28 replies to this topic

[Stellar1]

For the entire time I have had a fascination with solar (7yrs now) I have always had nothing but an Ha scope, my reasoning was why do white light if you have Ha? this all changed recently. While at Starfest this past August, I purchased a Baader WL filter for my 128 but even then I was hesitant about it as I kept wondering what else I would see that Ha couldn’t show. Was I ever wrong and my doubts buried when I put on the solar film and pointed the 128 to the sun, the details I could see in every part of the spots was a wake up call. My brain was mush, with a steady atmosphere I was able to use high powers on spots and notice hair like details which I couldn’t make out in Ha. Ever since then I couldn’t use my Lunt without the 128 beside it, going back and forth between the two is solar nirvana, I guess I grew up thinking WL filters just showed a black dot and not much else, if my Baader solar film blows my mind with my 128, I wonder if a wedge would be that much better? I do understand that wedges have the ability to use different wavelength filters which has me curious as ever. Maybe I’ll search out threads here for more info on wedges over films and what the main advantages are. In the meantime, as much as I love Ha, those spots in WL are blowing me away.

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Edited by Stellar1, 02 November 2024 - 04:22 PM.

[Spikey131]

Yes, indeed!

 

In the foreground the Questar is a superb white light scope with a full aperture filter.

 

The background is an AP130GT with a Daystar Quark, catching all the H-alpha details.

 

A great way to spend some time on a sunny day.

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[Stellar1]

Yes, indeed!

 

In the foreground the Questar is a superb white light scope with a full aperture filter.

 

The background is an AP130GT with a Daystar Quark, catching all the H-alpha details.

 

A great way to spend some time on a sunny day.

WHOA! can you get any better than that combo? a couple of holy grail scopes, right there.

[Sebastian_Sajaroff]

I have a 70 mm ED F/6 refractor.
I use it sometimes with a Lunt wedge + Baader continuum filter (white light), sometimes with the Quark Prominence (Ha).
I tend to observe in white light while I wait for the Quark to heat up, or when it’s cold outside.
Ha usually gives me a richer experience, but I still like to complete it with the white light view.

Edited by Sebastian_Sajaroff, 02 November 2024 - 06:40 PM.

[bobhen]

Absolutely! White light and Ha light are great to observer together.

 

Below is my Tak FC-100DF with a 1.25" solar wedge for white light and my Lunt 100 Ha scope for observing in Ha light.  

 

Bob

 

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[bigdob24]

Bobhen

What mount do you have for the two scope setup?

[bobhen]

Bobhen

What mount do you have for the two scope setup?

The mount is a Desert Sky Astro DSV-3. It has slow-motion controls but the extra long cables I had and they do not come with the mount. The motions in both axises are buttery smooth.  I've had the mount for 9-years, so that says something. With a heavier duty tripod Desert Sky says it will hold a C11 and a TEC 140. It's been a workhorse mount.

 

It's less robust than a Rowan AZ100 but its also less expensive.

 

Bob

[TareqPhoto]

One day i hope

[gnowellsct]

For the entire time I have had a fascination with solar (7yrs now) I have always had nothing but an Ha scope, my reasoning was why do white light if you have Ha? this all changed recently. While at Starfest this past August, I purchased a Baader WL filter for my 128 but even then I was hesitant about it as I kept wondering what else I would see that Ha couldn’t show. Was I ever wrong and my doubts buried when I put on the solar film and pointed the 128 to the sun, the details I could see in every part of the spots was a wake up call. My brain was mush, with a steady atmosphere I was able to use high powers on spots and notice hair like details which I couldn’t make out in Ha. Ever since then I couldn’t use my Lunt without the 128 beside it, going back and forth between the two is solar nirvana, I guess I grew up thinking WL filters just showed a black dot and not much else, if my Baader solar film blows my mind with my 128, I wonder if a wedge would be that much better? I do understand that wedges have the ability to use different wavelength filters which has me curious as ever. Maybe I’ll search out threads here for more info on wedges over films and what the main advantages are. In the meantime, as much as I love Ha, those spots in WL are blowing me away.

Looking at the rig I'd say one of the effects you're seeing is aperture (between h-alpha in the small scope and white light in the big one).  I do solar observing in 92mm and 130mm and typically see more than all but the very best pictures posted here.  The reason, I suspect, is the aperture.   When I have been to NEAF and viewed through the various h-alpha rigs there has been noticeable difference in detail comparing the smaller scopes to the bigger ones.  (NEAF, weather permitting, has bunch of solar rig vendors on an outside lawn).

