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December 4, 2024 - GRS Transit

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#1 Borodog

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 02:08 PM

Seeing was supposed to be average, which it was earlier when I imaged the SEB breakout. However, it improved significantly for the GRS transit later. These are all 21 minute derotations made from 7 3 minute stacks, totaling 63 individual frames which I will animate at some point. I've returned to a more sane capture resolution; 1100 EdgeHD + ASI678MC, no Barlow, at capture resolution. Each stack was made using the number of frames Autostakkert chose for the reference frame, and the derotations were weighted by the number of frames in each stack. Stacks were deconvolved in BiggSky. Saturation and a bit of curves were applied in waveSharp. No other processing. No denoising.

 

This is a jpeg that fits under the 500 kb rule; click for the PNG (personally I can't see a difference).

 

gallery_346195_17566_85997.jpg

 

 

 

Thanks for looking. 

 

 

Edit:

 

Here is the single best derotation, as ranked by Autostakkert. Click on this image to see the animation of all 63 frames, plus 8 derotated "filler" frames to fill the gaps when I stopped to refocus and adjust the ADC. Sadly there is a 1 pixel jitter associated with the filler frames that I just cannot eliminate. Very annoying. 

 

gallery_346195_17566_482999.png


Edited by Borodog, 06 December 2024 - 09:49 PM.

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#2 Peter L.

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 02:53 PM

Very nice. Thanks for sharing!


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#3 Dulcimore

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 02:59 PM

Wow!


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#4 bk42

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 03:21 PM

Really great captures Mike! That is a heroic effort to process all of those frames,especially in WJ. Would love to see that animation. Great work.


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#5 Kokatha man

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 04:38 PM

I've no intentions of throwing hand grenades in Mike, it's quite evident that you have captured a lot of detail in these Jovian images waytogo.gif waytogo.gif waytogo.gif  but there's something not right with them to me!

 

Perhaps it's simply that they have an outcome that is quite foreign to just about any other highly-detailed images that I'm familiar with - and I am at a loss for a way of actually describing this "variation" I see in them grin.gif  - but I felt it important to let you know...quite different to some of the other outcomes you've posted recently.

 

It's clearly the sharpening mode's outcome with your data and I have no knowledge of "BiggSky" whatsoever...that said, the old adage that it's your data and you are free to interpret it in any way you feel appropriate is of course true! wink.gif


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#6 kevinbreen

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 08:55 PM

. Each stack was made using the number of frames Autostakkert chose for the reference frame,

Can you please elaborate on this?

I've been dropping avi files into AS!4 and doing nothing else that stacking various percentages according to what the quality graph tells me.

What are you doing that I ain't?
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#7 Borodog

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 09:34 PM

Very nice. Thanks for sharing!

 

Wow!

 

Really great captures Mike! That is a heroic effort to process all of those frames,especially in WJ. Would love to see that animation. Great work.

 

Thank you all very kindly. 

 

 

. Each stack was made using the number of frames Autostakkert chose for the reference frame,

Can you please elaborate on this?

I've been dropping avi files into AS!4 and doing nothing else that stacking various percentages according to what the quality graph tells me.

What are you doing that I ain't?

 

In Autostakkert, after you Analyze a video, in the lower left, under Reference Frame, click Manual. Autostakkert will show you the number of frames it was decided to use for the reference frame. I stacked that number of frames for each video. It's different for each video. Make sure that this setting is back on Automatic before you Analyze the next video. This would be SO much easier if Emil would make this an option, to automatically stack the number of frames chosen for the reference frame. I could have literally dragged in all 70 videos of the evening, set the APs, clicked Stack, and come back when it was done. 

 

In any event, after stacking, sharpen your images however you prefer. You need a batch processor, like waveSharp, or BiggSky, or whatever tool you prefer, as long as it can process in batch. Because there is no effin way I am manually processing 70 stacks. 

 

Finally, when you do your derotations in WinJUPOS, weight the individual images by the number of frames in each stack going into the derotation. For example, for the 10 derotations I made for the night (the SEB breakout image and these 9), these were the numbers of frames stacked and the corresponding weights:

 

 

Batch 1     Batch 2

14526 0.8  14621 0.7
9862  0.6  17970 0.9
9911  0.6  17842 0.9
17946 1.0  13183 0.6
11152 0.6  17824 0.9
10280 0.6  18428 0.9
15854 0.9  20597 1.0

 

Batch 3     Batch 4
19878 0.8  13391 0.6
23828 1.0  19419 0.9
13065 0.5  13534 0.6
19459 0.8  13693 0.7
19396 0.8  12478 0.6
17694 0.7  6954  0.3
18430 0.8  20844 1.0

