Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Binocular 3x21 design - wide, any use?

ATM Binoculars DSO Eyepieces Observing Visual Video Astronomy Optics
  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 patta

patta

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 87
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2018
  • Loc: Stavanger (town of Eternal Rain II), Norway

Posted 14 November 2024 - 10:33 AM

Hello

 

I'm working at the optical design of a binocular with wide FOV, 15°-20°.

The key component is the short-but-wide objective; eyepiece will follow.

 

Questions:

 

1) Is there any use case / market for low magnification, wide field binoculars?

The Visionking 5x25 seems the only one currently produced with very wide FOV.

There were some old wide models,  like the reverse-porro designs  5x25 Bushnell and 4x22 Dowling & Rowe, but they've been discontinued, which means poor sales.

Other 4x in production, like Pentax 4x20 and Nikon 4x10, have very narrow FOV.

The "Ultrawide" Porros raging in the 1980s, were yes wide but mostly 8x-7x.

 

 

2) Which combination of magnification / exit pupil / AFOV is most desirable?

I'm oriented toward 60° eyepiece AFOV, because wider it becomes difficult, either not sharp, or short eye relief, otherwise it leads to expensive monsters like the Nikon WX.

 

 

Here some examples of feasible models:

 

4x25 Roof

FOV 15°, AFOV 60°, exit pupil 5 mm

Roof prism; a remake (same overall size) of the Visionking 5x25, with same TFOV, narrower AFOV, hopefully cleaner image and similar price.

 

4x20 Porro

FOV 15°, AFOV 60°, exit pupil 5 mm

Porro prism, good quality optics, chassis will be like the recent 6.5x32 APM/KUO

 

3x21  Big

FOV 20°, AFOV 60°, exit pupil 7 mm

It needs massive prisms, like Sard 6x42 or other old ultrawides

 

3x9 Roof

FOV 20°, AFOV 60°, exit pupil 3mm

small lightweight roof binocular, medium-low cost

Same for a 4x12 with 15° FOV

 

3x21 Finderscope

FOV 15°, AFOV 45°, exit pupil 7mm

Monocular or finderscope with Roof prism, with narrow view but large exit pupil and long eye relief - almost like a riflescope

The smaller FOV allows for prism of reasonable size

 

 

 

 

Vote your favorite!

It may become reality.


Edited by patta, 14 November 2024 - 10:42 AM.


#2 JoeFaz

JoeFaz

    Messenger

  • -----
  • Posts: 496
  • Joined: 05 Jun 2023
  • Loc: Western Maryland

Posted 14 November 2024 - 10:47 AM

Google "constellation binoculars." There are a number out there of Galilean design - usually 2-3x and 40-50ish objectives.


  • patta likes this

#3 Terra Nova

Terra Nova

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 32,137
  • Joined: 29 May 2012
  • Loc: Kentucky, just south of the Ohio River

Posted 14 November 2024 - 11:02 AM

I had the 5x25. It was fun, but the novelty wore off and I went back to my trusty old Binolux 7x35 Extra Wide Field binocular (11°) with it’s huge eye-lenses. Of your list, the 4x25 sounds interesting.


  • Albie and patta like this

#4 patta

patta

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 87
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2018
  • Loc: Stavanger (town of Eternal Rain II), Norway

Posted 14 November 2024 - 11:04 AM

Google "constellation binoculars." There are a number out there of Galilean design - usually 2-3x and 40-50ish objectives.

Prisms! I forgot to mention... the work is for prism binoculars

If a Galilean design at 3x is "good enough" then the (more expensive) 3x21 prismatic becomes silly...

 

There are 3x50 Galileian f.ex by Kasai trading, with FOV 17°, but I haven't tried them.

I've tried only the 2x Galilean and work ok.


Edited by patta, 14 November 2024 - 11:10 AM.


#5 Terra Nova

Terra Nova

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 32,137
  • Joined: 29 May 2012
  • Loc: Kentucky, just south of the Ohio River

Posted 14 November 2024 - 11:10 AM

I have never had ANY interest in acquiring an opera glass Galilean binocular. None what so ever!


  • patta likes this

#6 deSitter

deSitter

    Still in Old School

  • *****
  • Posts: 20,109
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2004

Posted 14 November 2024 - 11:48 AM

Galilean telescopes have absurdly low field of view because there are no eyepieces as such. This hardly matters at the opera.

 

Yes a 3x binocular with particular care to use 65 degree high eye relief eyepieces would be great to have, particularly at sporting events. 20mm objectives is a good choice but even 15mm would give a 5mm exit pupil.

 

The eyepieces would necessarily be rather complex because of the combination of low power with a small usable focal plane.

 

-drl


Edited by deSitter, 14 November 2024 - 11:51 AM.

  • patta likes this

#7 ihf

ihf

    Gemini

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,394
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2019
  • Loc: California, USA

Posted 14 November 2024 - 12:19 PM

Such binoculars are somewhat popular in Asia. Rogan Yue has built Spacewalking Binoculars that use prisms. Mr. Masumoto has recently built a Superwide Zoom Binocular using his EMS system/mirrors (archive). Both designs have in common that there is no space between objectives and eyepieces, hence the prism/EMS is placed first in front of the objective.

 

I think there is interest in these binos. The main issues are that the prisms/EMS systems tend to be expensive, and the lenses used and typically rare.

 

post-437923-0-25088900-1711179065.jpg


Edited by ihf, 14 November 2024 - 12:21 PM.


#8 deSitter

deSitter

    Still in Old School

  • *****
  • Posts: 20,109
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2004

Posted 14 November 2024 - 12:24 PM

Such binoculars are somewhat popular in Asia. Rogan Yue has built Spacewalking Binoculars that use prisms. Mr. Masumoto has recently built a Superwide Zoom Binocular using his EMS system/mirrors (archive). Both designs have in common that there is no space between objectives and eyepieces, hence the prism/EMS is placed first in front of the objective.

 

I think there is interest in these binos. The main issues are that the prisms/EMS systems tend to be expensive, and the lenses used and typically rare.

 

post-437923-0-25088900-1711179065.jpg

Well that completely defeats the idea and is guffaw-worthy.

 

You want something very small and light to supplement human vision, not some monster from the deep with no reason to exist.

 

-drl


  • patta likes this

#9 ihf

ihf

    Gemini

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,394
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2019
  • Loc: California, USA

Posted 14 November 2024 - 12:40 PM

You want something very small and light to supplement human vision, not some monster from the deep with no reason to exist.

Look, we are all practicing hedonists here. People tend to get precisely what they want.


  • Albie, jcastarz, steveincolo and 1 other like this

#10 Astronoob76

Astronoob76

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,732
  • Joined: 01 Sep 2021

Posted 14 November 2024 - 12:58 PM

I have never had ANY interest in acquiring an opera glass Galilean binocular. None what so ever!

One use case they're actually great at, is watching fireworks. Apart from that - I have too much light pollution basically. I still got the 2x54 Orion though. I might be under darker skies sometimes, that's when I'll take them with me.
  • steveincolo likes this

#11 DVexile

DVexile

    Messenger

  • *****
  • Posts: 449
  • Joined: 17 Mar 2016
  • Loc: Baltimore, MD

Posted 14 November 2024 - 01:03 PM

The 2x54 SkyRover/Orion Galilean binoculars are delightful and nothing at all like an opera glass, despite being a Galilean design. I don't have the foggiest idea if a similar wide field design could work at 3x or 4x though.

I feel as if field curvature is potentially a huge issue though. The Vision King are a nightmare in the regard. The market is largely old people with limited accommodation. I'm down to about two diopters these days and since I suspect the design would be driven to short focal but fast objectives it could be a non-starter for me if there is significant field curvature.

But otherwise, a really good wide field 4x would be a really fun binocular. I love my 2x54 and would love the VK 5x25 if it was sharper across the field in my old eyes.
  • steveincolo and patta like this

#12 deSitter

deSitter

    Still in Old School

  • *****
  • Posts: 20,109
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2004

Posted 14 November 2024 - 01:23 PM

The 2x54 SkyRover/Orion Galilean binoculars are delightful and nothing at all like an opera glass, despite being a Galilean design. I don't have the foggiest idea if a similar wide field design could work at 3x or 4x though.

