82 replies to this topic

[Michael Covington]

Those of us who belong to PixInsight Forum got a memo today explaining that, among other things, the PixInsight Forum does not permit mention of any competing products, not even third-party PixInsight add-ons.

That seems restrictive, until you consider:

- They are a commercial venture, and that is their support forum; it's not for supporting anything that's not theirs.  It is not an amateur forum like Cloudy Nights.  [I'm consulting for a financial software company right now, and we'd be puzzled if anyone used our support system to ask questions or make assertions about somebody else's product.]

- It would be bad if their forum were used to disparage a competing product.  Companies don't do that.  It could even provoke a lawsuit.  [Bear in mind they are not under American or British law -- they are in Spain, where traditions are different, I don't know exactly how.]

- It's also not desirable for their forum to be used to promote a competing product.  They indicate that if this were permitted, there would be an unlimited amount of it, and PixInsight's own forum would turn into advertising for competitors.

- Perhaps most importantly (I suppose), when they read their own forum they want to see actual feedback about their own product, not chit-chat about astrophotography in general.

So... I understand all this.  PixInsight is a commercial product.  Lots of very interesting technical work is going on.  They want us to use forums like Cloudy Nights for discussions that are not PixInsight-specific.  And that's fair enough!  

I thank the PixInsight team for bringing us such a powerful product.  It's not free, it's not cheap, but it's what I rely on.
 

Edited by Michael Covington, 13 November 2024 - 10:11 PM.

[VMan]

Agreed. I guess the only thing I would say is that I find PI inexpensive for what I am getting, certainly compared to the equipment I've purchased, and especially considering the support they give. I can only imagine how annoying it must be to answer newbie questions like mine, yet they always have given me detailed help that leads to a solution.

[Michael Covington]

The essence of it is, the PI Forum isn't trying to do what Cloudy Nights does.   After posting this, I saw there's another thread about this, in which several people opined that the PI Forum was doomed to irrelevance.  It's not; it's just that it's a product forum, not a hobby forum.

(When I got the memo I first thought I'd done something wrong, but I checked, and the only thing I've posted there in a long time has been a wish list of minor features and changes to PixInsight itself, with no mention of anything else.)

Edited by Michael Covington, 13 November 2024 - 10:40 PM.

[archiebald]

I'm not a PI user, but I have bee frequently considering it on and off for a while now.

 

A few things I have noticed recently (which has pushed my own PI buying decision back even further);

1. Siril is soon launching V1.4 with some keenly awaited features. (free)
2. GraXpert is offering expanded capabilities (that will integrate into Siril 1.4) (free)
3. Seti Astro Editing Suite was recently released in a sort of breakaway from PI.  (free)

Yes I know that these free options aren't able to approach anything near the level of PI, but many people do find them good enough when used in conjunction with Gimp, Photoshop or other final edit software.

 

It's only speculation on my part, but could this recently sent message be an indication that they are seeing reduced sales and see the need to close ranks a little?  The huge price hike at the beginning of 2024 may not have helped matters either. (certainly pushed me away)

[fmeschia]

The essence of it is, the PI Forum isn't trying to do what Cloudy Nights does.   After posting this, I saw there's another thread about this, in which several people opined that the PI Forum was doomed to irrelevance.  It's not; it's just that it's a product forum, not a hobby forum.

Given that I’m being quoted, I’d like to clarify: irrelevant for the stated goals of the forum (support), not for the general astroimaging community. Once the forum is sanitized of the users who can provide ideas, maybe by comparison, and given it’s already not very useful from the bug reporting perspective (“cannot replicate”, anyone?), I don’t see why someone would want to stick around and help others there.

[pfile]

Given that I’m being quoted, I’d like to clarify: irrelevant for the stated goals of the forum (support), not for the general astroimaging community. Once the forum is sanitized of the users who can provide ideas, maybe by comparison, and given it’s already not very useful from the bug reporting perspective (“cannot replicate”, anyone?), I don’t see why someone would want to stick around and help others there.

yeah, i'm seriously considering just giving up on the PI forum.

