50 replies to this topic

[jmillsbss]

Sleeping on an air mattress is as cold as sleeping directly on the ground.  They provide cushion, but no insulation.  If you use one, you will need to put insulation between you and the mattress

Ok. That was what I was thinking too

[astrohamp]

Some air mattresses do have an insulation factor.  This one R7, and this one R5.

 

Spendy yes, Comfortable yes.  My sleep is worth it which is why I use even more insulation between my MondoKing 3D and me.  I used to use a 1/2" thick Ensolite foam pad backpacking.  Worked quite well, heavy, stiff when winter camping. 

[jmillsbss]

Some air mattresses do have an insulation factor.  This one R7, and this one R5.

 

Spendy yes, Comfortable yes.  My sleep is worth it which is why I use even more insulation between my MondoKing 3D and me.  I used to use a 1/2" thick Ensolite foam pad backpacking.  Worked quite well, heavy, stiff when winter camping. 

Very nice!

[jupiter122]

Last year, week of the new moon in May, we attended the Deep South Star Party at the observatory at French Camp, MS.  Dark skies and great weather.  We were so fortunate as this was the weekend where we had to crazy aurora borealis that was so active people saw it well south of us but it was the first time I'd ever seen it. Special.  My then 10 year old son and I went, borrowed a tent, carried too much gear and not enough clothes!  In the vein of learning from one's mistakes, I have a few questions, as we begin to prepare for this year's event, which is the last week in April.  We will in all likelihood be observing DSOs visually as well as some longer focal length broadband imaging.

 

As far as sleeping.  We know to take a foam blanket or air mattress.  Gotta get off the ground.  Never again!

 

But as for the tent, we knew that we had to respect others dark-adapted eyes as much as possible.  We were pretty isolated, maybe 75 feet from the nearest other observer.  Everything was red lights, except for my son's iPad and frequent need to turn on the camping lantern.  Not the Coleman type.  This is a battery powered light that has a number of features, the most offensive that it has a bright lantern setting that is too bright for star parties, apparently.  The only guy in line of sight of us was the only guy on our side that was doing visual.  He came over and told us we were too bright, we apologized and didn't use the lantern again.  The question is, is there any way to know, if I buy another tent, whether or not it can allow lights to be on inside without emitting light or making the whole tent glow from outside?

 

Another thing, heat.  It was cold by 3 or 4 o'clock.  Really cold.  Last year the event was the first week of May, this year it's the last week of April.  Not too much earlier, and certainly no warmer.   We had taken plenty of clothes for the outdoors, but something happens when you get in the tent and lay down.  Like I said, not having a blanket for a mattress and instead a couple of foam yoga mats or an inflatable will help a lot, but is there a reasonably safe, and not too bright, way to heat the space?  I use a portable propane heater in my observatory and have built a very safe base for it to prevent tipping.  Plus, it goes out if tipped or even jostled too much, anyway.  I use it to heat my warm room in the observatory when imaging but can't use it in the telescope space when doing visual, especially for dim DSOs because it's pretty bright.  Planets aren't as bad and don't require as much dark adapted vision, but I know others feel differently, and I want to be respectful of them.

 

The site has ample 110v power, every 25' or so, so maybe there's an idea for heating, maybe not.  We didn't realize we'd have access to AC before we got there.

 

Those are my main concerns/questions.  How to prevent violating others dark adaptation with devices or flashlights INSIDE the tent and how to heat the tent without a heater putting out a ton of light?

 

I think the answer to both questions is a tent that has light proof walls/roof.... but when I google it, nothing comes up except the same regular tents.   Thank you for your time!

As someone who has lived in New England for 40+ years, I am chuckling at your reference to nighttime temperatures in  May in Mississippi as "really cold."  My friend, you don't know cold!  I was also going to say that those yoga mats won't do diddly to keep you warm when you are sleeping, but then again, you since you are talking April or May in Mississippi, I could be wrong!

 

Tim

[astrohamp]

Cold is relative to folks and once one settles in to a place, goes quiet, still, dormant, asleep...cold can and will take over like tides in the Bay of Fundy unless prepared for it.

