

 

The Constitution of the United States

https://www.archives...cs/constitution

 

 

"An amendment may be proposed by a two-thirds vote of both Houses of Congress, or, if two-thirds of the States request one, by a convention called for that purpose. The amendment must then be ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures, or three-fourths of conventions called in each State for ratification."

https://www.whitehou...he-constitution

 

Bob F.

The new 'ruler' is now immune from all prosecution for "official acts."  And has already used his "mind" (used in loosest form) to change the rules.  

[ccate]

please make this thread great again... can we not go there?

[Piero DP]

please make this thread great again... can we not go there?

I agree.

The massive increase in the number of satellites in orbit will launch a new era for amateur astronomy for sure.

I predict that in the coming decade we will see more and more posts like "what's the best telescope/eyepiece to see details in these satellite?"

I hope that my 16" dobson and XWAs eps will show many of them at the same time, given the resolution and large FOV!