10 replies to this topic

[bignerdguy]

If you have ever had a question about astrophysics but don't know who to ask, try this NASA site:

 

https://imagine.gsfc...stro/index.html

 

You can pose a question to an astrophysicist here and they will answer you!  Cool!

 

Just don't expect them to do your homework for you! 

[imtl]

Well, I want to know who is providing the answers. I got standards.

[StupendousMan]

You can just ask here.  Several of us are astrophysicists.

 

(I only call myself one when I'm on a plane and don't want to talk to my neighbor; the word "astrophysicist" seems to shut many people down.  When I'm feeling more friendly, which is most of the time, I say I'm an "astronomer" -- which almost always starts a long and fun conversation)

[bignerdguy]

Ok then here was the question i just posed to the link:

 

With Black holes being so powerful that not even light can escape and it retains everything ever dumped into it, what about quantum entangled particles, could they transmit data out of a blackhole? Say if one was beyond the event horizon and one was outside of it. If so how would that work?

[rfcooley]

If you have ever had a question about astrophysics but don't know who to ask, try this NASA site:

 

https://imagine.gsfc...stro/index.html

 

You can pose a question to an astrophysicist here and they will answer you!  Cool!

 

Just don't expect them to do your homework for you! 

 

 

You can just ask here.  Several of us are astrophysicists.

 

(I only call myself one when I'm on a plane and don't want to talk to my neighbor; the word "astrophysicist" seems to shut many people down.  When I'm feeling more friendly, which is most of the time, I say I'm an "astronomer" -- which almost always starts a long and fun conversation)

I'll do something similar. Someone asks me what I do I tell them I'm an Anthropological Theologian. (Actually that was my major for my Thd) I couldn't do the math for most sciences, failed algebra 3 times in college before I finally passed. What is Anthropological Theology you ask? Think of it as comparative religion on steroids. We study how man has related to his Deities through out his history. How this relationship figures into mans developmental trajectory and how his mores, ethic and values affect his advancements. We don't explain how the heavens work but how it is achieved or realized through Hope and Faith that there is something more, something we don't know. Without Hope or Faith we find ourselves condemned to a meaningless life and lose the desire to wonder and explore questions. This ability is why we advance, without it we decline. The OP clearly demonstrates the wonder of this ability Whether he has faith in a Deity or in science or both he demonstrates some kind of faith, some kind of yearning for knowledge, something that must be beyond that we want to know. 

 

By now I am wondering if you fell asleep or quickly clicked away from some religious nut. Taking flight is the customary response of most individuals  when this comes up. I take Anthropological Theology one step further than most of my peers. I want to know how the heavens work and what we can learn from this marvelous cosmos in which we exist.  It has it's dangers and it's remarkable processes. All for us to explore so long has we don't lose the wonder.

 

Clear Skies, Never Lose the Wonder,

 

RF

[bignerdguy]

I'll do something similar. Someone asks me what I do I tell them I'm an Anthropological Theologian. (Actually that was my major for my Thd) I couldn't do the math for most sciences, failed algebra 3 times in college before I finally passed. What is Anthropological Theology you ask? Think of it as comparative religion on steroids. We study how man has related to his Deities through out his history. How this relationship figures into mans developmental trajectory and how his mores, ethic and values affect his advancements. We don't explain how the heavens work but how it is achieved or realized through Hope and Faith that there is something more, something we don't know. Without Hope or Faith we find ourselves condemned to a meaningless life and lose the desire to wonder and explore questions. This ability is why we advance, without it we decline. The OP clearly demonstrates the wonder of this ability Whether he has faith in a Deity or in science or both he demonstrates some kind of faith, some kind of yearning for knowledge, something that must be beyond that we want to know. 

 

By now I am wondering if you fell asleep or quickly clicked away from some religious nut. Taking flight is the customary response of most individuals  when this comes up. I take Anthropological Theology one step further than most of my peers. I want to know how the heavens work and what we can learn from this marvelous cosmos in which we exist.  It has it's dangers and it's remarkable processes. All for us to explore so long has we don't lose the wonder.