[ngc2218]

People buy gear worth thousands or tens of thousands then suddenly PI or any other paid software is just too expensive. Then they take the freeware path with buggy software and flood the forums.

[andysea]

I find the pi forum completely useless, I never use it.

[VMan]

Interesting. Perhaps I have just been lucky on the PI forum so far. I've been stuck a few times and was not able to get an answer anywhere else. I only see/use the PI forum as a place to reach out to support. I was very pleased and surprised when an actual developer chipped in. Being a developer of a commercial product myself I can tell you this is very rare. In fact I'm just about the only engineer I know that likes interacting with customers on occasion   ...but I do indeed bail on irreproducible issues... if I don't have the data or steps to see the problem on my own system then it's a waste of everyone's time for me to even try... 

[Old Photons]

I find the pi forum completely useless, I never use it.

In addition to that, I find it very unfriendly.  

[Michael Covington]

Given that I’m being quoted, I’d like to clarify: irrelevant for the stated goals of the forum (support), not for the general astroimaging community. Once the forum is sanitized of the users who can provide ideas, maybe by comparison, and given it’s already not very useful from the bug reporting perspective (“cannot replicate”, anyone?), I don’t see why someone would want to stick around and help others there.

You have a point.  They are excluding discussion that they themselves would benefit from.

My goal was to explain their thinking, not necessarily to strongly support it.

Edited by Michael Covington, 14 November 2024 - 08:33 AM.

[sn2006gy]

I think the PixInsight forums are good for what they offer.  The tool has been around forever, and I don't think the developers live in a cave so I'm not sure anything is achieved by suggesting that the forums have to be open to anything and everything or they will fall behind. With thousands of customers and lots of people submitting tools and plugins they can see where people are going with it. 

 

I'm happy we are in peak astrophotography and have choices. 

 

I've seen a LOT more historical community problems here than I've ever seen on the PI forums and i think that's what they don't want to bother with.

 

They don't want moderators spending time moderating non related stuff

They don't want people talking about unrelated tools

 

It's their forum and there are *PLENTY* of places where people can complain... such as here

[WadeH237]

For what it's worth, when I want to read about or discuss image processing and techniques, what others are imaging, astronomy products or the market, etc., I do that here on Cloudy Nights.

 

I do also read the PixInsight forums daily so that I can keep up with new and upcoming releases, read about their future plans, etc.  I also note from the titles what problems people are having, and I follow threads with interesting problems and solutions (even if I'm not having those problems, so that I could potentially help someone else).

 

I have posted a few questions into the PixInsight forum, and have typically received timely and accurate answers.  I never go there for idle conversation, though.

 

I think that this topic, here, is a good summary of how to think about their forum.  In particular, I agree with the suggestion that this does not lead the PixInsight forum to irrelevance.  It keeps it focused, and I am OK with that.  I don't go there for chatter, so I don't want to have to go through lots of posts each day.

[Brian Carter]

Every time I go to the PI forums, I find the same half dozen people posting hostile and unfriendly replies.  If they are so annoyed with questions, perhaps they shouldn't answer them.

 

Needless to say, I think that forum is a waste of internet space.  Why would I ask questions there if people are just going to tell me I'm stupid.  At least at CN people just ignore stupid posts.

[Charlie B]

Agreed. I guess the only thing I would say is that I find PI inexpensive for what I am getting, certainly compared to the equipment I've purchased, and especially considering the support they give. I can only imagine how annoying it must be to answer newbie questions like mine, yet they always have given me detailed help that leads to a solution.

+1 Each time I've had PI issues, the forum has been very responsive and, usually, pointed to my user error or a work around.