 

Batch 5    Batch 6
13495 0.5  17656 0.7
18841 0.8  14802 0.6
18631 0.7  7291  0.3
18363 0.7  15555 0.6
14506 0.6  17456 0.7
20225 0.8  24954 1.0
24920 1.0  24654 1.0

 

Batch 7    Batch 8
21422 0.9  20972 0.8
17471 0.8  19575 0.8
22073 1.0  21682 0.9
23012 1.0  24953 1.0
21606 0.9  24953 1.0
21269 0.9  24601 1.0
17890 0.8  21865 0.9

 

Batch 9    Batch 10
16618 0.8  19075 0.8
15510 0.8  14644 0.6
17666 0.9  24193 1.0
5704  0.3  21895 0.9
9826  0.5  19845 0.8
19575 1.0  24954 1.0
20103 1.0  21226 0.9

 

It would be better if WinJUPOS allowed more than a single digit of precision for the weights, but alas, it doesn't. Just 1 more decimal would be much better.

 

In case it isn't clear, the stack with the most frames gets a weight of 1.0 in the derotation and the rest are scaled linearly by frames stacked relative to the best stack.

 

The point of all of this is that using the number of frames chosen for the reference frame is a crude but seemingly effective way of stacking fewer frames in poorer videos and more frames in better videos. Weighting the derotation by frames stacked ensures that all the frames that go into the derotation are treated roughly equally, rather than entire stacks. You don't want to weight a stack with 6,000 frames the same as one with 24,000 frames. 

 

 

Without that one option in Autostakkert, however, this is grueling, and I doubt anyone but me it dumb enough to do it. I've requested that option, by the way, to automatically stack the number of frames chosen for the reference frame. I'm pretty sure it's a one-liner. But so far I have had no response from Emil. 



#8 Borodog

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 09:51 PM

Here is the single best stack, as ranked by Autostakkert. Click this image to see the animation. 

 

 

gallery_346195_17566_482999.png

 

 

I've also added this animation to the OP.

 

Thanks for looking.


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#9 Borodog

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 10:13 PM

Darryl,

 

This is Greg's recently posted image with his C14 scaled to my capture scale with my C11.

 

comparison.png

 

Left: "Really nice Greg..! waytogo.gif waytogo.gif waytogo.gif waytogo.gif "

 

Right: " . . . there's something not right with them to me!"

 

Notwithstanding different choices of color balance and somewhat different gamma, and of course his 27% larger aperture aperture, there is very little difference in these images. 

 

 


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#10 Kokatha man

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Posted 06 December 2024 - 11:57 PM

Mike - it's the sharpening/deconvolution effects I'm talking about...if you want an extra waytogo.gif than what I gave you if you actually used my full quoting, you're more than welcome to it..! grin.gif  (I know some people get quite involved in comparing how many "Likes" or "views" they get...and maybe even the number of merit accolades in the emoticons.)

 

But please don't make any "count" comparison in anything I "award" on that score if you'll pardon me making a pun of those sorts of analyses... wink.gif

 

You're correct about the level of detail, but again, that's not what I'm talking about - sorry flowerred.gif if that upset you but that was why I also said  <"that said, the old adage it's your data and you are free to interpret it in any way you feel appropriate is of course true! ">

 

It may be (actually it is grin.gif ) a convention for folks just to make nice commentaries on work regardless of what they might think if they weren't conforming to some notion of manners - and I understand that...but I've never really conformed to "The Emperor's New Clothes" mentality because I think it stifles objective critique and/or debate...one reason I often sound so critical of my own outcomes and insert feeds to give people some idea of what I have to deal with atm...I appreciate the compliments but these days with Mars & Jove I usually feel that the outcomes have only just scraped over my own personal bar for posting in the first place.

 

As said, I cannot really find the exact words for what I think your processing regimen has done to your data...all I can say atm is that in some ways it is akin (but not the same) as when folks use one of the denoising applications found in Topaz or AstraImage  that really don't suit (and aren't intended) for planetary processing, emphasising details in what I deem an "unnatural" way.

 

Look at the festoons along the boundary of the EZ with the SEB for example - in Greg's they are much finer than your own image where they become coarser and more "caricatured" if you'll pardon the term, an overall description for your images' detail's appearance...as if you might have chosen an incorrect curve width possibly - but on that score I have no understanding of B/Sky so that's just a stab at possible explanation!

 

Again. apologies if you take offence but I hoped to have made that clear in my original post with the way I couched my response! smile.gif flowerred.gif


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#11 RMay

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Posted 07 December 2024 - 02:34 AM

These are all simply magnificent; thanks for sharing.

Ron
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#12 Kokatha man

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Posted 07 December 2024 - 07:15 AM

Mike - it's the sharpening/deconvolution effects I'm talking about...if you want an extra waytogo.gif than what I gave you if you actually used my full quoting, you're more than welcome to it..! grin.gif  (I know some people get quite involved in comparing how many "Likes" or "views" they get...and maybe even the number of merit accolades in the emoticons.)

 

But please don't make any "count" comparison in anything I "award" on that score if you'll pardon me making a pun of those sorts of analyses... wink.gif

 

You're correct about the level of detail, but again, that's not what I'm talking about - sorry flowerred.gif if that upset you but that was why I also said  <"that said, the old adage it's your data and you are free to interpret it in any way you feel appropriate is of course true! ">

 

It may be (actually it is grin.gif ) a convention for folks just to make nice commentaries on work regardless of what they might think if they weren't conforming to some notion of manners - and I understand that...but I've never really conformed to "The Emperor's New Clothes" mentality because I think it stifles objective critique and/or debate...one reason I often sound so critical of my own outcomes and insert feeds to give people some idea of what I have to deal with atm...I appreciate the compliments but these days with Mars & Jove I usually feel that the outcomes have only just scraped over my own personal bar for posting in the first place.

 

As said, I cannot really find the exact words for what I think your processing regimen has done to your data...all I can say atm is that in some ways it is akin (but not the same) as when folks use one of the denoising applications found in Topaz or AstraImage  that really don't suit (and aren't intended) for planetary processing, emphasising details in what I deem an "unnatural" way.

 

Look at the festoons along the boundary of the EZ with the SEB for example - in Greg's they are much finer than your own image where they become coarser and more "caricatured" if you'll pardon the term, an overall description for your images' detail's appearance...as if you might have chosen an incorrect curve width possibly - but on that score I have no understanding of B/Sky so that's just a stab at possible explanation!

 

Again. apologies if you take offence but I hoped to have made that clear in my original post with the way I couched my response! smile.gif flowerred.gif

I meant Image Analyzer with its "adaptive smooth/sharpen" Mike - not  AstraImage in my post...


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#13 Borodog

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Posted 07 December 2024 - 05:36 PM

Mike - it's the sharpening/deconvolution effects I'm talking about...if you want an extra waytogo.gif than what I gave you if you actually used my full quoting, you're more than welcome to it..! grin.gif  (I know some people get quite involved in comparing how many "Likes" or "views" they get...and maybe even the number of merit accolades in the emoticons.)

 

But please don't make any "count" comparison in anything I "award" on that score if you'll pardon me making a pun of those sorts of analyses... wink.gif

 

You're correct about the level of detail, but again, that's not what I'm talking about - sorry flowerred.gif if that upset you but that was why I also said  <"that said, the old adage it's your data and you are free to interpret it in any way you feel appropriate is of course true! ">

 

It may be (actually it is grin.gif ) a convention for folks just to make nice commentaries on work regardless of what they might think if they weren't conforming to some notion of manners - and I understand that...but I've never really conformed to "The Emperor's New Clothes" mentality because I think it stifles objective critique and/or debate...one reason I often sound so critical of my own outcomes and insert feeds to give people some idea of what I have to deal with atm...I appreciate the compliments but these days with Mars & Jove I usually feel that the outcomes have only just scraped over my own personal bar for posting in the first place.

 

As said, I cannot really find the exact words for what I think your processing regimen has done to your data...all I can say atm is that in some ways it is akin (but not the same) as when folks use one of the denoising applications found in Topaz or AstraImage  that really don't suit (and aren't intended) for planetary processing, emphasising details in what I deem an "unnatural" way.

 

Look at the festoons along the boundary of the EZ with the SEB for example - in Greg's they are much finer than your own image where they become coarser and more "caricatured" if you'll pardon the term, an overall description for your images' detail's appearance...as if you might have chosen an incorrect curve width possibly - but on that score I have no understanding of B/Sky so that's just a stab at possible explanation!

 

Again. apologies if you take offence but I hoped to have made that clear in my original post with the way I couched my response! smile.gif flowerred.gif

 

That's a lot of words. I believe the comparison image I posted speaks for itself. The only thing I'll respond to is the part I've bolded. Greg has a C14. I have a C11. Of course his details are finer at my image scale. He has 27% more aperture. I even pointed this out when I posted it. 



#14 Borodog

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Posted 07 December 2024 - 05:36 PM

These are all simply magnificent; thanks for sharing.

Ron

 

 

Thank you very much for the kind words, Ron. They are greatly appreciated. 



#15 Winteria

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Posted 07 December 2024 - 08:56 PM

Well done Mike! Really nice images.


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#16 Borodog

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Posted 07 December 2024 - 09:12 PM

Well done Mike! Really nice images.


Thank you very much!

#17 dcaponeii

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Posted 08 December 2024 - 07:15 AM

Thank you all very kindly. 

 

 

 

In Autostakkert, after you Analyze a video, in the lower left, under Reference Frame, click Manual. Autostakkert will show you the number of frames it was decided to use for the reference frame. I stacked that number of frames for each video. It's different for each video. Make sure that this setting is back on Automatic before you Analyze the next video. This would be SO much easier if Emil would make this an option, to automatically stack the number of frames chosen for the reference frame. I could have literally dragged in all 70 videos of the evening, set the APs, clicked Stack, and come back when it was done. 

 

In any event, after stacking, sharpen your images however you prefer. You need a batch processor, like waveSharp, or BiggSky, or whatever tool you prefer, as long as it can process in batch. Because there is no effin way I am manually processing 70 stacks. 

 

Finally, when you do your derotations in WinJUPOS, weight the individual images by the number of frames in each stack going into the derotation. For example, for the 10 derotations I made for the night (the SEB breakout image and these 9), these were the numbers of frames stacked and the corresponding weights:

 

 

Batch 1     Batch 2

14526 0.8  14621 0.7
9862  0.6  17970 0.9
9911  0.6  17842 0.9
17946 1.0  13183 0.6
11152 0.6  17824 0.9
10280 0.6  18428 0.9
15854 0.9  20597 1.0

 

Batch 3     Batch 4
19878 0.8  13391 0.6
23828 1.0  19419 0.9
13065 0.5  13534 0.6
19459 0.8  13693 0.7
19396 0.8  12478 0.6
17694 0.7  6954  0.3
18430 0.8  20844 1.0

 

Batch 5    Batch 6
13495 0.5  17656 0.7
18841 0.8  14802 0.6
18631 0.7  7291  0.3
18363 0.7  15555 0.6
14506 0.6  17456 0.7
20225 0.8  24954 1.0
24920 1.0  24654 1.0

 

Batch 7    Batch 8
21422 0.9  20972 0.8
17471 0.8  19575 0.8
22073 1.0  21682 0.9
23012 1.0  24953 1.0
21606 0.9  24953 1.0
21269 0.9  24601 1.0
17890 0.8  21865 0.9

 

Batch 9    Batch 10
16618 0.8  19075 0.8
15510 0.8  14644 0.6
17666 0.9  24193 1.0
5704  0.3  21895 0.9
9826  0.5  19845 0.8
19575 1.0  24954 1.0
20103 1.0  21226 0.9

 

It would be better if WinJUPOS allowed more than a single digit of precision for the weights, but alas, it doesn't. Just 1 more decimal would be much better.

 

In case it isn't clear, the stack with the most frames gets a weight of 1.0 in the derotation and the rest are scaled linearly by frames stacked relative to the best stack.

 

The point of all of this is that using the number of frames chosen for the reference frame is a crude but seemingly effective way of stacking fewer frames in poorer videos and more frames in better videos. Weighting the derotation by frames stacked ensures that all the frames that go into the derotation are treated roughly equally, rather than entire stacks. You don't want to weight a stack with 6,000 frames the same as one with 24,000 frames. 

 

 

Without that one option in Autostakkert, however, this is grueling, and I doubt anyone but me it dumb enough to do it. I've requested that option, by the way, to automatically stack the number of frames chosen for the reference frame. I'm pretty sure it's a one-liner. But so far I have had no response from Emil. 

Mike,

 

After watching your AS!4 video a few weeks back I checked my own data and in all cases the number of frames selected by AS!4 for the reference matched (within just a handful of frames) the number of frames you get by simply selecting CTRL and defining the cutoff with your mouse at the location on the graph where the green quality line crosses the 50% mark.  The only time for this this wasn't the case was in a handful of my lunar images.  For planetary, I didn't find a single instance in which selecting the cutoff to be the 50% point on the quality curve wasn't a match to what you describe above.  CRTL 50% is a much simpler process to achieve the same result and you don't have to remember to put the reference frame back onto automatic.
 



#18 dcaponeii

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Posted 08 December 2024 - 07:18 AM

Darryl,

 

This is Greg's recently posted image with his C14 scaled to my capture scale with my C11.

 

attachicon.gif comparison.png

 

Left: "Really nice Greg..! waytogo.gif waytogo.gif waytogo.gif waytogo.gif "

 

Right: " . . . there's something not right with them to me!"

 

Notwithstanding different choices of color balance and somewhat different gamma, and of course his 27% larger aperture aperture, there is very little difference in these images. 

Yes and they are dramatically different results.  I've mentioned this as well.  You image on the right looks like someone painted the image with artist oils or something.  It doesn't not look natural to my eye at all.  I believe it's the denoise setting in BiggSky that's causing the difference.  Try leaving both denoise settings on 0 and then use Wavesharp FFT Denoise to remove the noise created by the deconvolution in BiggSky.  I think you'll get a much better result.
 


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#19 Space Cowboy

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Posted 08 December 2024 - 08:43 AM

I agree with Darryl & Don that the detail is bloated and unnatural. Sounds mean but these forums should be about honest opinion as we help each other improve and enjoy our imaging.


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#20 Borodog

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Posted 08 December 2024 - 10:02 AM

Mike,

After watching your AS!4 video a few weeks back I checked my own data and in all cases the number of frames selected by AS!4 for the reference matched (within just a handful of frames) the number of frames you get by simply selecting CTRL and defining the cutoff with your mouse at the location on the graph where the green quality line crosses the 50% mark. The only time for this this wasn't the case was in a handful of my lunar images. For planetary, I didn't find a single instance in which selecting the cutoff to be the 50% point on the quality curve wasn't a match to what you describe above. CRTL 50% is a much simpler process to achieve the same result and you don't have to remember to put the reference frame back onto automatic.



Ah yes; I had forgotten the ctrl click way of setting the number of frames to stack. Thanks for the reminder.
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#21 Borodog

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Posted 08 December 2024 - 10:16 AM

Yes and they are dramatically different results. I've mentioned this as well. You image on the right looks like someone painted the image with artist oils or something. It doesn't not look natural to my eye at all. I believe it's the denoise setting in BiggSky that's causing the difference. Try leaving both denoise settings on 0 and then use Wavesharp FFT Denoise to remove the noise created by the deconvolution in BiggSky. I think you'll get a much better result.



There’s no denoise applied anywhere at all. None in BiggSky and none in waveSharp. I like color. I turn up the saturation. You people like drab, washed out images and that’s fine. I don’t criticize your desaturated brown luminance sharpened images and their washed out blurry colors because that’s the way you like them. I am capable of appreciating all different styles of processing without constantly insulting people whose styles are different from mine.
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#22 kennhk

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Posted 08 December 2024 - 11:00 AM

I don't really mind the sharpening technique per se and I don't think the image would be overly saturated, but the limb brightening rim artifact is whats really ruining the image. You should selectively darken the edges to match the "gamma" of Darryl's. Anyways, it your Biggsky whatever is quite unnatural in general. 


Edited by kennhk, 08 December 2024 - 11:01 AM.


#23 Borodog

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Posted 08 December 2024 - 11:34 AM

I see lots of images processed differently in one way or another from how I would process them. Yet somehow I manage not to insult any of them.

#24 Kokatha man

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Posted 08 December 2024 - 06:01 PM

There’s no denoise applied anywhere at all. None in BiggSky and none in waveSharp. I like color. I turn up the saturation. You people like drab, washed out images and that’s fine. I don’t criticize your desaturated brown luminance sharpened images and their washed out blurry colors because that’s the way you like them. I am capable of appreciating all different styles of processing without constantly insulting people whose styles are different from mine.

 

 

I see lots of images processed differently in one way or another from how I would process them. Yet somehow I manage not to insult any of them.

 

 A little bit of humility and less hyperbole might be in order Mike! lol.gif And nobody really cares if you wack up your saturation. 

 

Actually, Ken has stated what I think I was "tip-toeing" around too much earlier: <"Anyways, it your Biggsky whatever is quite unnatural in general."> 

 

Still, I've learnt something...my original "something's not quite right" and the waytogo.gif waytogo.gif waytogo.gif I gave you for the data you captured was apparently appalling commentary! grin.gif

 

It seems it would've been far better making Ken's comments above...or Stuart's "the detail is bloated and unnatural"...or, Heaven forbid, took my cue from my mate Don...always a model of polite postings..! bigshock.gif rofl2.gif

 

Apologies Don! grin.gif   


  • Foc and dcaponeii like this

#25 kevinbreen

kevinbreen

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Posted 08 December 2024 - 06:46 PM

I love a good argument, and this is a meaty one!

But it's only about planet images.

Stop, or I'll stop following this thread. 😡
  • bk42 likes this


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