[jupiter122]

Sleeping on an air mattress is as cold as sleeping directly on the ground.  They provide cushion, but no insulation.  If you use one, you will need to put insulation between you and the mattress

Well, as an avid outdoor camper who has camped in freezing temperatures many times, including as low as 0 degree F,  I can tell you that that is absolutely NOT true. Even thin air mattresses offer an R value about 2, which is noticeably better than sleeping on the ground.  Sure, additional layers that add insulation are better, but any cushion of air is better than sleeping on the ground. If you don't believe me, just search "winter camping" on youtube and you'll find dozens and dozens of videos that discuss the importance of not sleeping directly on the ground. 

 

Tim

Edited by jupiter122, 30 January 2025 - 09:24 PM.

[jmillsbss]

As someone who has lived in New England for 40+ years, I am chuckling at your reference to nighttime temperatures in May in Mississippi as "really cold." My friend, you don't know cold! I was also going to say that those yoga mats won't do diddly to keep you warm when you are sleeping, but then again, you since you are talking April or May in Mississippi, I could be wrong!

Tim

Comfort is relative. I can probably stand heat better than cold. I hate cold. I don't WANT to know what it feels like to be really cold. You guys can have it!

[jupiter122]

Comfort is relative. I can probably stand heat better than cold. I hate cold. I don't WANT to know what it feels like to be really cold. You guys can have it!

True enough. But, sorry, I am working on a way to blow some of the cold South!

 

Tim

[jmillsbss]

True enough. But, sorry, I am working on a way to blow some of the cold South!

 

Tim

Speaking of relative.... My wife and I have nearly come to blows on the thermostat.  Temps can be 64 degrees outside and she wants the heat on inside set on 72 and a fire built.  A 72 degree day and the AC is on 64.  What about that makes sense?  But she seriously feels discomfort in that narrow window between the mid-60s and mid-70s.

 

She always reminds me that one can experience hypothermia with the right conditions and an ambient temperature below the mid 60s.  I've tried to explain how that's an outside temp and one has to be wet and exposed enough to drop core body temps below 95 degrees.  She's serious, and is sure she can get hypothermia just sitting on the couch in the living room!!!

 

And the older I get, the less tolerance I have for discomfort.  Like I said, I don't sleep outside very often.  Well, almost never.  Last time I slept outside, before last year's star party, I was probably 10 years old. So, 45 years ago.  I don't have the desire to do it any more often than that either.  You can have the cold.  I'm sleeping in the house, in a bed!  Except for I really hope to go to the star party again event this year, and I'd like to be able to be a little more comfortable, thus the original ask...

 

And I plan on sleeping on an air mattress of some sort, no matter the R-value.  I had a stack of 3 or 4 quilts on the ground and it felt like I was sleeping on a bed of walnuts.  If the air mattress also has some insulating value, all the better.

 

My dad was in the Nat'l Guard and they did some roughing in back in the 70s and 80s at their summer camps.  They were generally on a local-ish military base, with barracks and facilities, but had to "simulate" from time to time. He said they were taught to dig up the ground with a pick/shovel and "soften" the ground a bit.  That's a great idea, making a softer bed, but I don't think the observatory complex that hosts the star party would appreciate us digging up the well kept grassy areas in the observing field.  I'll have an air mattress.  And a cold weather sleeping bag, at the very least!

 

Thanks for your helpful comments, and I think you were saying you wished you had the cold weather from the south piped up to the northeast, implying it would be warmer than your current weather.  Well, I wish you had it, too.  And maybe we could get the weather from the Bahamas piped into central Mississippi!

[jupiter122]

Speaking of relative.... My wife and I have nearly come to blows on the thermostat.  Temps can be 64 degrees outside and she wants the heat on inside set on 72 and a fire built.  A 72 degree day and the AC is on 64.  What about that makes sense?  But she seriously feels discomfort in that narrow window between the mid-60s and mid-70s.

 

She always reminds me that one can experience hypothermia with the right conditions and an ambient temperature below the mid 60s.  I've tried to explain how that's an outside temp and one has to be wet and exposed enough to drop core body temps below 95 degrees.  She's serious, and is sure she can get hypothermia just sitting on the couch in the living room!!!

 

And the older I get, the less tolerance I have for discomfort.  Like I said, I don't sleep outside very often.  Well, almost never.  Last time I slept outside, before last year's star party, I was probably 10 years old. So, 45 years ago.  I don't have the desire to do it any more often than that either.  You can have the cold.  I'm sleeping in the house, in a bed!  Except for I really hope to go to the star party again event this year, and I'd like to be able to be a little more comfortable, thus the original ask...

 

And I plan on sleeping on an air mattress of some sort, no matter the R-value.  I had a stack of 3 or 4 quilts on the ground and it felt like I was sleeping on a bed of walnuts.  If the air mattress also has some insulating value, all the better.

 

My dad was in the Nat'l Guard and they did some roughing in back in the 70s and 80s at their summer camps.  They were generally on a local-ish military base, with barracks and facilities, but had to "simulate" from time to time. He said they were taught to dig up the ground with a pick/shovel and "soften" the ground a bit.  That's a great idea, making a softer bed, but I don't think the observatory complex that hosts the star party would appreciate us digging up the well kept grassy areas in the observing field.  I'll have an air mattress.  And a cold weather sleeping bag, at the very least!

 

Thanks for your helpful comments, and I think you were saying you wished you had the cold weather from the south piped up to the northeast, implying it would be warmer than your current weather.  Well, I wish you had it, too.  And maybe we could get the weather from the Bahamas piped into central Mississippi!

 

My wife and I are constantly warring over the thermostat. I want it cool, she wants it hot. but from time to time, I’m reminded that we all have different sensitivities to heat and cold, and that helps me stay chill (pun intended)

 

Tim

[ABQJeff]

1) for lighting, put red tape or red film around the lantern, easy to set iPhone or iPad to go to red, use red flashlights. There is never a need for white light.

2) for staying warm for sleeping: sub-zero rated sleeping bag, cot, pad on cot.

3) for staying warm personally: play the game: how many layers can you wear? Including the head.

I have observed down to -5 deg F, and camped down to 2 deg F for astronomy, I wear:
Feet: base layer socks, wool socks, stick on foot heaters, Baffin arctic class snow boots
Legs: long underwear base layer, flannel layer, basketball shorts, sweat pants, nylon running pants, insulated ski pants
Plus heating pads in pockets of running pants
Core/arms: underwear base layer, turtleneck, long sleeve athletic layer, sweater, nylon running pants, insulated jacket, outer ski jacket shell
Hands: thick leather ski glove on left hand, winter fly fishing glove with fold back finger tips, both with heating pads
Head: base layer balaclava, knit balaclava, knit cap on top of that.

Coldest part is right hand (needed to record obs in sky safari), but by switching which finger is exposed and sticking hand in pocket occasionally it is controllable.

Add hot beverages to warm from inside, staying warm is no problem. Trick is to never let yourself get deeply cold (or else face an uphill battle).

[mrflibbles]

Cots! It takes up a bit of room but I will never go back, and neither will my wife. Not just cots though we went to Ikea and bought kids rollup mattresses they are narrower and therefore fit our cots.

[Slartibartfast]

Does anyone use chemical warmers?  You can get them in various sizes.  Maybe one of the big chemical warming patches normally used for lower back pain would be enough heat.  I've used smaller ones in the past, just to keep my feet warm at night.  I think these are safe, no CO release, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I took my son to a star party - it was at Cherry Springs State Park in the spring probably 7 or 8 years ago now.  Being a young teenager, he just *had* to use his phone in the tent and I could see the tent glowing from the outside.  So, we set up a blanket with a stick to hold it up inside the tent, kind of like a tent within a tent, and he used his phone within that.  It worked great.

[astrohamp]

Oh cots! I know well the first at a star party was two bins under a board with thin air mattress that did the job.  Spent a long night at Cherry Springs star party in all night downpour bailing the leaky tent.  I had ponds forming.  I slept dry though.

 

Four cots later I now have bunk beds sleeping under with storage over, small items under it all.  Good to have a 4 person tent with tall walls (quonset hut).  A MondoKing mattress is my latest soft touch for the body.

[jmillsbss]

Does anyone use chemical warmers? You can get them in various sizes. Maybe one of the big chemical warming patches normally used for lower back pain would be enough heat. I've used smaller ones in the past, just to keep my feet warm at night. I think these are safe, no CO release, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I took my son to a star party - it was at Cherry Springs State Park in the spring probably 7 or 8 years ago now. Being a young teenager, he just *had* to use his phone in the tent and I could see the tent glowing from the outside. So, we set up a blanket with a stick to hold it up inside the tent, kind of like a tent within a tent, and he used his phone within that. It worked great.

Yeah we solved our tablet offense in much the same way.

[Phil Perry]

I don't use chemical hand-warmers; I was given for Christmas a pair of electrical hand-warmers. They have a 3.5Ah Li-ion battery (USB-C charged) and are 3.75"x2"x0.625" (95mmx50mmx15mm). There is a display with battery charge and 4 levels of warmth. I no longer have the packaging so I don't know the brand, but they came from Amazon and are made in China, model ST01. I think this is the listing: https://www.amazon.c...c/dp/B0DCG4HQK8 . I have Raynaud's Syndrome and find in subfreezing weather I have to have my hands in my parka pockets wrapped around these things constantly (unless briefly working controls) -- I can't wait until my fingers feel cold, as then it's too late.

[m2k]

I don't use chemical hand-warmers; I was given for Christmas a pair of electrical hand-warmers. They have a 3.5Ah Li-ion battery (USB-C charged) and are 3.75"x2"x0.625" (95mmx50mmx15mm). There is a display with battery charge and 4 levels of warmth. I no longer have the packaging so I don't know the brand, but they came from Amazon and are made in China, model ST01. I think this is the listing: https://www.amazon.c...c/dp/B0DCG4HQK8 . I have Raynaud's Syndrome and find in subfreezing weather I have to have my hands in my parka pockets wrapped around these things constantly (unless briefly working controls) -- I can't wait until my fingers feel cold, as then it's too late.

Daughter bought me a similar pair from Amazon and they are excellent! Four levels of heat and the first is plenty warm...

[Alex McConahay]

Your cold at night problem is related to your not enough clothes problem. Concentrate on Post#36 from ABQJeff.

 

On a cold night, when you have been dressed warm enough for observing, you should have no problem with the cold after slipping into an adequate sleeping bag, shoes off, and everything else you had on while observing still on. \

 

You do not need a lantern of any sort. Let your eyes adapt and you can probably do almost anything without any light at all. And can certainly do so with a red flashlight. Trying to adapt a white light lantern (with colored gels and such) is useless because it is still too much red light. 

 

Remember, the rule is not "Red light is okay" it is "Minimize all light, using dim red light only as needed."

 

Do not use a headlamp while at a star party except perhaps in your tent. You have no idea where that beam is heading when you move your head around. (I mean, you could figure it out, but you will be looking up close while the beam is travelling much further.) And never wear one while talking to somebody.

 

I do not know of any star party that will allow you to use their power to run a heater or such. (Actually, I do know one----Nightfall. But that is because it is at an RV resort where people have their own regular RV campsite----and they can use whatever they like at their campsite.)

 

There is no such thing as a lightproof tent. Even a little opening will let white light spill out in a black-out tent. And unless it truly is black-out, a light inside a tent will make the whole tent glow. 

 

If you are an imager, do something about all those dang pilot lights they have, and of course, dim your screens, and make them work in red. 

 

Alex

[MawkHawk]

A cold weather sleeping bag is a requirement up here in Michigan. I have the sleeping bag below and it's toasty warm and not too expensive, heater or not. It got down into the upper 20's at the Great Lakes Star Gaze last October . I didn't even know until I got out of my sleeping bag.

 

https://www.cabelas....-0-sleeping-bag

[jmillsbss]

Your cold at night problem is related to your not enough clothes problem. Concentrate on Post#36 from ABQJeff.

 

On a cold night, when you have been dressed warm enough for observing, you should have no problem with the cold after slipping into an adequate sleeping bag, shoes off, and everything else you had on while observing still on. \

 

You do not need a lantern of any sort. Let your eyes adapt and you can probably do almost anything without any light at all. And can certainly do so with a red flashlight. Trying to adapt a white light lantern (with colored gels and such) is useless because it is still too much red light. 

 

Remember, the rule is not "Red light is okay" it is "Minimize all light, using dim red light only as needed."

 

Do not use a headlamp while at a star party except perhaps in your tent. You have no idea where that beam is heading when you move your head around. (I mean, you could figure it out, but you will be looking up close while the beam is travelling much further.) And never wear one while talking to somebody.

 

I do not know of any star party that will allow you to use their power to run a heater or such. (Actually, I do know one----Nightfall. But that is because it is at an RV resort where people have their own regular RV campsite----and they can use whatever they like at their campsite.)

 

There is no such thing as a lightproof tent. Even a little opening will let white light spill out in a black-out tent. And unless it truly is black-out, a light inside a tent will make the whole tent glow. 

 

If you are an imager, do something about all those dang pilot lights they have, and of course, dim your screens, and make them work in red. 

 

Alex

Good points all. Many we already apply. The sleeping in the observing clothes, sans footwear, is important. How you sleep in your house next to your warm partner isn't the way one dresses to sleep when camping in April, even when in south Mississippi.

 

I started out in a purely visual focus, only began imaging early 2023.  That was very instructive in how to achieve dark adaptation and how to maintain it.  Amd certainly how to respect other's space and how we all bear a responsibility at star parties to help keep it dark as possible.

 

I recently watched a discussion online where CNer Don Pensack talked about what true dark adapted vision should be.  He said he considers dark adaption (DA) to be at a level where he could detect a black EP cap on a black ground tarp. That's pretty dark. And to protect one's DA eyes to that degree is only as good as whatever the guy next to you is doing to protect his or her dark adapted eyes. Mount rails full of LEDs should have tape over them!  Imagers can forget how bright all those power indicators are!

 

I've got a better "stay warm and stay dark" plan, more so that last year, for sure! Maybe not perfect but it's coming into view.

[Richie2shoes]

I use a DC electric throw blanket.  Put it inside the sleeping bag and sleep on it, not under it.  You'll be warm all night. 

[Michael Rapp]

I use a DC electric throw blanket.  Put it inside the sleeping bag and sleep on it, not under it.  You'll be warm all night. 

I gotta get me one of these!

[Phil Perry]

I'm not sure that electric heating blankets are recommended for sleeping on, as opposed to under. You could end up damaging the wiring, possibly leading to a short. If that leads to a fire, you'll be toasty warm for the rest of your life! :-(

[Alex McConahay]

I'm not sure that electric heating blankets are recommended for sleeping on, as opposed to under. You could end up damaging the wiring, possibly leading to a short. If that leads to a fire, you'll be toasty warm for the rest of your life! :-(

I've been doing it for years. If it were dangerous to lie on top of it, it would be dangerous to fold it, or roll over at night, and a few other things.

 

I think you are safe. 

 

And, if you do not wake up and move when the fire starts, maybe it is time for you to get an early start on the afterlife.

 

Alex

[HenkSB]

You must not have a lot of camping experience.  When camping, being warm, dry and well fed is imperative because the elements have no mercy. 

 

Cold comes from the ground in the first place, so you need a ThermaRest or a more comfortable inflatable air mattress.  I often bring multiple sleeping bags; I have a cheap big flannel one that is actually really good in the cold.  when it freezes, I add a second one inside, sometimes when sleeping in the snow even a third one, a down liner.  Later on, many years ago, at Costco I bought a cheap backpack + down sleeping bag + inflatable air mattress and pillow combo that turned out to be really good.  The down sleeping bag is enough for most scenarios, sometimes a bit too warm in the summer, in which case I still have my down liner that is also a summertime sleeping bag.

 

Do not attempt to heat the tent.  Your body heat and breath help a little but most of all you need warm clothing nothing less than the equivalent of a down jacket and add long johns under your pants and shirt.

 

As to light, there are fantastic USB-chargeable headlamps with various brightness settings and a red filter nowadays.  Much more efficient than a lamp that spreads light in all directions including those that where you don't need and that annoy the stargazing neighbors.  Invest in one for each person, and don't go for the cheapest model.