 

Regards,

Charlie B

[dswtan]

What I don't understand is that in ALL the online communities that I'm part of (astro, micro, photo, music, etc.), over decades in fact, I don't recall ANY other commercial product forum like the PI one with such a policy position -- and such awkwardness in communicating it.

 

I appreciate this may be a language issue, with PI based in Spain. Maybe it comes across differently to a different culture/language. I'm trying to understand.

 

But I wish they'd embrace the fable of the wind and sun. Try a different approach. Direct emails like this does not endear support.

 

Why not recruit volunteer moderators? More of them then? Structure the PI forums to "contain" general discussion. Redirect such topics to CN or wherever. Rename the topics so it's obvious that non-PI topics are unwelcome rather than general labels like "image processing". Etc.

 

I FULLY support them not wanting to address non-PI things on their Forum. But the tone is awful. For years!

[VMan]

I'm happy we are in peak astrophotography and have choices. 

Are you implying it's all downhill from here?

[ngc2218]

Are you implying it's all downhill from here?

I tariffs are imposed on Chinese stuff (60%?) then yes, it's all downhill cause an 11 inch SCT will be what ? $7-8K? 

Edited by ngc2218, 14 November 2024 - 02:43 PM.

[Michael Covington]

What I don't understand is that in ALL the online communities that I'm part of (astro, micro, photo, music, etc.), over decades in fact, I don't recall ANY other commercial product forum like the PI one with such a policy position -- and such awkwardness in communicating it.

 

I appreciate this may be a language issue, with PI based in Spain. Maybe it comes across differently to a different culture/language. I'm trying to understand.

 

But I wish they'd embrace the fable of the wind and sun. Try a different approach. Direct emails like this does not endear support.

 

Why not recruit volunteer moderators? More of them then? Structure the PI forums to "contain" general discussion. Redirect such topics to CN or wherever. Rename the topics so it's obvious that non-PI topics are unwelcome rather than general labels like "image processing". Etc.

 

I FULLY support them not wanting to address non-PI things on their Forum. But the tone is awful. For years!

I think that's the point.  If they want to run a product-only support forum, there are better ways to convey that to the users.  And milder ways of making it happen.

[dswtan]

I think that's the point.  If they want to run a product-only support forum, there are better ways to convey that to the users.  And milder ways of making it happen.

I guess it could be worse. They could move to Discord!!
 

[KemalOz]

People buy gear worth thousands or tens of thousands then suddenly PI or any other paid software is just too expensive. Then they take the freeware path with buggy software and flood the forums.

One reason is that software doesn't have any resale value. If Pixinsight goes away tomorrow, the license fee is gone forever. Meanwhile a 300 euro equipment will hold some value even if it is no longer made. Maybe even worth more as a result. 

 

 

Every time I go to the PI forums, I find the same half dozen people posting hostile and unfriendly replies.  If they are so annoyed with questions, perhaps they shouldn't answer them.

 

Needless to say, I think that forum is a waste of internet space.  Why would I ask questions there if people are just going to tell me I'm stupid.  At least at CN people just ignore stupid posts.

I had made the mistake of asking a question there once and quickly I was told how a stupid newbie I am for asking such a stupid basic question. 

 

 

Those of us who belong to PixInsight Forum got a memo today explaining that, among other things, the PixInsight Forum does not permit mention of any competing products, not even third-party PixInsight add-ons.

That seems restrictive, until you consider:

- They are a commercial venture, and that is their support forum; it's not for supporting anything that's not theirs.  It is not an amateur forum like Cloudy Nights.  [I'm consulting for a financial software company right now, and we'd be puzzled if anyone used our support system to ask questions or make assertions about somebody else's product.]

- It would be bad if their forum were used to disparage a competing product.  Companies don't do that.  It could even provoke a lawsuit.  [Bear in mind they are not under American or British law -- they are in Spain, where traditions are different, I don't know exactly how.]