 

Anyhow today I used the Quark combo on the 130mm and the Baader Herschel Wedge on the 92mm.   

 

I find the Herschel wedge much more satisfying and sharp than I ever got from film.  When I saw how clean it was I kicked myself for waiting so long.  (I waited till the after the solar eclipse last spring to pick one up used, I've been thinking about the wedge for oh, I dunno, 10+ years) 

 

I hope that Daystar fixes whatever quality issues were making some people here so unhappy.  I continue to get excellent performance on the Quark combo.  So h-alpha plus white light.  The smaller refractor mounted on the bigger one.  

 

Got a picture of the rig after today's viewing with our four month old astro-puppy.

 

Greg N

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Edited by gnowellsct, 04 November 2024 - 12:06 AM.

[hornjs]

Couldn't agree more Stellar1.

I have really enjoyed high res views on WL with the addition of my 6" celestron refractor.

Completely different level of satisfaction from Ha. 

Granted the Ha blows me away, when you can capture animation sequences, but still...

[gstrumol]

Add me to the list. With large AR groups on the disk there is a different, but equally pleasing, satisfaction to WL observing/imaging, particularly at higher magnifications. The detailed structure in the penumbras, and the light bridges inside the umbras are wonderful to see. Also to follow the progression over days of the groups as they traverse the disk, morphing and evolving, is fun to record.

 

And while you can't do animations like you can in Ha, there's always this type you can construct:

 

https://www.cloudyni...14877-switch-1/

[gnowellsct]

I had occasion to compare The Lunt and quark combo chroma once. The Lunt showed superior prominence detail. But the level of detail in the quark combo was engrossing. And the quark showed just about everything I could hope for in terms of surface detail: plages, filaments, fine structure around sunspots. I had no complaints that prominence detail was better in the other scope. It was exactly as advertised. I talked to the rep and was told I would get very good prominence detail and excellent surface detail. And that's what I got.

So now that I have the Baader wedge I am very impressed with it but it would not occur to me to say I see more in it than I see in H alpha.

So I have been greatly puzzled by what people are posting here. Then I remembered my side by side And it occurs to me that if one has been using an H alpha tuned for prominences then one indeed might conclude that H alpha does not give surface detail comparable to The wedge. But I think it is an error. If I had a lunt optimized for prominences then I think I would conclude the wedge was superior for disc detail. But I think much depends on how you like your H alpha served. There is a wealth of detail available H alpha.

On the quark combo you need to use either a 2x or 4x telecentric and the level of disk detail is greatly superior at 4x. This is very different from white light applications where the level of detail with a 4X Barlow is almost never as good as you would get with a 1.5X or 2x Barlow because of the tendency to over magnify. I don't understand the physics but almost everyone agrees that the 4x telecentric delivers the best performance.

In other words you could have The same quark combo I have and if you decided you didn't want to spend the extra money for a 4x you would indeed be of the opinion that the wedge gives superior surface detail to the H alpha. Because at 2x it's just not that impressive.

Indeed when I'm sharing views in an outreach capacity the spectacular nature of the quark combo is difficult to share with newbies. First of all they find it confusing because they are expecting a full disc view. At 4x you only get partial disc. And secondly the focus is slightly different depending on whether you want to observe The prominences or the surface. It is for me anyhow. I find that the optimal focus for details around sunspots and plages etc is just a tad different from optimal focus on the prominences.

Anyhow I think the difference between white light and H alpha that is being described here is due more to the particular flavor of H alpha that some people are using.

And the very different level of detail at 4x as opposed to 2x is always surprising to me. It's not like switching from 4x to 2x on the moon. You see large features that you do not see at lower magnification. And using the 2x telecentric while switching to an eyepiece at half the focal length, say a 15 mm, does not give you a 4x equivalent. If only that were true I would have saved 300 bucks.

When all was said and done though the quark combo requires a lot of fiddling and has its own rules about which eye pieces to use and which telecentric and even what adjustment to tune the etalon to. By contrast you throw the Herschel wedge in and there's no fiddling required. You can switch between eye pieces as much as you please And you don't need a telecentric. (Though one can use them in any application). There is one and only one point of focus for optimal detail.

So I think it's a great thing to have running side by side with h alpha.

