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Considering a Mount Upgrade for Windy and Cold Conditions: Advice Needed

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#1 NorthScope

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 03:30 PM

Hi everyone,

 

I’ve been using a Sky-Watcher Esprit 120 APO with a fair amount of gear: EFW, EAF, four dew heaters, and extra insulation to handle the cold. With everything, my setup weighs around 25 kg, mounted on an EQ6-R Pro. I purchased this gear back in 2019 during COVID and have thoroughly enjoyed this hobby ever since.

 

However, I’ve been thinking about upgrading my setup to get the most out of the rare clear nights we get here.

 

 

Current Performance:

  • Ideal conditions: In calm weather, even down to -25°C, I get fairly good tracking with RMS in the range of 0.4–0.6.
     
  • Challenging conditions: In moderate winds (5–10 m/s) with gusts up to 25–30 m/s, tracking becomes a challenge. RMS jumps to 1.2–3, and stars often come out slightly elongated in my images.
     

My Questions:

 

  • Would upgrading to a more robust mount (capable of handling 50–100 kg) significantly improve performance in windy conditions? My thinking is that over-dimensioning might stabilize the system, but I’m unsure if that’s true in practice.
     
  • If over-dimensioning is the right move, should I look at premium self-guiding mounts like Planewave, 10Micron, or ASA? Would these help mitigate wind effects, or would I be better served by something more traditional, like upgrading to an EQ8 or CEM120?
     

Other Considerations:

 

  • My EQ6-R Pro has been excellent in extreme temperatures, which is important for my location. Does anyone know how the mentioned mounts (Planewave, 10Micron, ASA, CEM120, etc.) perform in very cold weather?
    Teleskop Mylla IMG_6198.jpg

     

  • If upgrading the mount isn’t likely to help significantly, I might refocus on improving my observatory setup. For example, I usually build snow/ice walls around my igloo observatory for wind protection later in the season (February), but maybe it’s time to invest in a more permanent solution.

I’d appreciate your thoughts and advice on which direction I should take. Thanks in advance!


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#2 Poynting

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 03:33 PM

https://astro-physic...ipph/antarctica


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#3 DuncanM

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 03:53 PM

Hi everyone,

 

I’ve been using a Sky-Watcher Esprit 120 APO with a fair amount of gear: EFW, EAF, four dew heaters, and extra insulation to handle the cold. With everything, my setup weighs around 25 kg, mounted on an EQ6-R Pro. I purchased this gear back in 2019 during COVID and have thoroughly enjoyed this hobby ever since.

 

However, I’ve been thinking about upgrading my setup to get the most out of the rare clear nights we get here.

 

 

Current Performance:

  • Ideal conditions: In calm weather, even down to -25°C, I get fairly good tracking with RMS in the range of 0.4–0.6.
     
  • Challenging conditions: In moderate winds (5–10 m/s) with gusts up to 25–30 m/s, tracking becomes a challenge. RMS jumps to 1.2–3, and stars often come out slightly elongated in my images.
     

My Questions:

 

  • Would upgrading to a more robust mount (capable of handling 50–100 kg) significantly improve performance in windy conditions? My thinking is that over-dimensioning might stabilize the system, but I’m unsure if that’s true in practice.
     
  • If over-dimensioning is the right move, should I look at premium self-guiding mounts like Planewave, 10Micron, or ASA? Would these help mitigate wind effects, or would I be better served by something more traditional, like upgrading to an EQ8 or CEM120?
     

Other Considerations:

 

  • My EQ6-R Pro has been excellent in extreme temperatures, which is important for my location. Does anyone know how the mentioned mounts (Planewave, 10Micron, ASA, CEM120, etc.) perform in very cold weather?

     

  • If upgrading the mount isn’t likely to help significantly, I might refocus on improving my observatory setup. For example, I usually build snow/ice walls around my igloo observatory for wind protection later in the season (February), but maybe it’s time to invest in a more permanent solution.

I’d appreciate your thoughts and advice on which direction I should take. Thanks in advance!

Adding wind protection (and/or a roll off roof observatory) around the pier and mount will be the most cost effective upgrade. My CEM120 does fine in below freezing weather, but it needs wind protection to meet it's specified Periodic Error specifications.

 

An AP mount with the low temperature encoders would be a considerable upgrade.


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#4 NorthScope

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 04:21 PM

Adding wind protection (and/or a roll off roof observatory) around the pier and mount will be the most cost effective upgrade. My CEM120 does fine in below freezing weather, but it needs wind protection to meet it's specified Periodic Error specifications.

 

An AP mount with the low temperature encoders would be a considerable upgrade.

Thank you for your response.

 

Could you please share the weight of the equipment you have mounted on your CEM120? My current EQ6-R Pro is operating over its maximum capacity with a 25 kg payload.

 

Since the CEM120 has a payload capacity of 52 kg ?? , I'm still curious if using a mount with a higher capacity will be stiffer than my current setup and thereby reduce tracking errors.

 

I suspect that building a permanent observatory will be best, but that requires alot more planning, so I still try to get the answer I would like to hear :-)



#5 WadeH237

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 04:27 PM

I live in a windy area (near a wind farm).  Winds up to about 40mph are pretty common.  Much of my imaging is in winds up to 25 or 30mph.  If I couldn't do this, I would lose lots of imaging time.

 

The main point of my response is that the problem involves more than just the mount.  You need to think about everything, starting from the ground underneath, all the way to the tallest part.

 

I typically run 5 minute, unguided exposures at 0.9 arc seconds per pixel, and my stars look great.  I almost never throw out subs due to mount issues, including wind.  But things started out a bit rough.

 

My mount is in a different class than yours.  I have an AP1600-AE.  This is a 220lb capacity mount with absolute encoders that can actively resist motion from the wind.  Despite all that, my initial results were terrible whenever the wind picked up more than about 10mph or so.  I think that my experience is relevant, because the principles are not specific to my mount.

 

Anyway, I'd been using my mount for almost 8 years before moving to where I live now.  In all that time, the mount had been exemplary in its performance.  So much so, that I was quite surprised when I was getting poor results at my new property.  My system should never have been bothered by light wind, so I didn't start my investigation there.

 

I checked everything I could think of in the mount's hardware and software systems, but couldn't find any problems.  I eventually went out and did what I probably should have done on day 1:  I went to the mount in the daytime, bumped it, and checked to see how much it moved and how long it took to settle.

 

I was a bit surprised at how much the mount moved when I bumped it.  The thing is, that mount was absolutely solid.  It was the whole structure that moved.   I use a portable pier with turnbuckles, and when I checked it, the turnbuckles were a bit loose.  That was problem 1.

 

When I tightened the turnbuckles, there was immediate improvement.  My percentage of "keepers" went way up (still frustrating when you are expecting 100%).  But I was still seeing some issues on windier nights.  As a test, I drove my motorhome out into the field and parked it just upwind of the scope.  A few nights of imaging like were great, no matter the wind.  So at least that confirmed my diagnosis of wind as the trigger.

 

At that point, I just accepted the performance of the system.  Instead of pursuing the mount further, I just build a wind break around my imaging site.  I bought a 10'x10'x6' high dog kennel.  It was made of chain link fencing.  When I set it up, I used tarps instead of chain link and anchored it to the ground.  This worked great, and I thought that I was done.

 

The problem with my wind block is that we get lots of wind, and the tarps needed to be replaced more often than I liked.  Still, I kept using it until one day we got some wind that was unusually strong, even for here.  It was enough that my whole house shook, the windows rattled, and the plumbing vents made a sound like blowing over a giant pop bottle.  We had two separate incidents where semis were blown over on a nearby interstate, and I know of two local observatories whose roofs were blown off.  Did I mention that it's windy where I live?

 

On that day, the biggest gust hit when I was in my home office, with a view of my imaging site.  I watched out the window as the wind block tore out of the ground and slid to the mount.  The wind picked it up and over the mount, which it toppled on the way past.  Fortunately, I did not have a scope mounted on it at the time.  The wind block tumbled across the field for about 100 yards, shedding parts the whole way.  The good news is that the mount was unharmed and just needed to be set back up again.

 

So after that experience, I realized that a temporary wind block really wasn't going to be a reasonable solution.  I contacted the manufacturer of the mount, and they confirmed that it should be fine in my conditions.  They've used the same mount in the same conditions and not had problems.  Given that news, I started rethinking the mount.

 

Actually, I started thinking about the pier and the ground that it sits on.  I considered ways to strengthen the turn buckles, but according to the manufacturer, that shouldn't be necessary.  So I looked further down.

 

I've been doing astronomy fairly seriously for over 25 years, with most of my observing done out at dark sky sites.  When I retired, I moved from the city (the Seattle area), to the east side of the mountains.  We get far more clear nights here, and light pollution is not too bad (my home is under Bortle 3 skies when it's dark and transparent).  When I set up in the field, I was in the habit of putting plywood squares under the pier or tripod feet to keep them from slowly sinking.  Since I set up on bare ground here, I just did the same thing.

 

It turns out, that was a big mistake.  The plywood squares work great at the (not windy) remote sites that I use.  But in the wind, they seem to be pretty springy.  To eliminate them as the source of the problem, I dug a hole under the position of each pier foot.  I poured sand into the holes and packed them as best I could.  I then sunk 12" round paving stones into the sand.  I now set the pier up on those paving stones.

 

The result:  Success!  I pretty much don't think about wind anymore when I image, and I'm back to tossing zero subs due to the mount.

 

tl;dr

 

Think about the entire system.  The stuff under your mount is every bit as important as the mount itself.

 

Depending on your budget, there are mounts available that can work just fine in any sane amount of wind (assuming that they, themselves are mounted solidly).

 

If you don't have a big budget, there are two things that I would look at in a mount.

 

First, you want minimal backlash.  If there is backlash in the mount, gusty wind can cause thin, faint trails in the direction of the affected axis.  In some situations, I have seen "barbell" shaped stars when the mount has shifted to each side of the gear mesh in the wind.

 

And second, size matters.  I'm not generally a believer in the "use 50% capacity for imaging" thing.  But in the wind, a mount with twice the capacity needed will be more stable than a smaller mount that is at its limit.  This, of course, assumes that backlash is controlled.

 

I hope that this helps,

-Wade


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#6 auroraTDunn

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 04:50 PM

If you are getting gusts 25-30 m/s then I would look at wind protection for the whole rig! 30+ m/s exposed rigs pretty much are an issue no matter what you have/do. Heck even the cables will be blowing all over the place. Plus you should worry about debris getting blown and then stuck inside your lens hood (pending how wind is hitting the hood, direction wise, it could create pocket hydraulics that keep debris stuck in there but swirling in vorticities, meaning potential wear or even damage to the debris surface.)


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#7 NorthScope

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 04:52 PM

Think about the entire system.  The stuff under your mount is every bit as important as the mount itself.

 

 

First, you want minimal backlash.  If there is backlash in the mount, gusty wind can cause thin, faint trails in the direction of the affected axis.  In some situations, I have seen "barbell" shaped stars when the mount has shifted to each side of the gear mesh in the wind.

 

And second, size matters.  I'm not generally a believer in the "use 50% capacity for imaging" thing.  But in the wind, a mount with twice the capacity needed will be more stable than a smaller mount that is at its limit.  This, of course, assumes that backlash is controlled.

 

I hope that this helps,

-Wade

 

Hi Wade, and thank you for the reply. I started out with a tripod, but after some time with bad imaging, I welded up and mounted a 15 cm ( 6 inches), steel Pipe to the mountain here.. Securing it with three 1/2" bolts. So the setup underneeth the mount is pretty rigid.

 

I have really not tought about backlash , and possibillity for that to increase the error when windy. I will investigate that.

 

Thanks again,

Martin



#8 WadeH237

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 05:05 PM

If you are getting gusts 25-30 m/s then I would look at wind protection for the whole rig! 30+ m/s exposed rigs pretty much are an issue no matter what you have/do.

25-30 meters per second is vastly different from 25-30 miles per hour...

 

Edit:

 

And this is me, looking embarrassed.  The OP was using m/s, not mph.  To that, I say this:

 

At 30 m/s, any gear you care about should be safely outside of the wind.


Edited by WadeH237, 18 January 2025 - 05:07 PM.

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#9 NorthScope

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 05:06 PM

If you are getting gusts 25-30 m/s then I would look at wind protection for the whole rig! 30+ m/s exposed rigs pretty much are an issue no matter what you have/do. Heck even the cables will be blowing all over the place. Plus you should worry about debris getting blown and then stuck inside your lens hood (pending how wind is hitting the hood, direction wise, it could create pocket hydraulics that keep debris stuck in there but swirling in vorticities, meaning potential wear or even damage to the debris surface.)

 

Thank you for your response. Fortunately, debris isn't a significant concern in my location. Situated atop a ridge, most structures are securely fastened, and there are few trees around. However, I'm concerned about the potential impact of wind on a dome observatory, especially when the shutter is open. In the valley below, partial roofs occasionally get blown off, which makes me hesitant about a roll-off roof (ROR) observatory. One option I'm considering is constructing windbreak walls using masonry to shield the setup from strong winds.



#10 NorthScope

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 05:17 PM

25-30 meters per second is vastly different from 25-30 miles per hour...

 

Edit:

 

And this is me, looking embarrassed.  The OP was using m/s, not mph.  To that, I say this:

 

At 30 m/s, any gear you care about should be safely outside of the wind.

It is not the normal wind speed, but there ate Wind gusts that comes up to that speed here. And usually when there are clear skies...

 

The normal (Steady wind are about 5 to 11 m/s ( 11 to 24 miles per hour (If my calculations atre right)) , and some gusts up to 15 and 17 m/s ( 33 - 38 miles / hour)



#11 WadeH237

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 05:49 PM

Your normal conditions do sound similar to mine.

 

Most of our higher-than-normal wind conditions happen during the day, so don't affect imaging.  The rig has experienced gusts into the 75mph range, and it stays upright.  If we got unexpected winds overnight, it might spoil some exposures, but would likely not damage anything - and that's what matters most to me.



#12 DuncanM

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 07:15 PM

Thank you for your response.

 

Could you please share the weight of the equipment you have mounted on your CEM120? My current EQ6-R Pro is operating over its maximum capacity with a 25 kg payload.

 

Since the CEM120 has a payload capacity of 52 kg ?? , I'm still curious if using a mount with a higher capacity will be stiffer than my current setup and thereby reduce tracking errors.

 

I suspect that building a permanent observatory will be best, but that requires alot more planning, so I still try to get the answer I would like to hear :-)

I have a 10in F10 SCT mounted on it, along with a cameras. etc for about 15-20kg of weight (excluding the counterweights).

 

I also have an EQ6-R and the CEM120 is a greatly superior mount in every detail and it has about 1/3 the Periodic Error.


Edited by DuncanM, 18 January 2025 - 07:19 PM.


#13 dmilone

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 07:21 PM

Wow NorthScope, you really are way up north. I see also by your photo that you might also benefit from working on your cable management. (I need to work on mine too).

A G-11 might be a bit of an upgrade. But if you have the money, an AP Mach 2 could be a terrific upgrade. I’d love to get my hands on one of those. There is a waiting list for a new one. Or you might find one slightly used.

#14 KGoodwin

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 07:57 PM

I love everything I've ever bought from Astro-Physics, but if I were in Europe like you are I'd go with a 10u mount.



#15 LLEEGE

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 09:30 PM

You’re going to want encoders


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