Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Refractor or Reflector WITH Binoviewer for planets

  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#26 noisejammer

noisejammer

    Fish Slapper

  • *****
  • Administrators
  • Posts: 6,367
  • Joined: 16 Sep 2007
  • Loc: The Uncanny Valley

Posted 03 February 2025 - 10:02 AM

The Bortle scale is a measure of sky brightness .. for shallow space you need to consider the Pickering scale not the Bortle.

 

The depressing reality is that once you resolve the atmospheric blur, increasing aperture doesn't help. at 1.5 arcsec resolution, a 3" will show you everything that's visible.

 

I mostly use my TOA150 with MkV binoviewers under sub-arcsec skies. Before I moved to observing heaven, I used a good 115mm apo , also with my MkV's.

 

Final consideration - binoviewers can make balancing a Dob difficult. It's not an issue for a slow Maksutov.


  • msabochi and Dr Arnheim like this

#27 Lookitup

Lookitup

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,035
  • Joined: 29 Jul 2016
  • Loc: Alemaigne

Posted 03 February 2025 - 03:17 PM

X170 is the max I can use for Jupiter currently. The Tak 100DF is bright enough. My 125ED prefers x200 and up but seeing rarely corporates. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_5546.jpg

  • mikeDnight likes this

#28 Eddgie

Eddgie

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 29,810
  • Joined: 01 Feb 2006

Posted 04 February 2025 - 12:37 PM

I did come back to this post after I realized that I missed the fact that the 245mm reflector was f/4.

 

At this aperture, these reflectors are typically set up with a secondary mirror that is large enough to fully illuminate full frame sensor. This means these instruments often have a secondary mirror in the ballpark of 90mm. That would leave a clear aperture of only 164mm, but this does not include the 2% contrast loss for the spider vanes. 

 

I had assumed that the 10" reflector in question was a more optimized instrument with a smaller secondary obstruction. 

 

When I model it, this is what I get. Assuming that both scopes have perfect optics, the 160mm refractor has a very slight advantage in the important visual frequencies (the left half of the graph), but this advantage would grow with even the tiniest amount of seeing or thermal issues on the 10". The 10" is the dotted red, and the blue/green line is 160 is the Apo. 

 

10 v 160.jpg

 

Also, this assumes that the refractor is an FPL-53 or FCD-100 Apo Triplet. At this aperture and speed, this would be the only instrument that would have similar contrast to the 10" f/4 and the plot is based on this kind of scope with no spherochromatism, but that is unrealistic, so if you factored it in, the two contrast curves would likely be almost identical. 

 

What this means is that based on my experience with many larger refractors and typical imaging Newtonians, I would expect the refractor to pretty much always provide more contrast.  In perfect conditions, I would expect the Newtonian to deliver equal contrast, but with even small amounts of seeing error or thermals, my money would absolutely be on the Apo, assuming it was an SD triplet and not an ED triplet.  An ED triplet of this size and speed would have a polychromatic Strehl of maybe .94, but if it was ED, the Polychromatic Strehl would likely be in the .86-.87 ranges, so about the same as a 25% obstruction  

 

I am so sorry that I missed this in my first read, but having caught my mistake, I felt that I should correct this oversight. 


Edited by Eddgie, 04 February 2025 - 12:39 PM.


#29 Dr Arnheim

Dr Arnheim

    Messenger

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 435
  • Joined: 19 May 2024

Posted 04 February 2025 - 01:40 PM

I did come back to this post after I realized that I missed the fact that the 245mm reflector was f/4.

At this aperture, these reflectors are typically set up with a secondary mirror that is large enough to fully illuminate full frame sensor. This means these instruments often have a secondary mirror in the ballpark of 90mm. That would leave a clear aperture of only 164mm, but this does not include the 2% contrast loss for the spider vanes.

I had assumed that the 10" reflector in question was a more optimized instrument with a smaller secondary obstruction.

When I model it, this is what I get. Assuming that both scopes have perfect optics, the 160mm refractor has a very slight advantage in the important visual frequencies (the left half of the graph), but this advantage would grow with even the tiniest amount of seeing or thermal issues on the 10". The 10" is the dotted red, and the blue/green line is 160 is the Apo.

