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Strange Artifacts in Processed Image

Astrophotography Beginner Imaging Reflector
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#1 RadiantDust

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Posted 18 January 2025 - 11:53 PM

Last night I captured about 3 hours worth of data on Jones-Emberson 1, only to be disappointed and frustrated to find that after calibrating and stacking, there were obvious dust motes that somehow my flats did not completely correct. Furthermore, after a background removal with GraXpert, the image became quite blotchy and a strange horizontal band of light is present. I've not encountered these issues previously, and the only thing that has changed between my last session and this one is the addition of an OAG and guide cam. Does anyone know what might be the cause? Thanks!

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Edited by RadiantDust, 18 January 2025 - 11:55 PM.

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#2 John Berger

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Posted 19 January 2025 - 01:36 AM

I think I can help

 

I don't know what's causing the dust mote correction problem, maybe focuser sag like what italic says in post #4

 

the line could possibly be a reflection off your OAG prism (I could be very wrong though); test if it is by doing constant flat previews (0.5s - 1s exposure flats, continuously, and make sure the light source is bright enough); while the flats are coming in, gently move the prism stalk inward and outward to see the effect it makes; if it is that, then move your stalk outward enough to have the reflection out of the frame

 

the line could also be an inconsistency in your flat field, caused by a crappy flat method; cheap LED panels sometimes have these lines (sometimes, apparently not even strobing), which you can't see with the naked eye, but your camera will pick up; I had this line problem in my tracing panel (marketed as non-strobing); after using a white T-shirt as a light diffuser between the scope and panel, the problem went away.

 

the messed up background could be internal reflections or some dew on your camera window; I suggest flocking the tube, and since you have the 533, which I think does not have the window heater, I also suggest getting a dew strap to heat the focuser, so that that heat radiates to the camera window

 

generally, I wouldn't even recommend anyone buying the C8-N; when you progress in this hobby, you'll see that it has some problems, usually typical newtonian problems, but, also some that are specific to this telescope model by Celestron.

 

I also suggest not buying a coma corrector if you have not changed the stock focuser also to a lower profile one, my first coma corrector did not allow my camera to get into focus with my stock focuser

 

just, keep in mind that this OTA can be bought for 250 euros, and is not intended for astrophotography; not trying to discourage you, but I have had months of experience with this scope, and am not happy with the outcome, even after modding.

 

my 2 cents.


Edited by John Berger, 19 January 2025 - 04:12 AM.


#3 vidrazor

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Posted 19 January 2025 - 02:18 AM

Which OAG? There's been some talk of a Player One OAG leaking light through the prism shaft opening, and I could honestly see any OAG doing the same. Player One has addressed the issue, and it's very unlikely to happen in the first place unless there's a stray local light source, but check your OAG for light leaks.



#4 italic

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Posted 19 January 2025 - 02:49 AM

The embossing effect is from a mismatch between lights and flats, caused by some shift between taking lights and flats. Most often that is by rotating the camera very slightly, but sometimes is caused by sag in the focuser. I see dust rings all over the image and they all have a dark ring on the left edge, which means they are all shifting in the same direction and roughly the same amount. I would think this is focuser sag over an accidental camera knock. You're using a newt, which likely has a low-profile focuser, and a mono camera, presumably with a filter wheel or drawer. A wheel will add a significant amount of weight and the focuser is likely not quite up to the task. An OAG also adds weight, but it's usually not significant enough to cause this amount of sag. You can nail this down (mostly) pretty easily with a few shots across the sky.

The standard configuration of a newtonian imaging system is to put the camera facing the mount to reduce inertial moment arm, so I will assume you are doing this. Start by focusing on Polaris with the camera in a neutral position facing down. Slew to due east at about 45 degrees altitude and take some lights and flats. Slew to the opposite side on the west and take more lights and flats. Calibrate your east lights with the east flats. They should calibrate perfectly. Now calibrate your east lights with your west flats. I expect you will see the embossed rings again and this is a sure sign of sag. Your rings should have a similar pattern of dark on one side and light on the other. If you calibrate your west lights with east flats, you should see the opposite. If do see this, you have nailed down the change to a shifting light cone. Remember, this is a change in the order of microns, so not something you can see with your eye; you can really only see it in the image.

To make it somewhat more complicated, newtonians have this persnickety thing in the optics called a secondary mirror, and these may also sag under shifting gravity. (Just wait till you get to SCTs...) The test for this is to use a collimating laser and swing the scope from east to west and see if the laser returns true to center. The laser is almost weightless in any focuser so won't cause the sag that a large camera and wheel will.

What's the solution? Take flats on whichever side of the sky you're imaging on. The goal is to let the focuser sag in the same direction for both lights and flats. If you image on both sides of the meridian, take flats for both sides. It's a minor pain, but sometimes it's easier (especially cheaper) than buying a premium focuser like a Moonlite or Feathertouch or Optec.