- It's also not desirable for their forum to be used to promote a competing product.  They indicate that if this were permitted, there would be an unlimited amount of it, and PixInsight's own forum would turn into advertising for competitors.

- Perhaps most importantly (I suppose), when they read their own forum they want to see actual feedback about their own product, not chit-chat about astrophotography in general.

So... I understand all this.  PixInsight is a commercial product.  Lots of very interesting technical work is going on.  They want us to use forums like Cloudy Nights for discussions that are not PixInsight-specific.  And that's fair enough!  

I thank the PixInsight team for bringing us such a powerful product.  It's not free, it's not cheap, but it's what I rely on.
 

 

Competition is good for the customer and bad for Pixinsight. They have basically been a monopoly for more than a decade now, of course they don't like the change in the market. I wouldn't either.

But they are not gonna do well against the competition with this attitude. They have a support forum because they want members to solve each others' problem so that they don't have to answer every single question themselves. Basically outsourcing the support job to their customers. Though they don't want too much free discussions because that could cause them to lose market share...

As a result the forum is dead other than a few people whose main duty is to be mean to newbies. 

 

I know it is not exactly the same thing but could you imagine Astronomics requesting admins to ban topics about other retailers here? what a joke that would be. 

[stargzr66207]

I'm new to PI, (since July) and, although sometimes perplexed  by its Complexity I have to say that the more I use it,  the better I like it.  Price wise I think it's a bargain,  compared to Maxim,  which I used for 10 years. 

Ron Abbott 

[VMan]

I tariffs are imposed on Chinese stuff (60%?) then yes, it's all downhill cause an 11 inch SCT will be what ? $7-8K? 

Curious example, since buying a 12" SCT was one of dumbest hobby-crushing decisions I ever made. I have a hard time believing there are more than a tiny fraction of people living in a climate that can actually benefit from a large SCT. Still, you're right, prices in general would certainly go up.

[pfile]

One reason is that software doesn't have any resale value. If Pixinsight goes away tomorrow, the license fee is gone forever. Meanwhile a 300 euro equipment will hold some value even if it is no longer made. Maybe even worth more as a result. 

 

 

I had made the mistake of asking a question there once and quickly I was told how a stupid newbie I am for asking such a stupid basic question. 

 

 

 

Competition is good for the customer and bad for Pixinsight. They have basically been a monopoly for more than a decade now, of course they don't like the change in the market. I wouldn't either.

But they are not gonna do well against the competition with this attitude. They have a support forum because they want members to solve each others' problem so that they don't have to answer every single question themselves. Basically outsourcing the support job to their customers. Though they don't want too much free discussions because that could cause them to lose market share...

As a result the forum is dead other than a few people whose main duty is to be mean to newbies. 

 

I know it is not exactly the same thing but could you imagine Astronomics requesting admins to ban topics about other retailers here? what a joke that would be. 

well i hope you aren't referring to me, because i genuinely try to help people no matter their level. before the appearance of two other regulars i was probably the only person consistently answering questions. why? i don't know. i'm treated the same way as everyone else by juan and company.

 

the PI founders aren't super pragmatic. dogmatic is a better description. they have always been controversial. they started off by publishing this manifesto declaring themselves the "documentary school of astrophotography", sort of "only we know how to do this right and everyone else is just painting." that did peeve a lot of people off at the time. if you study what happened with NSG you can see what happens when some "outsider" invents something better that touches on PI's core competency. without mentioning what he's talking about, juan spends a lot of time on that subject in that message that went out. it's not pretty and that type of defensive attitude directly lead to all these prohibitions about what can and cant be said in their forum.

 

rob

[gmiller123456]

Those of us who belong to PixInsight Forum got a memo today explaining that, among other things, the PixInsight Forum does not permit mention of any competing products, not even third-party PixInsight add-ons.

That seems restrictive, until you consider:

I really don't understand what possesses people to make excuses for other corporations. They are big boys with their own keyboards and more than capable of explaining their rational.