10 v 160.jpg

Also, this assumes that the refractor is an FPL-53 or FCD-100 Apo Triplet. At this aperture and speed, this would be the only instrument that would have similar contrast to the 10" f/4 and the plot is based on this kind of scope with no spherochromatism, but that is unrealistic, so if you factored it in, the two contrast curves would likely be almost identical.

What this means is that based on my experience with many larger refractors and typical imaging Newtonians, I would expect the refractor to pretty much always provide more contrast. In perfect conditions, I would expect the Newtonian to deliver equal contrast, but with even small amounts of seeing error or thermals, my money would absolutely be on the Apo, assuming it was an SD triplet and not an ED triplet. An ED triplet of this size and speed would have a polychromatic Strehl of maybe .94, but if it was ED, the Polychromatic Strehl would likely be in the .86-.87 ranges, so about the same as a 25% obstruction

I am so sorry that I missed this in my first read, but having caught my mistake, I felt that I should correct this oversight.


Hello Eddgie,

Thank you for that post. Can you explain me why a 90mm obstruction would mean only 164mm of free aperture? I thought that I would have to compare the free area rather than the free radius (since the obstruction is in the center the area of obstruction is not 35.4% but rather 12,9%).

Thank you,
Arnheim

Edited by Dr Arnheim, 04 February 2025 - 03:07 PM.


#30 RAKing

RAKing

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 10,903
  • Joined: 28 Dec 2007
  • Loc: Northern VA - West of the D.C. Nebula

Posted 04 February 2025 - 01:46 PM

You are absolutely right. I only use binoculars, my binoviewer and a binotelescope (when it arrives in late February) and I don't do mono viewing at all anymore. I think that the effect size of the binocular summation factor is different from person to person but for me it is quite big. I came to two eyed observing because I noticed that I could find M22 over a city with quite some light pollution with my Canon 18x50 IS but not with my Celestron C6. That was before I knew about binocular summation and all the technical/biological background. And I haven't started with observing comfort yet: I can observe for hours with my binoviewer or binoculars without eye strain : )

Comfort and eye strain are two very important factors that are hard to measure in any objective way.  When I started binoviewing almost 20 years ago, the common mantra was, "You will lose about 0.5 magnitude of light with the binoviewers".  But I never noticed any significant light loss.  I noticed a gain in my ability to see more details with better contrast.

 

And as the floaters in my dominant eye have increased, the ability to use my "other" eye has allowed me to continue observing in comfort.

 

BTW - Refractors allow me to sit in comfort.  The ergonomics are much better for me.

 

Cheers,

 

Ron


  • m2k, Lookitup and Dr Arnheim like this

#31 Dr Arnheim

Dr Arnheim

    Messenger

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 435
  • Joined: 19 May 2024

Posted 04 February 2025 - 09:08 PM

@RAKting: I'm in the same boat. I also think I'm loosing light but I really can't see less light but the gain in details and contrast is clearly visible. That said, I need much more time behind the eyepiece to make a final verdict here.

 

Regarding the Eddgie's post: This was really sparking my interest. How much light, contrast, and resolution do you loose with a central obstruction. For brightness I think that is pretty clear (area of the obstruction/area of aperture = percentage of brightness loss), however, with contrast and resolution I have found VERY different answer to that. Here is what chatGPT thinks:

 

1. Effect on Resolution (Angular Resolution)
The theoretical diffraction-limited resolution of a telescope (in radians) is:

mathematica
Kopieren
Bearbeiten
θ = 1.22 * (λ / D)
where:

λ = wavelength of light (in meters),
D = telescope aperture (in meters),
θ = angular resolution in radians.

 

Effect of Central Obstruction

A central obstruction increases the size of diffraction rings, affecting resolution. The modified resolution formula is:

θ' = 1.22 * (λ / D) * (1 + C² / 2)
where:

C = d / D is the obstruction ratio (obstruction diameter d divided by aperture D).
θ' is the new effective resolution.

 

For example:

A 10% obstruction (C = 0.1) increases resolution limit by ~0.5% (barely noticeable).
A 30% obstruction (C = 0.3) increases resolution limit by ~5%.
A 40% obstruction (C = 0.4) increases resolution limit by ~9%.

 

2. Effect on Contrast (Modulation Transfer Function, MTF)
Contrast in a telescope is best represented by the Modulation Transfer Function (MTF), which describes how well a system transmits different spatial frequencies.