Edited by gnowellsct, 04 November 2024 - 09:23 AM.

[TareqPhoto]

I said one day i hope i meant that i will complete my solar gear either for imaging which is the main or visual, this year i struggled with budget to get gear, last too, before last year as well, all years i am struggling to get budget as soon and as enough as i need, but it is what it is, now from last month and on i got better budget, so last month i spent on something else, this month i am back for astro things, and this time i will try to almost finish my solar gear as much i can, and that is including the Baader and Lunt Wedges, because Baader one sounds good for larger scopes which is part of the plan, while i will get Lunt wedge at 1.25" for smaller aperture, by that i am closing the WL completely.

 

Then for Ha i already have the Quark Combo Chromo, i tried it before in the past i think last year or in 2022 with big fail, then by the end last year with 5x also with fail, then 2x and it was a success, and i believe it was the extension issue for focus, i stopped and didn't try again and again, i carried out in life, now with good budget coming and the weather is getting nicer i think i will be back to try everything for Ha, but i keep thinking about getting either Baader 3x telecentric Barlow or TV 4x Powermate, because i want to use 4x for planetary also and i love PM ones, but people prefer that Baader one for solar, i prefer 4x PM for planetary, so i was thinking 3x can be enough for solar maybe, you suggest me or give me your opinion.

 

I also think about adding Lunt Ha later if i manage to save budget, but definitely i go with cheap thing, like Lunt 40 or 50, but is it a good idea to have 40/50 only for full disk while using the Quark for close ups with larger scope maybe? I also want to do DS, i don't think i can buy Lunt 60 SS and then DS, and 40 DS is already expensive and it is getting more going up in size, but i will keep the door open and the idea going if one day i can afford it, until that time i can practice and use my Quark.

 

All that above gear is by using my mounts including Skywatcher AZ-GTi [two] and SolarQuest, i am planning to buy a harmonic mount also for DSO so i might use that for solar too, while my AZ-EQ6 is still abandoned, too heavy, but i will never forget it, i will find a way and a purpose to use it again hopefully, until that time i still keep my shopping list on and going for small portable mounts, i stopped imaging because of AZ-GT6 weight assembled, and hopefully a small mount will get me back, and solar is easy to do in my area, seeing is nice, there is also CaK which wasn't included in this topic so i won't talk about it, i am super happy getting Lunt CaK, so that part is done also, only to find a suitable scope and camera for full disk and close up with proper sampling, i am still working on that.

[Ojaigsguy]

My new Baader Mark II 2" Cool-Ceramic Safety Herschel Prism (Photographic) arrived today ;-) I did the unbox, read the manual and readied it for mounting.  Hauled out my Takahashi TSA 120 with feather touch focuser, mounted on a ASI AM5 harmonic drive mount. Everything fit, removed the lens cap and I was blown away the detail.  Amazing.  The field of light is green, which is weird, but it was crystal clear. The mount tracked perfectly.  I used a Tan 27mm, then a Televue 35mm panoptic with a 2x Barlow.  Outstanding set up for visual observations of the sun.  Now I'll have to figure how to set the imaging train.  Maybe I'll get lucky.  I think I might be a DayStar guy henceforth.

[TareqPhoto]

My new Baader Mark II 2" Cool-Ceramic Safety Herschel Prism (Photographic) arrived today ;-) I did the unbox, read the manual and readied it for mounting.  Hauled out my Takahashi TSA 120 with feather touch focuser, mounted on a ASI AM5 harmonic drive mount. Everything fit, removed the lens cap and I was blown away the detail.  Amazing.  The field of light is green, which is weird, but it was crystal clear. The mount tracked perfectly.  I used a Tan 27mm, then a Televue 35mm panoptic with a 2x Barlow.  Outstanding set up for visual observations of the sun.  Now I'll have to figure how to set the imaging train.  Maybe I'll get lucky.  I think I might be a DayStar guy henceforth.

The green is because it has the Continuum filter which is green, if you removed it then i think you will see another color, but if you imaging with a mono camera then you will get mono result anyway.

[gnowellsct]

The green is because it has the Continuum filter which is green, if you removed it then i think you will see another color, but if you imaging with a mono camera then you will get mono result anyway.

I find the green refreshing. Particularly since the view in H alpha is dominated by reds and oranges.

[TareqPhoto]

I find the green refreshing. Particularly since the view in H alpha is dominated by reds and oranges.

Yes yes yes, as visual of course, but i was just refereeing to imaging, with mono anything is colorless, i mean the sun is white or gray, so i believe for CaK it is Violet [or purple] nearly blue?

[lajoswinkler]

Yes yes yes, as visual of course, but i was just refereeing to imaging, with mono anything is colorless, i mean the sun is white or gray, so i believe for CaK it is Violet [or purple] nearly blue?

Borderline between violet light and ultraviolet radiation. Some people see it as very deep violet (of course, lightness depends on intensity), some don't, but for all of them it's difficult to figure out details because there's as lot of dispersion in the eye, plus cone cells aren't good at responding to it. When you see calcium K-line images in blue, that's standard false colorization marking this band.

 

Such dimness might push someone curious and unaware of the danger to look into Sun directly through the filter and that would be VERY dangerous, especially if the telescope aperture isn't shielded. Pupil wouldn't contract, there would be hardly any pain and blink reflex, so exposure could last for longer than a blink. Enough to really wreck the retina.

Similar can happen with longpass infrared filters, except with them it would be more protein coagulation and more pain, with less clean breaking of chemical bonds.

Edited by lajoswinkler, 07 November 2024 - 03:21 PM.

[TareqPhoto]

Borderline between violet light and ultraviolet radiation. Some people see it as very deep violet (of course, lightness depends on intensity), some don't, but for all of them it's difficult to figure out details because there's as lot of dispersion in the eye, plus cone cells aren't good at responding to it. When you see calcium K-line images in blue, that's standard false colorization marking this band.

 

Such dimness might push someone curious and unaware of the danger to look into Sun directly through the filter and that would be VERY dangerous, especially if the telescope aperture isn't shielded. Pupil wouldn't contract, there would be hardly any pain and blink reflex, so exposure could last for longer than a blink. Enough to really wreck the retina.

Similar can happen with longpass infrared filters, except with them it would be more protein coagulation and more pain, with less clean breaking of chemical bonds.

That is why there are always warnings alongside when going for anything solar, be it visual or imaging, so i didn't risk it yet for visual, but even for imaging although i care much more about my eyes then optics, i also don't want to risk them after i bought them for prices, i think i will only go visually with Ha and WL, no need to do it with CaK or Magnesium or even IR.

[Helen P]

Well during outreach one person commented that the scopes were obviously showing fake images as one was green and the other red....

[lajoswinkler]

That is why there are always warnings alongside when going for anything solar, be it visual or imaging, so i didn't risk it yet for visual, but even for imaging although i care much more about my eyes then optics, i also don't want to risk them after i bought them for prices, i think i will only go visually with Ha and WL, no need to do it with CaK or Magnesium or even IR.

If you shield the aperture with an appropriate neutral density filter such as Baader's astrosolar OD 5.0, there is no danger from adding a calcium K-line filter on the ocular lens and having a look. Those photons are already hitting your eye when there is neutral density filter only. CaK merely rejects all other bands and you get to see these deep violets without all others getting in the way. However, it is unlikely you'll see a satisfactory image no matter how well you adjust the focus.

[lajoswinkler]

Well during outreach one person commented that the scopes were obviously showing fake images as one was green and the other red....

Yes, that would be a Homo flatard vulgaris.

[TareqPhoto]

If you shield the aperture with an appropriate neutral density filter such as Baader's astrosolar OD 5.0, there is no danger from adding a calcium K-line filter on the ocular lens and having a look. Those photons are already hitting your eye when there is neutral density filter only. CaK merely rejects all other bands and you get to see these deep violets without all others getting in the way. However, it is unlikely you'll see a satisfactory image no matter how well you adjust the focus.

[gnowellsct]

Yes yes yes, as visual of course, but i was just refereeing to imaging, with mono anything is colorless, i mean the sun is white or gray, so i believe for CaK it is Violet [or purple] nearly blue?

I have been told that the calcium bandwidth isn't particularly rewarding for visual. Works better for cameras. If it was a good visual option I would have sprung for one. But it has been a while since I made inquiry I am hazy on the details. Greg N

[TareqPhoto]

I have been told that the calcium bandwidth isn't particularly rewarding for visual. Works better for cameras. If it was a good visual option I would have sprung for one. But it has been a while since I made inquiry I am hazy on the details. Greg N

Ok, for me when i read IR or UV or CaK i don't bother for visual.