As for the background extraction, I don't have much to offer in the way of getting GXP to behave better, but I will offer the alternatives built into PI: ABE, DBE, Gradient Correction and Multiscale Gradient Correction processes. ABE and DBE are the older methods that deal with sample placement and model generation. GC and MGC are more recent additions with notably different workflows than ABE/DBE. Try playing with GC first and see if you can get a good result. MGC is a pretty complex addition to the workflow that isn't intuitive or easy to use, but will result in better results if your target is in its coverage area (it's a part of the MARS database project).

The cause could be a simple light leak, which involves just plugging all the holes that light might seep through (be warned, that can be many, many places). To nail this down, you can put a solid cover over the aperture and shine a flashlight into the scope from any possible joint in the imaging train or near the primary mirror. Set your capture program to continually expose in short exposures at high gain and watch the screen as you move the light around the scope. I found a huge leak in my focuser between the draw tube and the main focuser body. There were no baffles to block light, and plenty of space for bearings to contact the tube, hence a recipe for major light leaks. I covered it with felt and haven't had an issue with it since, and I need to make covers for my other focusers that have the same issue (they're all Moonlites).

By the way! It looks like you have a good start to the image. I'm interested to see how the final image turns out because your data looks really low-noise, especially for a low hour count of 3 hours. Good job and keep going!

Edited by italic, 19 January 2025 - 03:18 AM.


#5 RadiantDust

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Posted 19 January 2025 - 12:32 PM

I think I can help

 

I don't know what's causing the dust mote correction problem, maybe focuser sag like what italic says in post #4

 

the line could possibly be a reflection off your OAG prism (I could be very wrong though); test if it is by doing constant flat previews (0.5s - 1s exposure flats, continuously, and make sure the light source is bright enough); while the flats are coming in, gently move the prism stalk inward and outward to see the effect it makes; if it is that, then move your stalk outward enough to have the reflection out of the frame

 

the line could also be an inconsistency in your flat field, caused by a crappy flat method; cheap LED panels sometimes have these lines (sometimes, apparently not even strobing), which you can't see with the naked eye, but your camera will pick up; I had this line problem in my tracing panel (marketed as non-strobing); after using a white T-shirt as a light diffuser between the scope and panel, the problem went away.

 

the messed up background could be internal reflections or some dew on your camera window; I suggest flocking the tube, and since you have the 533, which I think does not have the window heater, I also suggest getting a dew strap to heat the focuser, so that that heat radiates to the camera window

 

generally, I wouldn't even recommend anyone buying the C8-N; when you progress in this hobby, you'll see that it has some problems, usually typical newtonian problems, but, also some that are specific to this telescope model by Celestron.

 

I also suggest not buying a coma corrector if you have not changed the stock focuser also to a lower profile one, my first coma corrector did not allow my camera to get into focus with my stock focuser

 

just, keep in mind that this OTA can be bought for 250 euros, and is not intended for astrophotography; not trying to discourage you, but I have had months of experience with this scope, and am not happy with the outcome, even after modding.

 

my 2 cents.

I'll do some tests with the OAG prism. For this session I just did sky flats with a white t-shirt.

I am noticing some issues with this OTA too, particularly that its focuser is rather sloppy. I've accepted that if I want to keep using this scope I'll have to replace it with a better one, probably a 2-speed crayford, and especially something that I can attach an EAF to. The spider also seems rather flimsy. The only issue is I'd prefer not to go any faster than f/5 and for the photometry work I aim to do I'd like to keep the aperture size. But it seems most Newtonian astrographs are f/4. Do you have any recommendations?

 

Which OAG? There's been some talk of a Player One OAG leaking light through the prism shaft opening, and I could honestly see any OAG doing the same. Player One has addressed the issue, and it's very unlikely to happen in the first place unless there's a stray local light source, but check your OAG for light leaks.

It's the ZWO OAG with 8mm prism.

 

The embossing effect is from a mismatch between lights and flats, caused by some shift between taking lights and flats. Most often that is by rotating the camera very slightly, but sometimes is caused by sag in the focuser. I see dust rings all over the image and they all have a dark ring on the left edge, which means they are all shifting in the same direction and roughly the same amount. I would think this is focuser sag over an accidental camera knock. You're using a newt, which likely has a low-profile focuser, and a mono camera, presumably with a filter wheel or drawer. A wheel will add a significant amount of weight and the focuser is likely not quite up to the task. An OAG also adds weight, but it's usually not significant enough to cause this amount of sag. You can nail this down (mostly) pretty easily with a few shots across the sky.

The standard configuration of a newtonian imaging system is to put the camera facing the mount to reduce inertial moment arm, so I will assume you are doing this. Start by focusing on Polaris with the camera in a neutral position facing down. Slew to due east at about 45 degrees altitude and take some lights and flats. Slew to the opposite side on the west and take more lights and flats. Calibrate your east lights with the east flats. They should calibrate perfectly. Now calibrate your east lights with your west flats. I expect you will see the embossed rings again and this is a sure sign of sag. Your rings should have a similar pattern of dark on one side and light on the other. If you calibrate your west lights with east flats, you should see the opposite. If do see this, you have nailed down the change to a shifting light cone. Remember, this is a change in the order of microns, so not something you can see with your eye; you can really only see it in the image.

To make it somewhat more complicated, newtonians have this persnickety thing in the optics called a secondary mirror, and these may also sag under shifting gravity. (Just wait till you get to SCTs...) The test for this is to use a collimating laser and swing the scope from east to west and see if the laser returns true to center. The laser is almost weightless in any focuser so won't cause the sag that a large camera and wheel will.

What's the solution? Take flats on whichever side of the sky you're imaging on. The goal is to let the focuser sag in the same direction for both lights and flats. If you image on both sides of the meridian, take flats for both sides. It's a minor pain, but sometimes it's easier (especially cheaper) than buying a premium focuser like a Moonlite or Feathertouch or Optec.

As for the background extraction, I don't have much to offer in the way of getting GXP to behave better, but I will offer the alternatives built into PI: ABE, DBE, Gradient Correction and Multiscale Gradient Correction processes. ABE and DBE are the older methods that deal with sample placement and model generation. GC and MGC are more recent additions with notably different workflows than ABE/DBE. Try playing with GC first and see if you can get a good result. MGC is a pretty complex addition to the workflow that isn't intuitive or easy to use, but will result in better results if your target is in its coverage area (it's a part of the MARS database project).

The cause could be a simple light leak, which involves just plugging all the holes that light might seep through (be warned, that can be many, many places). To nail this down, you can put a solid cover over the aperture and shine a flashlight into the scope from any possible joint in the imaging train or near the primary mirror. Set your capture program to continually expose in short exposures at high gain and watch the screen as you move the light around the scope. I found a huge leak in my focuser between the draw tube and the main focuser body. There were no baffles to block light, and plenty of space for bearings to contact the tube, hence a recipe for major light leaks. I covered it with felt and haven't had an issue with it since, and I need to make covers for my other focusers that have the same issue (they're all Moonlites).

By the way! It looks like you have a good start to the image. I'm interested to see how the final image turns out because your data looks really low-noise, especially for a low hour count of 3 hours. Good job and keep going!

 

I don't yet have a filter wheel, but I do have one on the way. I already suspected I have focuser tilt issues as many of my images seem to have a decent amount of tilt in them when analyzed in siril, although I've not yet taken the time to rule out sensor tilt. I'll definitly go around and try to patch any light leaks. At the very least that should help boost contrast.

 

Also thanks! They were 2 minute subs each and I have a Bortle 5 sky. I'm not sure if there will be a final image if I can't get these artifacts dealt with, this data might just be cooked. :/
 



#6 RadiantDust

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Posted 19 January 2025 - 04:07 PM

After some testing, I did find a small amount of light leak coming from the focuser mounting plate, so I covered the seam with electrical tape and that more or less eliminated it. Surprisingly there was little to no light leak coming from around the OAG. Perhaps as expected, the vast majority comes from the primary mirror cell. I'll have to fashion some kind of cover for it. But I also realized another thing that could be the culprit behind the light streak; in order to reach focus with my optical train, the focuser needs to be racked almost all the way in, so much so that it intrudes somewhat into the light path. For whatever reason Celestron painted the draw tube a silvery grey, which means it's probably reflecting a ton of light all over the place. I suspect this might be what's causing the weird streak when I stack my lights together.

 

This really highlights the fact that I ought to just replace the focuser. I've been looking on and off for a good replacement but it seems most of them require me to drill new holes in the tube. I keep coming back to the Moonlite focusers but they're incredibly expensive. Are there any alternatives that would fit my scope, are compatible with an EAF, and won't blow my budget?



#7 vidrazor

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Posted 19 January 2025 - 06:24 PM

For whatever reason Celestron painted the draw tube a silvery grey, which means it's probably reflecting a ton of light all over the place. I suspect this might be what's causing the weird streak when I stack my lights together.

You know, that's really weird, my friend just bought an Explore Scientific 102mm triplet refractor, and it's focus tube is also gray! I couldn't believe it! You should do as he will and get some Rust-Oleum Stops Rust Flat Black Oil-Based Industrial Enamel Paint, or similar, and paint the interior wall of the focuser tube. I have used this paint myself on the primary baffle of a C90 Mak that had hideous internal reflections, and it did an incredible just of getting rid of it. I've also used it on extension tubes whose anodized interiors are still way too reflective.

 

However I don't understand the brain fart of these manufacturers not painting all of the internal baffling of a telescope!


Edited by vidrazor, 20 January 2025 - 04:13 AM.


#8 John Berger

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Posted 19 January 2025 - 07:25 PM

After some testing, I did find a small amount of light leak coming from the focuser mounting plate, so I covered the seam with electrical tape and that more or less eliminated it. Surprisingly there was little to no light leak coming from around the OAG. Perhaps as expected, the vast majority comes from the primary mirror cell. I'll have to fashion some kind of cover for it. But I also realized another thing that could be the culprit behind the light streak; in order to reach focus with my optical train, the focuser needs to be racked almost all the way in, so much so that it intrudes somewhat into the light path. For whatever reason Celestron painted the draw tube a silvery grey, which means it's probably reflecting a ton of light all over the place. I suspect this might be what's causing the weird streak when I stack my lights together.

 

This really highlights the fact that I ought to just replace the focuser. I've been looking on and off for a good replacement but it seems most of them require me to drill new holes in the tube. I keep coming back to the Moonlite focusers but they're incredibly expensive. Are there any alternatives that would fit my scope, are compatible with an EAF, and won't blow my budget?

no, no, about the drawtube, that's not what's causing the line

 

the drawtube intrusion does not do that; at most, it will cause some small irregular flares from stars, not any large things like a line

 

yeah, I remember the silver painted drawtube, I know it doesn't help; but to me, it's not strange that they didn't paint it black because they were only thinking about people using the scope visually (I hope)

 

when I replaced my focuser (upgrade was a waste of money), I did have to drill holes in my tube, and I eyeballed where I think the focuser should be, relative the secondary mirror (still didn't get it perfectly right, lol)

 

if you want a good performing scope that's F/5 or slower and is not a pain to use, a refractor is an option I think (best option in my opinion), like an Askar 120 APO, and the newtonians from Germany (on TS-optics website; they sell customizable ones too, so you can choose the focuser you want and some other stuff), also, the maksutov newtonian by Skywatcher, I've heard that scope does well too

 

there are also SCTs, I've heard good things about the Edge scopes, but cannot recommend any reducer for the Edge


Edited by John Berger, 19 January 2025 - 07:29 PM.


#9 italic

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Posted 23 January 2025 - 11:52 PM

no, no, about the drawtube, that's not what's causing the line

 

the drawtube intrusion does not do that; at most, it will cause some small irregular flares from stars, not any large things like a line

You can still absolutely get stray light entering the draw tube without going through the optics, which is often troublesome with coma correctors that sit deep inside the scope. The solution there is to put an extension on the top (aperture side) of the draw tube that shades the bottom (mirror side) at the most extreme angles of entry. In other words, if you look into the draw tube from any angle through the aperture, you should never see into the draw tube. That means no light can enter directly and must go through the optics, where it will travel through properly. This could be the solution, but I'd try painting the tube flat black first and see if that solves the stray light. It could be as simple as the paint isn't dark enough. In general it's best to work the easiest solutions first, especially as they're also usually the cheapest.


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#10 John Berger

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Posted 24 January 2025 - 04:08 PM

You can still absolutely get stray light entering the draw tube without going through the optics, which is often troublesome with coma correctors that sit deep inside the scope. The solution there is to put an extension on the top (aperture side) of the draw tube that shades the bottom (mirror side) at the most extreme angles of entry. In other words, if you look into the draw tube from any angle through the aperture, you should never see into the draw tube. That means no light can enter directly and must go through the optics, where it will travel through properly. This could be the solution, but I'd try painting the tube flat black first and see if that solves the stray light. It could be as simple as the paint isn't dark enough. In general it's best to work the easiest solutions first, especially as they're also usually the cheapest.

I agree

 

one person saw that using an M42 - M48 ring at the tip of the coma corrector (scope side), worked to reduce the internal reflections (in that person's case, an arc or ring in the image)

 

so I think, adding spacers to the coma corrector could work a lot better

 

in my own case, flocking the whole tube, and covering the focuser with a sock reduced internal reflections a lot, but I still had a frequent rainbow/arc or two (and only with one of my two coma correctors), and I couldn't figure out what was causing it

 

at that point, after a lot of thinking and making theories, I found out my problem must be related to the drawtube/coma corrector surfaces, I was going to test it by adding the flocked M48 spacers to the coma corrector, but I ended up not testing and just giving up, because I always generally hated my C8-N (I don't trust the mirror quality also, considering how cheap the OTA can be bought new); I plan to maybe use it for beginner planetery imaging, or just visual, if I can find a cheap mount for it




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