I feel as if field curvature is potentially a huge issue though. The Vision King are a nightmare in the regard. The market is largely old people with limited accommodation. I'm down to about two diopters these days and since I suspect the design would be driven to short focal but fast objectives it could be a non-starter for me if there is significant field curvature.

But otherwise, a really good wide field 4x would be a really fun binocular. I love my 2x54 and would love the VK 5x25 if it was sharper across the field in my old eyes.

Yes to make a 3x bino with nice wide fields that are well corrected, you'd need a complex focal reducer/field flattener I think. But I have many times wished for a 3-5x binocular at football games.

 

-drl


  • patta likes this

#13 steveincolo

steveincolo

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,834
  • Joined: 26 Sep 2017
  • Loc: Boulder, Colorado, US

Posted 14 November 2024 - 01:33 PM

One use case they're actually great at, is watching fireworks. Apart from that - I have too much light pollution basically. I still got the 2x54 Orion though. I might be under darker skies sometimes, that's when I'll take them with me.

They’re useful in my suburban skies, primarily as a spotter for my larger binos. 


  • Astronoob76 likes this

#14 ThomasM

ThomasM

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 912
  • Joined: 19 Apr 2009

Posted 14 November 2024 - 01:39 PM

I  prefer 4x20 or 5x25. I would expect that it is not so easy to get a telecentric objective lens for such a project.


  • patta likes this

#15 patta

patta

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 87
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2018
  • Loc: Stavanger (town of Eternal Rain II), Norway

Posted 14 November 2024 - 01:55 PM

I  prefer 4x20 or 5x25. I would expect that it is not so easy to get a telecentric objective lens for such a project.

Telecentric sorted! That was the trick that prompted this project



#16 GlennLeDrew

GlennLeDrew

    James Webb Space Telescope

  • *****
  • Posts: 16,260
  • Joined: 17 Jun 2008
  • Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Posted 14 November 2024 - 01:57 PM

Back in the late 90s Bushnell put out an Xtra-Wide 4X21 with a 17° field. It used one prism and two mirrors to effect the Porro I erector.


  • Grimnir, Terra Nova and patta like this

#17 patta

patta

    Explorer 1

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 87
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2018
  • Loc: Stavanger (town of Eternal Rain II), Norway

Posted 14 November 2024 - 02:04 PM

Such binoculars are somewhat popular in Asia. Rogan Yue has built Spacewalking Binoculars that use prisms. Mr. Masumoto has recently built a Superwide Zoom Binocular using his EMS system/mirrors (archive). Both designs have in common that there is no space between objectives and eyepieces, hence the prism/EMS is placed first in front of the objective.

 

I think there is interest in these binos. The main issues are that the prisms/EMS systems tend to be expensive, and the lenses used and typically rare.

 

 

Thanks for those links, the Spacewalk and Matsumoto stuff are beautiful!

Here I'm more geared toward a "conventional" binocular, with internal prisms and reasonable cost (not two Ethos eyepieces..)

 

The "poor man wide scope" made with 50mm camera lens + eyepiece is where I started too some years ago.

Prism in front as the Spacewalk, that is very interesting.

The Matsumoto EMS mirrrors are also a good idea because they erect the image with shorter light path than Porro prisms - good for wide angle and fast f/#


  • ihf likes this

#18 ihf

ihf

    Gemini

  • *****
  • Posts: 3,394
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2019
  • Loc: California, USA

Posted 14 November 2024 - 11:37 PM

Somehow I missed this recent update to the Spacewalking Binoculars.


  • JoeFaz likes this

#19 Enkidu

Enkidu

    Vostok 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 131
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2017
  • Loc: EU

Posted 15 November 2024 - 09:50 AM

I outlined a 3x21 RA bino from available parts here. I enjoy my Kasai 3x50s.


  • patta likes this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: ATM, Binoculars, DSO, Eyepieces, Observing, Visual, Video Astronomy, Optics



Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics