26 replies to this topic

[explore19]

Hello everyone,
My equipment is currently stored in a small room inside a work shop. I have to haul it through 2 narrow doorways and then across the yard to get out from under the trees. I am thinking about getting a small portable shed delivered and set up out in the field away from the trees. I would have my equipment stored there and move it just out the 6 foot double door and then put it back when I'm done observing. I have a 10" dob and refractors on manual mounts. No astrophotography, no electronics. I live in the Midwest, so winters can be below zero, or just above freezing and raining. Summers are hot and humid. Does anyone have experience with this?

Would it be better to leave the shed vented to the outside or seal it up and insulate it? There would be no electricity out there, so no heat or dehumidifier.

My thinking is the dob and mounts would probably be ok, but what about a fluorite doublet and a case of eyepieces when the humidity is high?

[Orion68]

"If possible", get the shed off the ground a foot or so and put a moisture barrier under the floor. Even then, I would store the refractors and eyepieces inside the house when not in use.

 

Astro-Physics recommends taking refractors outside in a sealed case and after finished for the night, storing the scope in the sealed case with the lens cap on, before taking the case into a warm house. Leave it in the case until the temperature has equalized.

 

I use the same process with my eyepieces. Just me though, others may disagree.

 

Good luck.

[Doug Culbertson]

I’ve been keeping my telescopes in an unheated uncooled shed for close to 20 years with no ill effects other than dust or pollen. I do keep my dob covered and my refractors in their cases. I have gable vents at each end of the shed, and I would not recommend sealing it air tight. In all the years that I have kept things out there, the worst I have had happen is some roach droppings in my dob base, but pest control took care of that. 

 

In this photo you can see the screen covered vents. I did seal around the floor with Great Stuff foam insulation, so I have never had mice or spiders inside. 

 

 

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[ShaulaB]

Midwesterner here, where temps range from -10F to 105F and humidity is icky.

 

Electronics don't like heat. So since your mounts don't have goto or push-to or tracking, then they are ok.

The Dob will be ok. If the optical tube is Sonotube, you might check that from time to time for any softening from humidity.

 

If you value your refractor, please store it in your house. .

[izar187]

Would it be better to leave the shed vented to the outside or seal it up and insulate it?

___________________________________

 

Another vote for well ventilated, and always dry, as in no snow or rain allowed to blow in. Or flow in under a door.

Think of it as your roll out observatory... the third kind there is, after the roll off roof type, and the domed type.

Yours will be the roll out type.

The storage place must be well ventilated, specifically around the scope. IME

Around the scope is important so the scope is always near ambient temps, and so the scope can naturally dry out after a dewy/frosty night.

Can not recommend a backyard closet type shed, filled with other stuff in storage(for others reading this) with a scope crammed in.  : )

FWIW  I've kept newts in garages, sheds, pole buildings, on porches, under breezeways and in vehicles for 45 years.

 

Eps with the scope?

I do, but only because I keep them protected from dew and frost, and don't put them away wet.

Mine don't sit out in it, are kept warm when I'm using them, or remain close cased with desiccant countermeasures.

But an ep case should be pretty easy to carry out to an observatory...  unless one has ocd hording issues.  : )

[Refractor6]

 In our climate its a tricky thing since we can hit 98 to 99% humidity at this time of the year on any given day and night. 

 

What I just did was order a good quality low watt {easy on the electrical bill} dehumidifier for my storage shed. Going to run it every night off an extension cord for the winter months. All that's scope related is the mount covered up with a few cotton layers and the steel tripod at present....all optical related stuff in the house safe from the condensation and mold.

Edited by Refractor6, 14 December 2024 - 10:03 PM.

[izar187]

Because of modern technology...  perhaps a solar panel power supply, near or on the shed?

[Jon Isaacs]

My two cents:

 

We've had our place in the high desert for 15 years.  The scope storage in the garage, it is well ventilated, both intended and unintended. It's on the creaky side and it's often quite windy.  My 12.5 inch and 16 inch have been in the garage for 15 years, the 22 inch for about 8 years.

 

My two concerns are dust and humidity.  It is normally very dry, often under 20% RH.  That makes for dust, it gets everywhere.  It's at 3700 feet elevation in a pass between the desert and the ocean, sometimes it's like being inside a cloud, everything is dripping wet.  The sky can be clear as a bell and 15 minutes later, a black cloudy comes over the ridge and everything is wet.

 

When I am there, I store my eyepieces and refractors in the garage but I would store them in the house if I am going to be gone.

 

Jon

[Mike Q]

All my equiment is stored in a shed.  It has gable vents and a ridge vent to promote air movement.  I tried the solar fan route and can say that was a waste of money and have since dug a trench and ran power and installed outlets which will power fans. The shed itself is raised up off the ground about six inches to get some air movement under it as well.  All scopes are covered, the frac is in its case as are the eyepieces. 

Edited by Mike Q, 15 December 2024 - 07:48 AM.

[WadeH237]

I wouldn't worry about temperature at all.  Consider that amateur observatories tend to house expensive gear, and they are not climate controlled, even in very hot or cold locations.  I have a 14" Dob stored on a Scope Buggy that is inside my unheated (but insulated) metal garage.  We see temperatures near zero F in winter, and over 100F in summer.  It's fine.  It's actually better than fine.  It keeps the scope pretty well acclimated so that it's ready to use without waiting for it to acclimate.

 

The two things that I would worry about are humidity and creatures.  If it gets very humid where you live, you might be better off keeping the scope indoors.  Insects and spiders are nearly unpreventable, so you should just assume that you will need to deal with them occasionally.  Rodents (including my personal favorite, squirrels) can do lots of damage quickly.  Do whatever you have to do to keep them out of the shed.

[explore19]

Thanks for all the great advice! To be clear, I don't have a fluorite refractor, just a 100ED and a couple acromats. Just thinking ahead.

Izar187, thanks for the idea about the solar panel, I have no experience with these. I wander how much that would cost for a big enough setup to at least run a dehumidifier.

[izar187]

I have no experience with them either, but sounds like Mike Q in post # 9 does.

[WadeH237]

When I lived in a humid environment, I used two 12" Goldenrod heaters underneath a TG365 cover.  These did a great job of keeping it dry under the cover, no matter the weather.

 

The Goldenrods that I have are rated for 8 watts, but they run on AC.  I ran them from AC current.  To run them from solar, you would need an inverter and a battery (to keep them running in the absence of sun).  To account for that inefficiency, let's assume that they draw 10 watts each.  So two of them would draw 20 watts.  The inverter itself will consume some power, probably about 12 watts, so that brings us to 32 watts continuous, 24 hours a day.

 

If we assume a 12 volt system, 32 watts for a full 24 hours works out to 64 amp hours (32 watts x 24 hours / 12 volts).  So that is the minimum size battery that you would need to support the entire system for 1 day without sun.  If you want to charge such a system with, say, 6 hours of sunlight, you would need 128 watts of solar panel.  Of course, this assumes that your panels are operating at 100% efficiency.  If you get a more reasonable 75% efficiency, then you would need 170 watts of solar.  You'd probably want at least 100 amp hours in a LiFePO4 battery.  For a lead based battery, like an AGM, you would want 200 amp hours.

 

That sounds reasonable (and is strikingly similar to the solar/battery setup that I have to support my imaging rig).

 

But not really.  There are two huge problems:  First, I was keeping it dry under a TG365 cover.  Keeping a whole shed dry would take much more heat, and this is probably a show stopper.  But the second problem is no easier.  The second problem is that you need to stay dry even when it's cloudy all day (in fact, it's probably more important to run heat in cloudy weather).  Unless you do something to keep the system from completely depleting the battery, then you would probably kill it pretty quickly and would need to replace it.

 

tl;dr

 

It takes lots of energy to remove moisture from the air.  It's probably not practical to do it with just solar and a battery.  You would want to run AC power to the shed.

 

Of course, you could do it chemically, with a desiccant.  The problem here is that desiccants can only hold so much moisture before they need to be dried out.  This would be a frequent maintenance operation...and you would need lots of it to keep an entire shed dry.

 

The other alternative is to ensure effective air circulation with the outside.  This would help to keep the humidity in the shed from exceeding the ambient humidity.  In many situations, this would be fine.  If I were to do this without AC power at the shed, I would use a solar/battery system similar to the above.  But instead of running heaters, I would make vents for the shed and use the power to run fans to circulate the air.  This might be the best option in this case.

 

In an area that rains all winter long (like where I used to live), you would probably want to just move the scope indoors during the rainy season.

 

I hope that this helps,

-Wade

[Piero DP]

Both my dobs live in the garage and are covered with 100% cotton bedsheets.
The garage is not insulated. The only time I experienced condensation was an odd day when the temperature increased from -3C to 17C in about 6-8h. The solution was to remove the covers, store the telescopes horizontally and place a plywood sheet on the floor under the dobsons to separate the ground boards from the concrete floor.

[Mike Q]

Thanks for all the great advice! To be clear, I don't have a fluorite refractor, just a 100ED and a couple acromats. Just thinking ahead.

Izar187, thanks for the idea about the solar panel, I have no experience with these. I wander how much that would cost for a big enough setup to at least run a dehumidifier.

The effectiveness of solar will depend on several things.  The first is naturally how much sun do you get and secondly what are you trying to run.  To run a dehumidifier you will need good panels, a controller, an inverter and batteries to store energy to run stuff at night.  Yes you can put together a solar system like that for 600 dollars or so.  Or, you can just hardwire it and be done with it.  I gave a basic solar system a try and two months later i dug a trench and hardwired it anyway.  If you have clear skies and can put up multiple panels to catch the sun you woll have a shot.  If you dont have good clear skies most of the time.... Dont mess with it. 

[izar187]

Do most folks who use observatories, out on their property, do dehumidifiers at all?

The roll out, roll away, roll off, and domed observatories that I know of, do not.

Nor have ever I, in all of the different out of the house storage spaces that I have used. FWIW

Just well ventilated, with air space around the scope, and kept dry from precipitation.

[Refractor6]

  Wouldn't work here without one as earlier mentioned. I put off my plans of making one once I experienced firsthand the high level of humidity and condensation in our valley between high mountains in just my storage shed alone. The intense fog is the worst culprit.....condensation gets into everything on those nights. Just got the word the dehumidifier is arriving tomorrow.... not soon enough.

 

 An unheated observatory with no dehumidifier at my location would be a science experiment gone wrong.....

Edited by Refractor6, 15 December 2024 - 08:33 PM.

[Mike Q]

Do most folks who use observatories, out on their property, do dehumidifiers at all?

The roll out, roll away, roll off, and domed observatories that I know of, do not.

Nor have ever I, in all of the different out of the house storage spaces that I have used. FWIW

Just well ventilated, with air space around the scope, and kept dry from precipitation.

A little bit of air movement goes a long way

[Taylor]

"If possible", get the shed off the ground a foot or so and put a moisture barrier under the floor. Even then, I would store the refractors and eyepieces inside the house when not in use.

 

Astro-Physics recommends taking refractors outside in a sealed case and after finished for the night, storing the scope in the sealed case with the lens cap on, before taking the case into a warm house. Leave it in the case until the temperature has equalized.

 

I use the same process with my eyepieces. Just me though, others may disagree.

 

Good luck.

This is what I do. 
Electronics, mounts, other hardware, stay outside in the unconditioned observatory.

Optical surfaces and cameras live in a closet in the house and I'll take them out there as I need them. 

[explore19]

Lots of good info here. I am somewhat interested in a solar panel and battery setup. If I air sealed and super insulated the building, a decent sized dehumidifier would probably only need to run 10% of the time to keep it below 50%, maybe more depending on the season. That's if the door stayed shut pretty much all the time. It would also be a place for the kids to get out of the cold when they are out with me. But for now I'll probably try the no power/ventilated route and see how it goes. I'm not sure if this project will ever get off the ground, I've thought about it for a long time and just haven't did anything.

[carolinaskies]

I've recovered equipment from ROR observatories and sheds over the past 30 years.  

The biggest issues you'll have is dust and vermin/insects.  Next is humidity. 

#1 regularly inspect the observatory/storage area. 

• Don't leave it for months, or worse, years.
• Pests like un-habited places.  There are some sonic devices used for car storage that apparently do keep certain pests away.  
• Air out the area regularly to help control inordinate humidity.   Use a smart dehumidifier set to 60% which is around normal home humidity. 

#2 regularly clean the area inside and outside to help keep dust and unwanted things away.  Dust/dirt loves humidity.  Our club opened a ROR location that hadn't seen use in years, the gaps allowed alot of dust and vermin all over. 

#3 Cover the equipment stored appropriately.  If you plan to leave it stored used breathable storage fabric to allow any moisture a chance to escape.  Dessicant bags and plugs should be used in strategic places

#4 Store eyepieces, filters and small accessories inside cooler boxes between sessions, remembering to inspect and clean them ASAP after a session.  And make sure there is dessicant in that cooler, it will take up any moisture from the session. 

 

#5 If possible, put a motion sensor alarm/camera  on the building to let you know if anyone is accessing it.   A good lock keeps honest people honest, but having an alarm/camera will let you know who is sneaking around (human or other creaturewise). 

[izar187]

#1 regularly inspect the observatory/storage area.

    Don't leave it for months, or worse, years.

_________________________

 

Yes to this. So you know how things are doing there, and can implement changes, tweaks and fixes.

 

Regarding sonic devices to apparently keep away certain pests...  apparently not.  IME   : )

[Phil Cowell]

Jon and Uncle Rod recommended a low wattage bulb under the cover over the scope and mount in my observatory. Works like a charm. The observatory is un heated but a 5W bulb works great. It gets humid up here and very cold. No problems so far.

 

I use mouse traps to stop them from nesting. Only critter that ever got in.

 

Do most folks who use observatories, out on their property, do dehumidifiers at all?

The roll out, roll away, roll off, and domed observatories that I know of, do not.

Nor have ever I, in all of the different out of the house storage spaces that I have used. FWIW

Just well ventilated, with air space around the scope, and kept dry from precipitation.

Edited by Phil Cowell, 18 December 2024 - 10:49 PM.

[Refractor6]

  Just a word of warning about dehumidifiers........ another learning curve.

 

Dehumidifiers don't function well below 59 F of 15C...not stated in any of the promo literature I looked through before making the buy but in very small print on the back of my new unit I just bought.  Imagine my surprise to discover this morning that when even above freezing last night that the front air intake was completely frozen over on the first night of use. When I brought it inside and removed the lower water tray I discovered the actual unit under the air intake that does all the work was completely enclosed in a block of ice....lovely.

 

 No worries I removed the ice and it came back to life unharmed......lucky.  Works great inside my small space and has collected a good deal of moisture so far.

 

 Anyway its now back to the low watt heater instead till weather warms up to 15C for battling condensation and mold in my storage shed.

[luxo II]

Put a cover over the optics and a source of heat in there with them - a heater strap in there running at 100% would do nicely.

Edited by luxo II, 19 December 2024 - 01:47 AM.