23 replies to this topic

[12BH7]

I've been trying to finish a list of OC in Lacerta. Surprisingly enough, it's been more difficult that I thought it would be. Even using DSS images and maps I'm still having a hard time confirming a clusters. The DSS images all show a blanket of stars with no identifiable pattern to draw from. 

 

So far the only two clusters I have confirmed are (notes):

NGC 7243 big and nice with no colored stars

NGC 7209 100+ stars with many blue stars

The rest I still have listed as not confirmed.

 

Is it better to use a refractor in this area? Do many of you use refractors for this type of observing? I'm using a 12" SCT and the FOV is a bit on the narrow side. But some of these clusters are still on the small side. 

[Sofee12]

Greetings.  Ironically, one of my last sketches was of NGC 7245 and King 9 (together).  Besides those and the 2 you already confirmed, I've also sketched NGC 7296.  Yes, NGC 7245 and NGC 7296 are small and required 300X.  And only a couple cluster stars were visible in each.  The bulk of the clusters appear as a glow of the unresolved stars.  So those 2 aren't as outstanding as NGC 7243 and NGC 7209.  I haven't tracked down the couple IC clusters yet.  BTW, I used a 12" Orion Skyquest Dob.  So we're basically in the same aperture range.  The views should be similar.  I use a low power wide field eyepiece (60X) and the Intelliscope DSC's to get me in the area, match up the star field with Sky Safari Pro, then star hop (if necessary) to the objects.

 

I hope this helps.  I'm sure you'll track those clusters down.  They're not obvious or impressive, but you'll get there.  Good luck.

[Refractor6]

  Binoculars and refractors on the open clusters in Lacerta with my dark skies. My 6"  refractor does the best job at low power on resolving 7209, 7243 and 7296...... this trio are some of my favorite open clusters during summer observing sessions 

[12BH7]

  Binoculars and refractors on the open clusters in Lacerta with my dark skies. My 6"  refractor does the best job at low power on resolving 7209, 7243 and 7296...... this trio are some of my favorite open clusters during summer observing sessions 

I really do need to get a refactor setup going. Just for these occasions. 

[12BH7]

Greetings.  Ironically, one of my last sketches was of NGC 7245 and King 9 (together).  Besides those and the 2 you already confirmed, I've also sketched NGC 7296.  Yes, NGC 7245 and NGC 7296 are small and required 300X.  And only a couple cluster stars were visible in each.  The bulk of the clusters appear as a glow of the unresolved stars.  So those 2 aren't as outstanding as NGC 7243 and NGC 7209.  I haven't tracked down the couple IC clusters yet.  BTW, I used a 12" Orion Skyquest Dob.  So we're basically in the same aperture range.  The views should be similar.  I use a low power wide field eyepiece (60X) and the Intelliscope DSC's to get me in the area, match up the star field with Sky Safari Pro, then star hop (if necessary) to the objects.

 

I hope this helps.  I'm sure you'll track those clusters down.  They're not obvious or impressive, but you'll get there.  Good luck.

I've seen a background "cloud" but to be hones, I wasn't sure if it was me or sky glow???

 

I need the skies to be a bit clearer and maybe augment things with some binoculars.

[havasman]

interstellarum shows northern Lacerta to be well populated with smaller, fainter open clusters from FSR, Be, Str, Al, IC and NGC catalogs. Small Teu39 is in the southern part of the galaxy.

[andreww71]

For years I overlooked open clusters that were beyond the showpiece objects. A few years ago, I received as a gift the Star Clusters book by Archinal and Hynes and dove in deep. Using the data table, I added clusters to my observing list that looked like (on paper anyway) they would be interesting at the eyepiece.

 

Using 18" and 22" scopes I've seen the following clusters in Lacerta:

Berkeley 98

NGC 7209 

NGC 7243 

NGC 7245

NGC 7296

IC 1434 - I noted I had a hard time identifying this in the rich star field so sketched the field and later identified using a POSS image

IC 1442

King 9

 

Andrew

[12BH7]

For years I overlooked open clusters that were beyond the showpiece objects. A few years ago, I received as a gift the Star Clusters book by Archinal and Hynes and dove in deep. Using the data table, I added clusters to my observing list that looked like (on paper anyway) they would be interesting at the eyepiece.

 

Using 18" and 22" scopes I've seen the following clusters in Lacerta:

Berkeley 98

NGC 7209 

NGC 7243 

NGC 7245

NGC 7296

IC 1434 - I noted I had a hard time identifying this in the rich star field so sketched the field and later identified using a POSS image

IC 1442

King 9

 

Andrew

Interesting using an 18". I was considering going in the other direction and buying a 4" refractor. The only thing that did concern me is that some of these clusters are on the faint side. So a 4" might not be of much value for these particular clusters???

[jcj380]

You can go back a page and reset the search parameters if you wish:

 

http://www.virtualco...9.9&order=ra_hr

[12BH7]

You can go back a page and reset the search parameters if you wish:

 

http://www.virtualco...9.9&order=ra_hr

Why I never thought of that I do not know. I've been using this chart generator for quite a while. Plug in the limiting mag of a 4" vs a 12" and see what happens.

[Akarsh Simha]

I'm not much into open clusters, I believe NGC 7243 is one that made an impression on me. Somehow I remembered it for decades. First log entry:

 

2006 October 1: "Bright! Binocular showed a diffuse dim haze & telescope showed a lot of stars. Worth seeing."

(The binocular in this case was a 10×50 and the telescope an 8" f/8)

 

More recently,

 

2023 November 3: "A large cluster of dia ~50' About 25+ stars are superposed on a grainy background of faint stars. Beautiful! Although the cluster is obvious, I took time to confirm the star-field for surety." (25×100 binoculars)

 

The only others I have logged are NGC 7209 and NGC 7296

 

NGC 7296: 2023 Nov 3, 25×100 binocular: "A condensed cometary glow attached to a star that is easy to pick out in the field. Averted vision shows hint of perhaps 1–2 more stellar speckles."

NGC 7209: 2023 Nov 3, 25×100 binocular: "A great cluster for these binoculars. A grainy patch of mostly resolved stars lies due south of a reddish bright star. The stars form a vague `A' shape with the apex going roughly east. About 1½ dozen stars are resolved but it is too difficult to hold and count them at this power of 25×. The length of the slant edges of the A is only slightly less than the distance between the heart of the cluster and the reddish star."

 

Some of these clusters in the milky way are barely over the milky way density and condensed FOV will help. If you're using an SCT that's fine, but you may want either a very long focal length eyepiece or a focal reducer of some sort.

[12BH7]

I found that a number of Lacerta's clusters to have that ghostly haze of stars. The first few nights I went out the conditions were on the poor side. Making me question if I had even seen those clusters.  One night when it was clearer I confirmed that background haze to be distant stars. Then I realized that I did locate those clusters. Tricky clusters!!!

[andreww71]

Interesting using an 18". I was considering going in the other direction and buying a 4" refractor. The only thing that did concern me is that some of these clusters are on the faint side. So a 4" might not be of much value for these particular clusters???

None of these is too large for a wide field eyepiece on either the 18" I was using or the 22" I'm currently using. I've added the Trumpler class and size and I think the challenge with these is that with the exception of King 9, the rest are type II or III meaning they are not very condensed which makes them difficult to identify in the rich milky way background.

 

Berkeley 98 [III 2 m] 15'

NGC 7209 [III 1 m] 25'

NGC 7243 [II 2 m] 21'

NGC 7245 [II 2 m] 5'

IC 1434 [III 2 m] 7'

IC 1442 [III 1 p] 3.5'

King 9 [I 1 m] 2.5'

 

Andrew

[12BH7]

That does seem to be a problem. Many of those clusters are no different in pattern than the background stars.

[The Planetman]

This subject prompted my memory of a short article in the first Deep Sky Magazine I bought back in 1982.
A brief article about observing galaxies and open clusters in Lacerta.
I've taken a couple of shots of the main information.
 

Attached Thumbnails

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[alder1]

When I was doing the AL OC list with my eQuinox I picked up King 9, Berk 96, IC1434 and NGC7209. Most were meh, but IC 1434 was quite lovely. I once started a project to observe all the OC’s in Cygnus but so many of them were indistinguishable from the background I gave it up. 

[12BH7]

This subject prompted my memory of a short article in the first Deep Sky Magazine I bought back in 1982.
A brief article about observing galaxies and open clusters in Lacerta.
I've taken a couple of shots of the main information.
 

Wow, that was some list. I started out by star hopping and using DSC. But doing that to find those objects - wow!

[12BH7]

When I was doing the AL OC list with my eQuinox I picked up King 9, Berk 96, IC1434 and NGC7209. Most were meh, but IC 1434 was quite lovely. I once started a project to observe all the OC’s in Cygnus but so many of them were indistinguishable from the background I gave it up. 

Years ago I started doing a run of OC in that area as well. I just remember that the DSS images were of no help.

[12BH7]

I got my Nexus DSC up and running this week on my 8" scope. I'm going to give those clusters another try being the Nexus seems to be far more accurate than my LX90's DSC system.

[andreww71]

This subject prompted my memory of a short article in the first Deep Sky Magazine I bought back in 1982.
A brief article about observing galaxies and open clusters in Lacerta.
I've taken a couple of shots of the main information.
 

My first issue of Deep Sky magazine is issue 9. At the time I lived in a suburb on the east side of Cleveland, OH and had a 4-1/2" reflector. My tongue would wag regularly while reading about observations of deep sky objects with 12-1/2" and 16" scopes. I did not renew after one year given my circumstances but sometime in the late 1990's I was able to pick up many/most back issues that were available from Kalmbach publishing - but none that were earlier than issue 9.

 

Andrew

[andreww71]

None of these is too large for a wide field eyepiece on either the 18" I was using or the 22" I'm currently using. I've added the Trumpler class and size and I think the challenge with these is that with the exception of King 9, the rest are type II or III meaning they are not very condensed which makes them difficult to identify in the rich milky way background.

 

Berkeley 98 [III 2 m] 15'

NGC 7209 [III 1 m] 25'

NGC 7243 [II 2 m] 21'

NGC 7245 [II 2 m] 5'

IC 1434 [III 2 m] 7'

IC 1442 [III 1 p] 3.5'

King 9 [I 1 m] 2.5'

 

Andrew

I made a trip to my dark sky site 12/22 and checked out a few of these with my current 22" scope. All observations where made with a 13 Ethos which produces 206x and 0.38 TFOV. These all could have taken more magnification given their small size but the seeing was not good enough.

 

NGC 7245 [II 2 m] 5' - I rank this a four out of five, a nice cluster

IC 1434 [III 2 m] 7' - Even though this is a class III, I found this easy to discern in the star field, ranked 3 out of 5

IC 1442 [III 1 p] 3.5' - This was not difficult to discern but not all that impressive, ranked 2 out of 5

King 9 [I 1 m] 2.5' - This needs 300x or more to show properly but the seeing did not allow

 

Andrew

[The Planetman]

My first issue of Deep Sky magazine is issue 9. At the time I lived in a suburb on the east side of Cleveland, OH and had a 4-1/2" reflector. My tongue would wag regularly while reading about observations of deep sky objects with 12-1/2" and 16" scopes. I did not renew after one year given my circumstances but sometime in the late 1990's I was able to pick up many/most back issues that were available from Kalmbach publishing - but none that were earlier than issue 9.

 

Andrew

Several years ago I was able to complete my collection from the first Deep Sky Monthly January 1980 through the last Deep Sky Quarterly #37; Winter 1990-91.
Prior to that, they were printed by David Eicher and his father using a copy machine.  I've never seen any of those for sale.
I do have several copies of the now defunct National Deep Sky Observers publications.  They too were just distributed as photo copies to members.  They were much like the early Deep Sky in content and are still good sources of reference.

[CHnuschti]

I pulled out my observing lists of OCs from Skytools. For my approx. 100mm aperture.

 

Contrary to Skysafari, were many OC are listed with "unknown brightness", in Skytools most (if not all?) have a "brightness", based kind on the brightest stars therein I guess.

 

But I wouldn't give to much on that. There are also OCs with say 1 bright star and modest up to non-saying "additions" where you may ask "where is the OC at all?".

 

Attached are the pictures for Lacerta lac.

 

regards

 

Up to 8.5m

 

From 8.5 to 11.0m

 

 

Skysafari lists (includes also cep and peg, well everything in that region).

 cep_skytools_os.8.5m.skylist   1.75KB   1 downloads

 cep_skytools_os.8.5mto11.0m.skylist   1.96KB   0 downloads

 

[12BH7]

This is my first "serious" dabbling's into the dimmer and not so evident OC's. Not being totally familiar with what to expect I was relying on DSS images. That didn't work out. I would have busted out the old Uranometria, but that disappeared during my last move. 

 

After having my GOTO mount point to open space, I was finally able to identify a few by surrounding star asterisms. To my surprise, several of those "open spaces" were where the OC was. And yes, many of those OC's were mostly open space with one or two stars visible. 

 

At least now when I GOTO a cluster and see virtually nothing, I know that this cluster is most likely beyond the limit of my scope. And I'm not thinking that my GOTO is way off.