 

Clear Skies, Never Lose the Wonder,

 

RF

Well it is said that science is man's attempt to understand Gods works so sounds like a good area of study to me. :-)

 

"I want to know how the heavens work and what we can learn from this marvelous cosmos in which we exist."

 

Me Too!

 

Clear Skies and clean Glass!

[Bubbagumps]

Answering those types of questions. How the Universe works. Nothing more or less. 

 

I'll do something similar. Someone asks me what I do I tell them I'm an Anthropological Theologian. (Actually that was my major for my Thd) I couldn't do the math for most sciences, failed algebra 3 times in college before I finally passed. What is Anthropological Theology you ask? Think of it as comparative religion on steroids. We study how man has related to his Deities through out his history. How this relationship figures into mans developmental trajectory and how his mores, ethic and values affect his advancements. We don't explain how the heavens work but how it is achieved or realized through Hope and Faith that there is something more, something we don't know. Without Hope or Faith we find ourselves condemned to a meaningless life and lose the desire to wonder and explore questions. This ability is why we advance, without it we decline. The OP clearly demonstrates the wonder of this ability Whether he has faith in a Deity or in science or both he demonstrates some kind of faith, some kind of yearning for knowledge, something that must be beyond that we want to know. 

 

By now I am wondering if you fell asleep or quickly clicked away from some religious nut. Taking flight is the customary response of most individuals  when this comes up. I take Anthropological Theology one step further than most of my peers. I want to know how the heavens work and what we can learn from this marvelous cosmos in which we exist.  It has it's dangers and it's remarkable processes. All for us to explore so long has we don't lose the wonder.

 

Clear Skies, Never Lose the Wonder,

 

RF

It's not about people taking flight from the questions. It's simply a matter of the topic usually being out of scope when it comes up in the context of a matter-of-fact scientific discussion.  

 

Physical scientists are not inquiring as to the meaning and purpose of existence. They are concerned with discovering how the universe works on a fundamental just like an auto mechanic is only concerned with the operation of the mechanical parts of an engine.  The mechanic isn't there to ponder why the engine exists or what purpose it has in the lives of the owner. That's not an insult or a disparaging position towards such questions. They simply have nothing to do with the daily job of a Physicist.  These are important questions. But to a physicist working on a model for stellar formation or a theory of quantum gravity, they are completely irrelevant, and should be.  On the job, it's strictly show me the data, show me the facts, then I will draw a conclusion about the physics of the situation. 

[StupendousMan]

Ok then here was the question i just posed to the link:

With Black holes being so powerful that not even light can escape and it retains everything ever dumped into it, what about quantum entangled particles, could they transmit data out of a blackhole? Say if one was beyond the event horizon and one was outside of it. If so how would that work?

[StupendousMan]

Let's review how entangled particles work: I can use some particular process to create a pair of particles, with some connected property; say, polarization. One is polarized horizontally, the other vertically. Each particle flies off in opposite directions after I create them.


The thing about entangled particles is that neither particle's state is well defined UNTIL someone measures the state of one. At that point, no matter how far away the other is, its state is set to the opposite of the one which was just measured.

The trouble with most schemes involving entangled particles is that they assume the creator has more knowledge or capability than he actually does. Suppose I want to send you a message about the weather at my location: horizontal polarization means "sunny", vertical means "cloudy." It's clear today, so one option is just to create a single ordinary photon, horizontal polarization, and send it in your direction. That message will travel at the speed of light. Fine.

Now, I could create a pair of entangled particles, but how does that help? One goes flying towards you - I don't know its state. One flies in the opposite direction; I don't know its state, either. How can we use this pair of photons to convey a message to you? I don't know.