For a telescope with a central obstruction, the contrast transfer function is:

MTF = (1 - C²) * MTF_unobstructed
where:

C = d / D again represents the obstruction ratio.
Impact on Contrast

Small obstructions (C < 0.3) → Small reduction in contrast for low and mid spatial frequencies (good planetary detail).
Larger obstructions (C > 0.3) → Stronger contrast loss in high spatial frequencies (fine planetary detail, lunar surface).

For example:

C = 0.1 (10%) → Contrast is reduced by ~1% (barely noticeable).
C = 0.3 (30%) → Contrast loss is ~9%.
C = 0.4 (40%) → Contrast loss is ~16%.


  • c1ferrari likes this

#32 Eddgie

Eddgie

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 29,810
  • Joined: 01 Feb 2006

Posted 05 February 2025 - 09:28 AM

Hello Eddgie,

Thank you for that post. Can you explain me why a 90mm obstruction would mean only 164mm of free aperture? I thought that I would have to compare the free area rather than the free radius (since the obstruction is in the center the area of obstruction is not 35.4% but rather 12,9%).

Thank you,
Arnheim

 It is a lazy rule of thumb and it only applies to visual use of the instrument, not imaging and it applies to contrast transfer, not resolution (resolution is almost completely a function of aperture and aperture alone. Even a poor instrument with a large obstruction will have the same resolution (the size of the Airy Disk) as a perfect one.

 

 

 

When there is larger obstruction, you can subtract the diameter of the obstruction from the diameter of the primary, and what is left is what most people call the "free aperture" or "clear aperture" of the system, meaning the amount of aperture that is free or clear of obstruction.

In a refractor, the only diffraction source is the aperture itself, but in a reflector, there is diffraction that comes from the secondary so when the light converges on the primary, it is already very slightly diffracted before it gets to the primary, where it is diffracted a second time. 

This is nothing to do with light transmission. It only factors in the diffraction surfaces and does not care about light gathering. 

 

Contrast transfer is different from resolution of a point source. It is really looking at the ability of the system to preserve contrast and the best way to show that is using the contrast retention of line pairs of increasing frequency. 

The chart is a model of the Modulation Transfer Function (MTF) of the system.  To use the chart, you use the vertical axis as the starting contrast. Most people will use this assuming 100% contrast and is based on alternating black and white sinusoidal line pairs starting at 1 line pair per millimeter, and increasing in frequency linearly until you reach the maximum number of line pairs the system can resolve (this is based on focal ratio). You can make the vertical axis any starting contrast you like.  If starting contrast is 100%, then at the point on the vertical axis where the line passes .5 on its way to 0, then the contrast of the lines compared to one another will be only 50%. If the contrast of the lines actually started at 20% (typical of many features on Jupiter) on the vertical axis, then at the point the line where it crosses .5, for that frequency, the contest you would see would be reduced to 10%, which is very near the contast sensitivity of the dark adapted human eye.  

 

Even a perfect system (represented in the chart by the red line) will lose contrast as the frequency goes up. On the left, it will show that virtually all telescopes will resolve 1 line pair per millimeter at the focal plane with 100% contrast transfer.  As the frequency goes up though (shown in the horizontal axis) some of the energy is removed from the Airy Disk and directed around it.  The horizontal axis shows the change in contrast between the lines in the pair.  The white line starts to become less white and wider, while the black line becomes less black and narrower. When the line pairs have both become 50% grey, you have reached the maximum linear resolution of the system. 

 

The left side is the frequency range that would be considered the "Important Visual range" because once the lines get very close together, the human eye lacks the contrast sensitivity to separate them. A camera though, has much better contrast sensitivity (down to 1% or 2%) so it can separate lines of much higher frequency than the eye can. 

 

 

So, the free or clear aperture means free or clear of obstruction and the bigger the obstruction, the more contrast is lost in the important visual frequencies. 

 

The rule of thumb for free or clear aperture is just a quick way to estimate the contrast transfer of a larger obstructed system as compared to that of a smaller aperture with no obstruction when used visually.  The larger aperture will almost always resolve finer detail that is beyond the contrast and resolution of the human eye.

 

If we assumed that both scopes could resolve 100 line pair, then down to about .33, or 33 lines per millimeter, both modeled systems would show roughly the same contrast for the lines, which would about 36% or so from the 100% starting contrast. Rather than appear as white lines on a black background, they would appear as light grey lines on a dark grey background, making them harder to see.  Now if the lines started 20% contrast, at this point they would be shown with only about 7.2% contrast. The white lines would appear as a grey that was only a bit less grey than the black lines, which are now also grey, just a bit darker and at 7.2 contrast, the eye would have difficulty seperating the lines.  The perfect instrument would be showing black and white lines starting with 100% contrast as having about 57% contrast, and the lines starting with 20% contrast would show at 11.4% contrast at this same frequency, and in this case, the would appear with enough contrast that would be visible to almost anyone.

  

That is why contrast transfer is important to understand.  It lets you visualize how well to different instruments would show the contrast of different size features starting with different levels of contrast.  The shadow of Ganymede crossing Jupiter is a very high contrast feature, but the starting contrast of a festoon is usually maybe 15%.  Even though they are fairy large features, the more contrast the instrument loses, the harder they will be able to see visually, even though a camera will easily show them. 


Edited by Eddgie, 05 February 2025 - 09:51 AM.

  • noisejammer, Dr Arnheim and c1ferrari like this

#33 Dr Arnheim

Dr Arnheim

    Messenger

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 435
  • Joined: 19 May 2024

Posted 05 February 2025 - 12:00 PM

Thank you Eddgie. Very interesting. I learned a lot by your post and I will read further into it.

#34 Lookitup

Lookitup

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,035
  • Joined: 29 Jul 2016
  • Loc: Alemaigne

Posted 05 February 2025 - 01:17 PM

With the SM 125ED it feels like using big binoculars scanning the sky. CS Pete 

Attached Thumbnails

  • IMG_4213.jpg

  • Nerd1 likes this

#35 Eddgie

Eddgie

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 29,810
  • Joined: 01 Feb 2006

Posted 05 February 2025 - 01:43 PM

With the SM 125ED it feels like using big binoculars scanning the sky. CS Pete 

Very nice setup!  



#36 Eddgie

Eddgie

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 29,810
  • Joined: 01 Feb 2006

Posted 05 February 2025 - 02:07 PM

Thank you Eddgie. Very interesting. I learned a lot by your post and I will read further into it.

Contrast transfer seems to not be well understood by most on CN, and the reality is that it is the most important aspect of a telescope's performance. 

 

In addition to modeleing the effects of an obstruction, it can show you how optical errors affect contrast transfer, or how larger and smaller apertures of different designs would compare in terms of contrast transfer.

 

Just for your enjoyment, I am attaching a link to a page that does the above exercise (comparing scopes of different apertures with different design) and a screen capture of the graph the author generated. 

 

I would point out that the chart suggests that a high quality f/9 ED refractor can show better contrast than a 6" f/8  acrhomat, and my own ownership of both of these scope types confirms this to be the case. 

Note also that the author has put in the approximate cut off limits for visual observing, once again noting that for visual use, the lower frequencies are very important because this is the detail that is in range of the human eye.

 

130 v 152.jpg

 

I have extrapolated where my own scope, a 130mm f/7 apo, would fit in terms of performance compared to these other scopes. This data was not provided to me and the 130mm green line was added by me using data provided by the author. As can be seen, the 130mm FPL-53 triplet should have better contrast than many 6" scopes. I have also owned a 6" Astro Physics Triplet, but that scope did not use ED glass at all, and based on but the plot and my experience, the 130 would be equal to that scope, which would be comparable to scope #65 in the graph. 

 

I have repeated this many times and I will say it again. Unless you can afford a 6" FPL-53  or FCD-100 telescope (or some other SD glass), for planets, you are better off with a slighlty smaller triplet using an SD glass. 

 

Anyway, the point is to show you how the MTF lets you compare the performance of different instrument and the attached chart shows an excellent example of this being used to compare a large number of different aperture Apos.

 

Here is the link to the source.  This site is the holy bible of everything to do with amateur astronomy observing equipment. I visit it frequently.  

 

https://www.telescop...romatic_psf.htm


Edited by Eddgie, 05 February 2025 - 04:33 PM.

  • msabochi likes this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics