38 replies to this topic

[900SL]

A family friend knows I am into DSO imaging, and gifted me their old scope yesterday. (and EQ mount, tripod, accessories, and 20mm, 12.5mm and 6mm 0.965" eyepieces)

 

I know very little about visual astronomy and even less about old telescopes, so when I opened the box my initial reaction was that it was an old clunker, one of the long tube cheapo department store junk models. I mean, who would call a scope a Carton? Surely a Japanese spelling mistake, right?

 

However, and after some goggling, I was pleasantly surprised to find that they are well regarded. So I cleaned it up, removed the objective (no fungus, just dust) put it all together.

 

It appears to be in remarkable condition for the age. It's one owner from new, missing a couple of screws from the tripod tray but otherwise appears as purchased, including the manual

 

First light on the moon yesterday evening showed sharp features and no colour at 12.5mm. Looks like I'll be doing some visual observing with this.. and i might try to source an adapter so I can fit a planetary camera and see how it performs.

 

 

     

Edited by 900SL, 06 January 2025 - 04:33 AM.

[900SL]

Here's some snaps:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrea Salati]

I belong to a generation that came to age using telescopes like that. Mine was a 4.5" f/8 reflector, my friend's a 60/910 refractor just like yours. Same mount.
We both developed a life long passion for astronomy. I guess their being small by today's standards was not an impediment.
I think you will like the views, especially if you approach them with realistic expectations.
Enjoy!

Edited by Andrea Salati, 06 January 2025 - 07:55 AM.

[900SL]

I belong to a generation that come to age using telescopes like that. Mine was a 4.5" f/8 reflector, my friend a 60/910 refractor just like yours. Same mount.
We both developed a life long passion for astronomy. I guess their being small by today's standards was not an impediment.
I think you will like the views, especially if you approach them with realistic expectations.
Enjoy!

Thanks Andrea. I've been reading up on the visual magnification thing (a new field for me, being 100% imaging so far..)

 

The eyepieces this came with are 20mm/12.5mm/6mm and 0.965" size

 

The 6mm is a struggle, the image is dim, difficult to align with the finderscope, and it jiggles around during focusing or moving,

 

The 20mm and 12.5mm are OK and I could get nicely detailed views of the moon. Jupiter was a small white cirle with the 12.5mm and the Jovian moons were pinpoint, like stars.

 

Magnification is 910/12.5 or 20 = 73x or 46x

 

I have a Baader Hyperion barlow I might try with the 20mm if I can figure out the connections. At 2.5x that would give me around 120 x mag, which I gather is the minimum for planetary?  

[900SL]

Whilst I am on, is there a guide online showing a disassembly sequence for this type of mount? (or can any of you advise how to service this mount?)

 

I'd like to strip, clean and grease all the shafts, bearing surfaces and worm gears, and adjust the dec worm which seems to have some free play

 

 

 

 

Edited by 900SL, 06 January 2025 - 08:22 AM.

[Andrea Salati]

Not sure you can find a step by step guide but a Google search may be fruitful.

Regarding the eyepieces, the 6mm also produces an exit pupil of just 0.395mm on that telescope. If you point the telescope at the Moon or Jupiter, you will quickly find out how many floaters you have in your eyes!

[900SL]

Not sure you can find a step by step guide but a Google search may be fruitful.

Regarding the eyepieces, the 6mm also produces an exit pupil of just 0.395mm on that telescope. If you point the telescope at the Moon or Jupiter, you will quickly find out how many floaters you have in your eyes!

The floaters were freaky, I thought there was a bat loose on the scope 

[tturtle]

I have almost this identical vintage scope (70s or 80s) which I bought direct from Japan last year.  Mine is in mint condition and included many somewhat unusual accessories, like a pretty cool Carton labeled lens cleaning cloth.  Carton was one of the few telescope companies in Japan that made their own optics (for a while) rather than just having someone else manufacture the scope and just labeling it as so many companies did. Your scope, like mine, is from the period when they produced very high quality stuff, definitely a cut above the typical Tasco department store fare. It looks like your objective needs cleaning so you should look into the proper way to do that. It’s an air spaced achromat so very simple to disassemble and clean.  The other key thing is to forget about the supplied eyepieces however well made they may be and get an adapter to fit 1.25 eyepieces. This will make a dramatic improvement in the views. The mount is made to operate in equatorial mode rather than racked all the way over in a quasi alt az configuration as shown so you should adjust it for equatorial operation. The viewfinder eyepiece has the best crosshairs you will ever see (a small circle inside of crosshairs) and can be unscrewed to use as a regular .965 eyepiece.  The f15 focal ratio means the scope should largely be free of false color so views of the planets and the moon should be quite nice and sharp. Feel free to PM me if you want to know more. 

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Edited by tturtle, 07 January 2025 - 07:06 AM.

[Andrea Salati]

I have almost this identical vintage scope (70s or 80s) which I bought direct from Japan last year.  Mine is in mint condition and included many somewhat unusual accessories, like a pretty cool Carton labeled lens cleaning cloth.

 

NICE FIND!

 

Carton was one of the few telescope companies in Japan that made their own optics (for a while) rather than just having someone else manufacture the scope and just labeling it as so many companies did. Your scope, like mine, is from the period when they produced very high quality stuff, definitely a cut above the typical Tasco department store fare. It looks like your objective needs cleaning so you should look into the proper way to do that. It’s an air spaced achromat so very simple to disassemble and clean.

 

A few months back I saved a Vixen StarPal 50 from certain death (the kid who had received it as a present many moons ago was now an adult ready to move between houses and wanted it gone or it would find its way to a landfill). I cleaned it and tested it over a few nights. Sure, a 50mm is a 50mm, but it was a GOOD 50mm. I love it when companies are proud of what they make and put all the effort to make it good, regardless of how big or not something is. That doublet was a gem, the rest of the telescope had to be manufactured for cheap so it was plastic galore.

 

The other key thing is to forget about the supplied eyepieces however well made they may be and get an adapter to fit 1.25 eyepieces. This will make a dramatic improvement in the views. The mount is made to operate in equatorial mode rather than racked all the way over in a quasi alt az configuration as shown so you should adjust it for equatorial operation. The viewfinder eyepiece has the best crosshairs you will ever see (a small circle inside of crosshairs)

 

Dang, that viewfinder alone would be a great find. I have a fondness for Made in Japan, 6x30mm finders with a crosshair and I have always desired one with a circle in the center instead of a blind spot caused by the crossing of the lines. Good for you! Let me know if you ever decide to sell it, LOL

 

and can be unscrewed to use as a regular .965 eyepiece.  The f15 focal ratio means the scope should largely be free of false color so views of the planets and the moon should be quite nice and sharp.

 

I believe, like you said, the views will make him happy if he selects the right magnifications.

 

Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.

[Jon Isaacs]

You got a nice looking scope. Not too long ago, I had a Carton 60 mm x 900 mm. My one suggestion is to adapt it so you can use 1.25 inch eyepieces. 

 

Jon

[900SL]

I have almost this identical vintage scope (70s or 80s) which I bought direct from Japan last year.  Mine is in mint condition and included many somewhat unusual accessories, like a pretty cool Carton labeled lens cleaning cloth.  Carton was one of the few telescope companies in Japan that made their own optics (for a while) rather than just having someone else manufacture the scope and just labeling it as so many companies did. Your scope, like mine, is from the period when they produced very high quality stuff, definitely a cut above the typical Tasco department store fare. It looks like your objective needs cleaning so you should look into the proper way to do that. It’s an air spaced achromat so very simple to disassemble and clean.  The other key thing is to forget about the supplied eyepieces however well made they may be and get an adapter to fit 1.25 eyepieces. This will make a dramatic improvement in the views. The mount is made to operate in equatorial mode rather than racked all the way over in a quasi alt az configuration as shown so you should adjust it for equatorial operation. The viewfinder eyepiece has the best crosshairs you will ever see (a small circle inside of crosshairs) and can be unscrewed to use as a regular .965 eyepiece.  The f15 focal ratio means the scope should largely be free of false color so views of the planets and the moon should be quite nice and sharp. Feel free to PM me if you want to know more. 

Lovely looking set up, looks immaculate. That's nice to hear about these Cartons, they seem to be well regarded. 

I've ordered the Vixen adapter to allow the use of 1.25" eyepieces etc. I have the same back projection arm, screen etc and an inverting eyepiece adapter to flip the image view, plus some other bits and bobs, and a cleaning bag (never opened)

 

I removed the lens cell, indexed both lenses with a marker and cleaned the outer surfaces, but I didn't separate the lenses as they appear pretty clean internally. The foil spacers are in OK condition and I didn't want to risk damaging them or messing up any fine tuning

 

I dialed in the viewfinder, it's very good. Crystal clear and a sharply defined cross and circle.

 

About the mount:

 

You seem to have the same mount as mine. I've done a big google search to see if I can find any guides on maintenance or disassembly, but drawn a blank, so I'm hoping somebody can help here

 

I removed the cover from the Dec worm box (see below) and this was straightforward, It's not a full 360 degree toothed wheel. The worm acts on a forked arm and has a limited range of travel in Dec. I've cleaned it and added some PTFE grease:

 

 

 

Dec Worm gearbox (above)

 

 

 

The RA axis looks more complicated and I'm assuming that this has a 360 degree toothed wheel driven by the worm gear

There's a bunch of screws in this box, I assume some act on the worm to adjust any clearance and backlash, but I'm wary of messing around here unless I know what I am doing

 

 

View underneath RA onto worm box (counterweight bar removed)

 

 

I'd be grateful if anybody can advise on this.. as to what screws do what, and which ones to remove to access the worm

Edited by 900SL, 07 January 2025 - 11:34 AM.

[900SL]

You got a nice looking scope. Not too long ago, I had a Carton 60 mm x 900 mm. My one suggestion is to adapt it so you can use 1.25 inch eyepieces. 

 

Jon

Thanks John, in progress

[900SL]

One other question if I may:

I have the Vixen 1.25" adapter en route. What would be a good match for this scope eyepiece wise?

I'm an imager and this is my first visual scope, so it's a new area for me.

I have a Baader hyperion barlow with 1.25 screw thread. From reading up on eyepieces, would a 60x eyepiece be a good place to start? I'd be looking to do lunar, planets and clusters, so could use at 60X or with the barlow to give 120x - 180x?

So say a 15mm EP with a 1mm exit pupil, preferably something with some eye relief.

 

Does the existing tube baffling cause any restrictions on suitable eyepieces? Can I use an eyepiece with a wider FOV?

 

Like I say, I'm a n00b when it comes to visual, so any pointers are appreciated as to a good match

Edited by 900SL, 09 January 2025 - 05:58 AM.

[Andrea Salati]

Considering that most likely that telescope will be used for observing solar system objects for the most part and considering also that shooting for very wide AFOVs would probably be a waste of time, I think an eyepiece meeting your requirement would be a (now discontinued) Vixen LV 15mm.
I can speak for experience as I have one I recently found. I have used them on and off for the past 30+ years. They were the first eyepieces, as I recall, to offer a GENEROUS eye relief regardless of the focal length, a complete range of focal lengths and very good corrected fields of view in the 45° (2.5mm to 7mm) to 50° range (9mm to 25mm). I am avoiding the 30mm, 40mm and 50mm for brevity.
These days, 45° and 50° are considered to be "meh" at best. Back then my personal choice was limited to H, AH and OR eyepieces, so they felt wider if not "wide" per se.

Recently I got a hitch to reconnect with them and I bought a few on the used market. Still good but I could really not find a reason for keeping the 5mm and the 6mm. I did keep the 15mm though which, albeit being a focal length that won't see much use (I also have a Delos 14mm, the competition is rather strong...), is mighty good.

Talking about the used market, unlike other brands (think, TeleVue) your being based in Europe will not be a disadvantage. Not sure about Finland BUT I can tell you that they sold pretty well in Italy and there are still a ton being bought and sold (even though not at the same pace of things in the US but that is another story).

I would say that if you can source one in the 50 to 60 euro, it will make you happy.

You could also buy their grandkids of sort (that line has "evolved" over the years into new lines) but they would cost you more. Find one in good shape and be happy. I would gladly allow you to try out mine but logistics are a real issue this time.

[Andrea Salati]

I took a look at eBay and there is one 15mm available, sold from someone in the UK. The problem is that the title and the pictures do not match.
The title says it is a 15mm, the pictures show a 20mm.
That plus the fact it is priced at 70 pounds AND the seller seems to charge rather steep shipping expenses makes me feel like you are better off staying away, unless you are able to verify the actual focal length of the eyepiece being sold and negotiated a more reasonable total price to you.
On eBay I have seen their prices all over the place, don't be fooled. Now and then some appear priced accordingly to what they would be sold for here or on the other astro market place...

[900SL]

I took a look at eBay and there is one 15mm available, sold from someone in the UK. The problem is that the title and the pictures do not match.
The title says it is a 15mm, the pictures show a 20mm.
That plus the fact it is priced at 70 pounds AND the seller seems to charge rather steep shipping expenses makes me feel like you are better off staying away, unless you are able to verify the actual focal length of the eyepiece being sold and negotiated a more reasonable total price to you.
On eBay I have seen their prices all over the place, don't be fooled. Now and then some appear priced accordingly to what they would be sold for here or on the other astro market place...

Thanks for the feedback Andrea. Unfortunately for me and my wallet, I'm a bit wary about buying used and now the UK has left the EEC there's a border customs issue these days too.

 

I might go for the BST Starguider eyepieces sold by FLO, these seem to be a decent budget eyepiece with a 60 degree field and 15mm eye relief. I can also use this in my Bresser 150 f8 Newtonian. A 15mm and 10mm seems to cover the bases, and I can use them with my barlow. 

[Andrea Salati]

I have the 12mm (in the Astro-Tech cladding) and I love it. I never tried the 15mm so I cannot comment.

[900SL]

Typical for astro, I get a free scope/mount. and then spend 200 + on bits and pieces

 

On its way from FLO:

 

 

 

 

To add to the Vixen adapter

 

One benefit: I can use my existing 2.25 Hyperion barlow with the 18mm eyepiece, and use the whole set up on my 150mm f8 Newt as well

[Andrea Salati]

Typical for astro, I get a free scope/mount. and then spend 200 + on bits and pieces

Don't we all?

[scout]

That's a nice looking mount and wood tripod. And the refractor should be fun to look for double stars while your other scopes take photos of DSOs.

[Terra Nova]

You got a nice looking scope. Not too long ago, I had a Carton 60 mm x 900 mm. My one suggestion is to adapt it so you can use 1.25 inch eyepieces. 

 

Jon

I’ve come full circle on this. I think it’s kinda cool to have one classic long focus achromat that runs on the 0.965” spec, (as long as you have a set of quality vintage 0.965” eyepieces to use with it). I’ve reverted my 60x700mm 1965 Mayflower back to it’s roots using it’s original visual back, a good Tak 0.965” diagonal and an excellent set of a dozen or so vintage Huygens, Kellner, Symmetrical, and orthoscopic eyepieces. It’s fun to compare the views with those of my modern TV60 and modern TV mirror diagonal and eyepieces, or just use the oldie on it’s own, appreciating it for what it was able to do back in it’s day.

 

EDIT: After having MANY classic long focus achromats, I only have the one I mentioned above. That's one reason I like it to be able to produce very original-type views.

Edited by Terra Nova, 17 January 2025 - 05:31 PM.

[SporadicGazer]

  ... (as long as you have a set of quality vintage 0.965” eyepieces to use with it). ...

Sadly, your parenthetical qualifier is increasingly difficult for newcomers to achieve.  So while you state the goal, Jon suggests the budget friendly compromise... which is a little sad honestly.

[tturtle]

You can buy these old smaller format Takahashi eyepieces and diagonals very cheaply from zenmarket and their quality is noticeably higher than pretty much all the other vintage brands (Towa, Celestron, Vixen, etc.).
 

Sadly, your parenthetical qualifier is increasingly difficult for newcomers to achieve.  So while you state the goal, Jon suggests the budget friendly compromise... which is a little sad honestly.

[900SL]

Box arrived from Flo. Now waiting for clear skies

 

[LukaszLu]

You've come across really good quality optics that can surprise even today. I'm attaching a photo of Jupiter taken with my T-620... Even modern ED refractors can envy its contrast and color.

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Edited by LukaszLu, 23 January 2025 - 04:23 PM.