The same goes for a situation involving a black hole. As I am falling into the black hole in my spaceship, I create a pair of entangled particles. I don't know their polarizations. As my ship crosses the event horizon, one particle shoots out and escapes, the other falls in with me. Two hours later, the escaping particle reaches you. You measure it to have horizontal polarization. What can you conclude?

I think you can conclude only that I created a particle just before I fell into the black hole. But that's all. It's the same conclusion you could draw if I had sent an ordinary, non-entangled particle. The weird entangling property is weird and sounds cool, but doesn't actually help.


But I'm not really a physicist; I am better at dealing with astronomy, which is what I do in my work.

[bignerdguy]

Let's review how entangled particles work: I can use some particular process to create a pair of particles, with some connected property; say, polarization. One is polarized horizontally, the other vertically. Each particle flies off in opposite directions after I create them.


The thing about entangled particles is that neither particle's state is well defined UNTIL someone measures the state of one. At that point, no matter how far away the other is, its state is set to the opposite of the one which was just measured.

The trouble with most schemes involving entangled particles is that they assume the creator has more knowledge or capability than he actually does. Suppose I want to send you a message about the weather at my location: horizontal polarization means "sunny", vertical means "cloudy." It's clear today, so one option is just to create a single ordinary photon, horizontal polarization, and send it in your direction. That message will travel at the speed of light. Fine.

Now, I could create a pair of entangled particles, but how does that help? One goes flying towards you - I don't know its state. One flies in the opposite direction; I don't know its state, either. How can we use this pair of photons to convey a message to you? I don't know.


The same goes for a situation involving a black hole. As I am falling into the black hole in my spaceship, I create a pair of entangled particles. I don't know their polarizations. As my ship crosses the event horizon, one particle shoots out and escapes, the other falls in with me. Two hours later, the escaping particle reaches you. You measure it to have horizontal polarization. What can you conclude?

I think you can conclude only that I created a particle just before I fell into the black hole. But that's all. It's the same conclusion you could draw if I had sent an ordinary, non-entangled particle. The weird entangling property is weird and sounds cool, but doesn't actually help.


But I'm not really a physicist; I am better at dealing with astronomy, which is what I do in my work.

 

Ok so lets assume for a moment that two particles were created.  One was left with an observer outside the blackhole and one was taken by a traveler into the blackhole.  Both had agreed ahead of time what the different states would mean.  My question is can Entangled particles communicate if one is inside the event horizon and one is outside?   Need a Physicist to answer this i guess.

[Bubbagumps]

Communication is not taking place between entangled particles. When two particles are entangled and you measure an observable for one of the particles, there is no direct causal communication that informs the second particle of the result of the measurement. It is the wavefunctions for both particles that are entangled. The particles themselves are not physically entangled or somehow in touch with each other.  

 

Think of entanglement in terms of conservation laws and it sounds a little less weird. If an energetic process spontaneously creates two electrons where none existed before, the total angular momentum must be zero as long as the angular momentum of a system was zero prior to the event. That means that you cannot observe both electrons to be both spin up or spin down. One has to be spin up and the other spin down to conserve angular momentum. You just have no information as to which one is spin up or down. The only information you have comes from the wavefunctions for the particles and a wavefunction is a superposition of all possible states.

 

That means exactly what it implies -- physically, it makes no sense to say that either particle is spin up or spin down until you take a measurement.  You could measure spin up or spin down with equal probability. Flip a coin. There is no hidden information. It is a completely random outcome. And it doesn't matter where you take the measurements. It could be in your garage, your bathroom, or inside the event horizon of a black hole. When the spin is measured for one particle, the possible measurement of spin for the other particle is then known by the person taking the measurement with complete certainty, since it must be the opposite spin. However, that is totally different from actually measuring the Spin of the other particle. It simply gives you certain knowledge of what the Spin of that second particle would be if you were to measure it. The entangled wavefunction has collapsed once you take a measurement for one of the particles. The uncertainty regarding the possible Spin states of each electron no longer exists.