115 replies to this topic

[Arkade]

At $849, it is a deal. But it hasn't been $849 for a long, long time. It is nice to see that Skywatcher has returned to a more reasonable pricing on these.

Optically they are very good but their long focal length limits their useful for someone like me who uses a 4 inch refractor for both backyard planetary as well as dark sky, deep sky/wide field. Mechanically, they are adequate but not of the build quality of scopes like the Astro-Techs.

The finderscope is listed as an Right Angle finder rather than an RACI and historically, the finder has been an RA. These are OK if they are mounted with the eyepiece vertical because the image is correct top to bottom but flipped left to right. If the finder is at an angle then they are problematic because the field is flipped at that angle.

I would call the eyepieces, usable, the diagonal, adequate.. If I remember correctly, for a number of years, these were $749 and would occasionally go on sale for $649. At $1255, that was too much.

It is nice to see this price reduction, hopefully it is not temporary. The Evostar 80mm and 120mm are also reduced, the 80 mm is $649, and the 120mm is $1799.

The elephant in the room is whether or not, Skywatcher has changed the objectives. Now that they are no longer providing the glass types, it is possible that these are new scopes with FPL-51 class objectives. I doubt that but it is possible and would explain the return to more reasonable pricing.

Jon

I agree, on flo optics, they also are throwing in a focal reducer which usually costs a fair bit of money. The sw 100mm apo does seem the best priced because if you take away price of diagonal, eyepiece etc, you are paying about 500-600£ for a 100mm apo which is near enough impossible to find bramd new.
My only issue is, I have a starfield 80mm apo 560fl which has great optics with a az5 mount. I really am struggling to decide as it isnt a huge jump in aperture, im in a polluted town. Also, im new to this hobby so im thinking, learn from my 80mm apo then upgrade im a couple of years as i also have my 130/650mm newt....hard decisions when there is so much money potentially wasted for such small upgrade,especially since ive hardly used my scopes

[dnrmilspec]

You have answered your own question and brought up another when you said, "...especially since ive hardly used my scopes".

 

If you are not using it then there is no reason to upgrade at all unless the reason you are not using it is disappointment in what you are seeing.  You alluded to that earlier.  If that is the case then I doubt you will see  enough difference between your 80 Apo and the 100 ED to spark more interest in what you are seeing.  In fact, your 130 Newtonian would have done that already if that was the case.

 

So a couple of comments. The best option right now would be for us to review your eyepieces and make sure they are adequate.  If they are, then use both of your scopes and see if you have the "spark".  Increases in aperture, especially from your urban London location are baby steps at best.  Even the difference between an 80mm scope and an 8" one, though significant, is not earth shattering unless the subtle differences are a joy to you.

 

Many, if not most of us here, are unrepentant gear-heads.  We really like trying out new scopes for what they are.  I have something like 15 of them and I am not even a player for the "most scopes" award.    Most of us, however, did not start that way.  We came to love what we could see from our first couple of them and then caught 'gear-itis'.  But this love of seeking better and better views is based on a lot of experience.  We love them as "jewels" or "tools" and, sometimes the rare "both" in one scope.   That experience and love of the game is why I can like my $600.00 6" Achromat enough to have a $600.00 focuser on it.  Some people here will understand that perfectly and some are just shaking their heads at the absurdity of it.  Especially if I remark that I also own a 5.1" Apo Triplet with .982 Strehl optics and equally portable scopes with much larger aperture.   

 

And this is the eternal game we have seen played out on CN every day  for decades.  And I hope it never stops.  So, for now, try your beautiful APO out until you can articulate what it is that is leaving your wanting "more".  Maybe you can do that now.  So I will ask the question.  What is it that you are wanting by buying a new scope?

 

  (And a great many of us here will completely understand if your reply is, "I just love trying newer and better machines.") 

 

By the way.  Your fellow Londoner, Astro-biscuit, has a great website which combines humor with some very interesting comparisons of inexpensive and expensive equipment.  If you have not found him yet, I think you are in for a pleasant surprise. 

[Arkade]

You have answered your own question and brought up another when you said, "...especially since ive hardly used my scopes".

If you are not using it then there is no reason to upgrade at all unless the reason you are not using it is disappointment in what you are seeing. You alluded to that earlier. If that is the case then I doubt you will see enough difference between your 80 Apo and the 100 ED to spark more interest in what you are seeing. In fact, your 130 Newtonian would have done that already if that was the case.

So a couple of comments. The best option right now would be for us to review your eyepieces and make sure they are adequate. If they are, then use both of your scopes and see if you have the "spark". Increases in aperture, especially from your urban London location are baby steps at best. Even the difference between an 80mm scope and an 8" one, though significant, is not earth shattering unless the subtle differences are a joy to you.

Many, if not most of us here, are unrepentant gear-heads. We really like trying out new scopes for what they are. I have something like 15 of them and I am not even a player for the "most scopes" award. Most of us, however, did not start that way. We came to love what we could see from our first couple of them and then caught 'gear-itis'. But this love of seeking better and better views is based on a lot of experience. We love them as "jewels" or "tools" and, sometimes the rare "both" in one scope. That experience and love of the game is why I can like my $600.00 6" Achromat enough to have a $600.00 focuser on it. Some people here will understand that perfectly and some are just shaking their heads at the absurdity of it. Especially if I remark that I also own a 5.1" Apo Triplet with .982 Strehl optics and equally portable scopes with much larger aperture.

And this is the eternal game we have seen played out on CN every day for decades. And I hope it never stops. So, for now, try your beautiful APO out until you can articulate what it is that is leaving your wanting "more". Maybe you can do that now. So I will ask the question. What is it that you are wanting by buying a new scope?

(And a great many of us here will completely understand if your reply is, "I just love trying newer and better machines.")

By the way. Your fellow Londoner, Astro-biscuit, has a great website which combines humor with some very interesting comparisons of inexpensive and expensive equipment. If you have not found him yet, I think you are in for a pleasant surprise.

Really enjoyed what you wrote.
I dont use them due to being away for long periods, weather, etc as I really love to try them out and the more i learn about astronomy, the more i enjoy using the scopes.

The main reason is because i see so many people saying 80mm apo is too small and they also say 130mm newt is also too small. I do love comparing views in my scopes too and seeing differences.

I havent invested in good eyepieces. I only have a svbony 7 21 zoom , a good 6mm and 13mm(70/80 degree fov) and the rest are the free eyepieces from celestron.
I have read a lot about the 28mm rke which apparently shows a floating type image as i dont own such a fl eyepiece, it is about £90.

Thank you for the reply

[daveb2022]

 I really am struggling to decide as it isnt a huge jump in aperture, im in a polluted town. Also, im new to this hobby so im thinking, learn from my 80mm apo

Probably wise to think a bit on a limited aperture scope. I assume by the term I'm in polluted town, you're referring to light pollution. I also seem to think you want to observe from your home?

 

I have a TV85 and a NP101. Neither of my small APOs are what I would suggest someone use in a highly light polluted environment as an "all around performer". Sure, I spent 3 years seeking objects that were in reach of a small refractor, but I always felt like I was missing so much. 

 

My TV85 and Telepod is a pick up with one hand grab and go scope, but also serves as my RV travel companion.

The 101 is more of a dedicated tool. Wide field, reasonable aperture for dark skies, and small enough not to be a burden to haul/setup. But I rarely select one of the refractors on their own. I have a few larger scopes sitting there that perform better in my light polluted environment.

 

At home,the 101 is more of a glorified finder paired with a C925. With my sky conditions, aperture means almost everything. Of course there never seems to be an end to aperture fever unless you are satisfied.

 

Ergonomically, I don't care for dobs much but tend to use scopes as tools and select which scope performs best for the task. I hate to admit it, but sometimes the old dob puts my APO's to shame. M13 in the 101 is a lightly granulated haze, but the XT-8 partially resolves the cluster into individual stars. Planets and the moon are usually better in the dob than my smaller aperture scopes. There are plenty of reasons a dob might not be the best tool, but that probably applies to every scope. The normal complement I set up at home is the C925 with my 101, and the XT-8 is often next to my other scopes. In my backyard, an SCT on a tripod seems most user friendly for me. I would suggest a 8" SCT might be a worthwhile thought for LP skies???

 

The dob is my easiest scope to use on objects traveling directly overhead and close to zenith. It is also a good grab and go scope and takes about a minute to set up. The tube and base are light enough to move so I'm not reluctant to use it.

I do feel the sky conditions (seeing, transparency, LP) point to the best all around scope. I suggest looking at Jupiter using a 6-8" dob and some decent EPs. Judge for yourself. 

 

 

[Arkade]

Probably wise to think a bit on a limited aperture scope. I assume by the term I'm in polluted town, you're referring to light pollution. I also seem to think you want to observe from your home?

I have a TV85 and a NP101. Neither of my small APOs are what I would suggest someone use in a highly light polluted environment as an "all around performer". Sure, I spent 3 years seeking objects that were in reach of a small refractor, but I always felt like I was missing so much.

My TV85 and Telepod is a pick up with one hand grab and go scope, but also serves as my RV travel companion.
The 101 is more of a dedicated tool. Wide field, reasonable aperture for dark skies, and small enough not to be a burden to haul/setup. But I rarely select one of the refractors on their own. I have a few larger scopes sitting there that perform better in my light polluted environment.

At home,the 101 is more of a glorified finder paired with a C925. With my sky conditions, aperture means almost everything. Of course there never seems to be an end to aperture fever unless you are satisfied.

Ergonomically, I don't care for dobs much but tend to use scopes as tools and select which scope performs best for the task. I hate to admit it, but sometimes the old dob puts my APO's to shame. M13 in the 101 is a lightly granulated haze, but the XT-8 partially resolves the cluster into individual stars. Planets and the moon are usually better in the dob than my smaller aperture scopes. There are plenty of reasons a dob might not be the best tool, but that probably applies to every scope. The normal complement I set up at home is the C925 with my 101, and the XT-8 is often next to my other scopes. In my backyard, an SCT on a tripod seems most user friendly for me. I would suggest a 8" SCT might be a worthwhile thought for LP skies???

The dob is my easiest scope to use on objects traveling directly overhead and close to zenith. It is also a good grab and go scope and takes about a minute to set up. The tube and base are light enough to move so I'm not reluctant to use it.
I do feel the sky conditions (seeing, transparency, LP) point to the best all around scope. I suggest looking at Jupiter using a 6-8" dob and some decent EPs. Judge for yourself.

You say try a 6-8 dob, and this is what is making me question my equipment as i have a 5 inch reflector ( an inch smaller ), then an 80mm apo ( also an inch smaller lol) as everyone seems to say 80 isnt enough but 100mm is, as with a newt, 5 inch newt isnt enough but 6 to 8 inch is...I feel like im an inch short on all my scopes! And as a new person, im wondering how much of a difference this really makes.

Initially when I got my scopes, I knew very little what size is good for what purpose. The more i read, the more it seems i literally purchased scopes which are not capable from what most people say.

I would love to really see the difference from my 80/560 apo to a 100mm apo and a 5 inch newt to a 6 inch.

[dnrmilspec]

You say try a 6-8 dob, and this is what is making me question my equipment as i have a 5 inch reflector ( an inch smaller ), then an 80mm apo ( also an inch smaller lol) as everyone seems to say 80 isnt enough but 100mm is, as with a newt, 5 inch newt isnt enough but 6 to 8 inch is...I feel like im an inch short on all my scopes! And as a new person, im wondering how much of a difference this really makes.

Initially when I got my scopes, I knew very little what size is good for what purpose. The more i read, the more it seems i literally purchased scopes which are not capable from what most people say.

I would love to really see the difference from my 80/560 apo to a 100mm apo and a 5 inch newt to a 6 inch.

OK.  Let's reset here.  This is the problem with threads like this.  So many opinions about "the best" and all we serve to do is confuse people and make them hate their scopes.  About your scopes.   You have an 80mm Apochromatic Refractor.  When I first started out in astronomy oh so many years ago, you couldn't even buy one of these for love nor money.  It would have been a dream scope to just about anyone.  And, if you could have bought one it would have cost an easy £10K in todays money.  That 8" Newtonian so many folks recommend would have cost the equivalent of $2500.00.  So most of us didn't have these.

 

You need to get out and use the scopes you have.  We would have killed for them "back in the day".  And we saw stuff with much more primitive equipment.  And we loved the hobby and now, nearly 50 years later, we pontificate about machines that were unimaginable upgrades from scopes we owned, loved and used. 

 

I wish you were here in my front yard.  I could set up all of the ones you mentioned for you to see.  The thing is though, if you do not love the hobby in the first place what would be the point? 

 

Here is your homework assignment.  Set up both of your telescopes and look at the moon.  See which one you like the best.  See what each does as you increase magnification.  Look at the moon for a long time.  Own the differences.  My guess is that you will see that there is not that much difference at all.  But did the moon excite you?  At this point in your journey you should be eager to use the scopes you have.  Take my word for it.  If you are not romanced by seeing M42 in your 80mm APO or 5" reflector, seeing it in a 100mm APO will not trip your trigger.  There is, frankly, very little real difference. 

If you come to love this hobby you will always be hankering for bigger-badder scopes.  YOU DID NOT MAKE A MISTAKE ABOUT YOUR SCOPES.  You made two really good choices.

 

There is no aperture size where 1" will make a world of difference.  I have a 4" Apo refractor.  I also have a 5.1" Apo refractor.  Can I see the difference?  Yes.  But I am bringing to the comparison 50+ years of experience.  Would the average person walking up to either scope see the difference.  Only maybe.  But that difference would not mean much to them.  A few more stars in a glob.  Absent the comparison side-by-side.  Not much difference at all. 

 

Here is a story I have told before here.  At a well attended star party I set up my 6" achromatic refractor on a really nice mount, next to a guy with an astrophysics 6" Refractor.  His AP 155 EDFS is a dream machine.  No longer available it commands huge prices from people who just have to have one.  (I have subsequently owned  and used AP scopes and they are wonderful.)  So there I am with my sub $1K refractor about 20 feet from the superstar.  I cheated.  I put an astrophysics diagonal in my scope and the legendary 31 Nagler eyepiece.  And I pointed that scope at the double cluster in Perseus.  Person after person who looked through my scope was gobsmacked.  I heard "oh my God" so many times it finally got the attention of the AP owner who strolled over and looked.  "Wow" he said and asked me what the scope was.  I told him it was a few hundred dollar Chinese achromat.  He simply walked away shaking his head.  Later he invited me to look at the same thing using his scope and the same eyepiece.  There was a difference but not very much.  On that target.  We both agreed that "worth it" is a very moveable feast.  And that scopes are tools best used for that for which they are best suited.

 

All that to say that I do not recommend that you buy anything at this point.   The two most important things any astronomer can bring to any scope is patience and wonder.  Get a book to understand what you are seeing.  After awhile, take your scopes to a darker place and see what the big deal about that is.  Then.  When you can articulate exactly what it is that you want to upgrade then get it.  There is plenty of time to buy stuff but not before you know whether it is worth it. 

 

Again.  You have great scopes that are just crying out to be used.

[daveb2022]

 

everyone seems to say 80 isnt enough but 100mm is

 

I would love to really see the difference from my 80/560 apo to a 100mm apo and a 5 inch newt to a 6 inch.

I guess I would say an 80mm isn't enough for what? My TV85 is a wonderful scope on certain targets. Is there a huge difference visually between my two Televue refractors? No.

My APO's provide sharper views than any of my (budget) reflectors, but larger aperture helps me resolves more. I would not compare a 5" newt to a 6"...I'd compare it to an 8".

 

[gnowellsct]

. A good 4" ED doublet is a stone-cold classic, a lifer and will invariably become one of your most used scopes, especially if you live under the Bortle 9 of a metropolis, and even after you'll have bought larger apertures. At least, that's my experience.

.

I traded in two 102 mms for two 92mms and feel it was a trade up. But I understand The great affection people can have for their 102s.

Greg N

[Jw_drums]

OK. Let's reset here. This is the problem with threads like this. So many opinions about "the best" and all we serve to do is confuse people and make them hate their scopes. About your scopes. You have an 80mm Apochromatic Refractor. When I first started out in astronomy oh so many years ago, you couldn't even buy one of these for love nor money. It would have been a dream scope to just about anyone. And, if you could have bought one it would have cost an easy £10K in todays money. That 8" Newtonian so many folks recommend would have cost the equivalent of $2500.00. So most of us didn't have these.

You need to get out and use the scopes you have. We would have killed for them "back in the day". And we saw stuff with much more primitive equipment. And we loved the hobby and now, nearly 50 years later, we pontificate about machines that were unimaginable upgrades from scopes we owned, loved and used.

I wish you were here in my front yard. I could set up all of the ones you mentioned for you to see. The thing is though, if you do not love the hobby in the first place what would be the point?

Here is your homework assignment. Set up both of your telescopes and look at the moon. See which one you like the best. See what each does as you increase magnification. Look at the moon for a long time. Own the differences. My guess is that you will see that there is not that much difference at all. But did the moon excite you? At this point in your journey you should be eager to use the scopes you have. Take my word for it. If you are not romanced by seeing M42 in your 80mm APO or 5" reflector, seeing it in a 100mm APO will not trip your trigger. There is, frankly, very little real difference.
If you come to love this hobby you will always be hankering for bigger-badder scopes. YOU DID NOT MAKE A MISTAKE ABOUT YOUR SCOPES. You made two really good choices.

There is no aperture size where 1" will make a world of difference. I have a 4" Apo refractor. I also have a 5.1" Apo refractor. Can I see the difference? Yes. But I am bringing to the comparison 50+ years of experience. Would the average person walking up to either scope see the difference. Only maybe. But that difference would not mean much to them. A few more stars in a glob. Absent the comparison side-by-side. Not much difference at all.

Here is a story I have told before here. At a well attended star party I set up my 6" achromatic refractor on a really nice mount, next to a guy with an astrophysics 6" Refractor. His AP 155 EDFS is a dream machine. No longer available it commands huge prices from people who just have to have one. (I have subsequently owned and used AP scopes and they are wonderful.) So there I am with my sub $1K refractor about 20 feet from the superstar. I cheated. I put an astrophysics diagonal in my scope and the legendary 31 Nagler eyepiece. And I pointed that scope at the double cluster in Perseus. Person after person who looked through my scope was gobsmacked. I heard "oh my God" so many times it finally got the attention of the AP owner who strolled over and looked. "Wow" he said and asked me what the scope was. I told him it was a few hundred dollar Chinese achromat. He simply walked away shaking his head. Later he invited me to look at the same thing using his scope and the same eyepiece. There was a difference but not very much. On that target. We both agreed that "worth it" is a very moveable feast. And that scopes are tools best used for that for which they are best suited.

All that to say that I do not recommend that you buy anything at this point. The two most important things any astronomer can bring to any scope is patience and wonder. Get a book to understand what you are seeing. After awhile, take your scopes to a darker place and see what the big deal about that is. Then. When you can articulate exactly what it is that you want to upgrade then get it. There is plenty of time to buy stuff but not before you know whether it is worth it.

Again. You have great scopes that are just crying out to be used.

[Jw_drums]

The comment I quoted above is so good, read it twice.

Also, check out Astrobiscuit as mentioned in an earlier comment. His videos are excellent

Edited by Jw_drums, 22 February 2025 - 01:03 PM.

[Arkade]

The comment I quoted above is so good, read it twice.

Also, check out Astrobiscuit as mentioned in an earlier comment. His videos are excellent

Thanks. I think someone else said similar and said when you get a scope, try not to use the forums too much as you end up thinking more about the equipment you dont have, as opposed to the great stuff you do have & actually spend time outside having fun and being in the moment.

I find many people are similar, they are pre occupied by apperture and what they do not have. Galileo ,imagine he could have traded his 20 power, 1.5mm aperture telescope with one of ours, he would be delighted. I feel we always want what we can't have and when we get it, still are not satisfied, instead of appreciating what scope we already have.

Thank you all for the lovely feedback

[Jw_drums]

I'm the same, only been observing for a couple of months and the phrase "paralysis by analysis" has never been so apt. Then last night I saw the open clusters in Auriga for the first time, they blew my mind and I wasn't thinking about the eyepieces I didn't have

[PKDfan]

I consider myself an accomplished planetary/lunar observer and don't have the steadiest seeing nor the greatest sky so small apertures of extremely high optical quality suffices for me.

Most nites a 62mm apo satisfies as it has extremely quick time from setup to observing.

If its really marginal an even smaller scope is used a 60mm zoomer so if your expectations are in order ANY aperture is a good aperture.



CSS
Lance

[TPyxidis]

Slight different between an 80m and a 100mm, I think a larger jump to 8" or 10" would yield something a bit more noticeable. However, you do have to start aperture fever somewhere so 80mm to 100mm sounds like a good start. 

[Arkade]

OK. Let's reset here. This is the problem with threads like this. So many opinions about "the best" and all we serve to do is confuse people and make them hate their scopes. About your scopes. You have an 80mm Apochromatic Refractor. When I first started out in astronomy oh so many years ago, you couldn't even buy one of these for love nor money. It would have been a dream scope to just about anyone. And, if you could have bought one it would have cost an easy £10K in todays money. That 8" Newtonian so many folks recommend would have cost the equivalent of $2500.00. So most of us didn't have these.

You need to get out and use the scopes you have. We would have killed for them "back in the day". And we saw stuff with much more primitive equipment. And we loved the hobby and now, nearly 50 years later, we pontificate about machines that were unimaginable upgrades from scopes we owned, loved and used.

I wish you were here in my front yard. I could set up all of the ones you mentioned for you to see. The thing is though, if you do not love the hobby in the first place what would be the point?

Here is your homework assignment. Set up both of your telescopes and look at the moon. See which one you like the best. See what each does as you increase magnification. Look at the moon for a long time. Own the differences. My guess is that you will see that there is not that much difference at all. But did the moon excite you? At this point in your journey you should be eager to use the scopes you have. Take my word for it. If you are not romanced by seeing M42 in your 80mm APO or 5" reflector, seeing it in a 100mm APO will not trip your trigger. There is, frankly, very little real difference.
If you come to love this hobby you will always be hankering for bigger-badder scopes. YOU DID NOT MAKE A MISTAKE ABOUT YOUR SCOPES. You made two really good choices.

There is no aperture size where 1" will make a world of difference. I have a 4" Apo refractor. I also have a 5.1" Apo refractor. Can I see the difference? Yes. But I am bringing to the comparison 50+ years of experience. Would the average person walking up to either scope see the difference. Only maybe. But that difference would not mean much to them. A few more stars in a glob. Absent the comparison side-by-side. Not much difference at all.

Here is a story I have told before here. At a well attended star party I set up my 6" achromatic refractor on a really nice mount, next to a guy with an astrophysics 6" Refractor. His AP 155 EDFS is a dream machine. No longer available it commands huge prices from people who just have to have one. (I have subsequently owned and used AP scopes and they are wonderful.) So there I am with my sub $1K refractor about 20 feet from the superstar. I cheated. I put an astrophysics diagonal in my scope and the legendary 31 Nagler eyepiece. And I pointed that scope at the double cluster in Perseus. Person after person who looked through my scope was gobsmacked. I heard "oh my God" so many times it finally got the attention of the AP owner who strolled over and looked. "Wow" he said and asked me what the scope was. I told him it was a few hundred dollar Chinese achromat. He simply walked away shaking his head. Later he invited me to look at the same thing using his scope and the same eyepiece. There was a difference but not very much. On that target. We both agreed that "worth it" is a very moveable feast. And that scopes are tools best used for that for which they are best suited.

All that to say that I do not recommend that you buy anything at this point. The two most important things any astronomer can bring to any scope is patience and wonder. Get a book to understand what you are seeing. After awhile, take your scopes to a darker place and see what the big deal about that is. Then. When you can articulate exactly what it is that you want to upgrade then get it. There is plenty of time to buy stuff but not before you know whether it is worth it.

Again. You have great scopes that are just crying out to be used.

You make so much sense. I feel it is the same in a lot of hobbies. Even taking martial arts or boxing as a comparison.

Some people actually love to go in the gym and workout, spar, learn new techniques and then there are the people who want to look the part. Have the most expensive gloves, the best footwear when they have not even been training for more than a couple of years.

Your message really made a lot of sense. Thanks

[Arkade]

A 4" Apo won't go any deeper than a 5" Newt. It might be a touch sharper on planets. It will be lower maintenance. But it won't be much different on DSO.

A much bigger change would be an 8" Dob. That would be more of a dramatic difference.

I've been reading through all my past posts etc. I was so close to spending £1400-£1600 on a 5 inch apo and then another £400 or so on a mount ..I just looked and an 8 inch dob,has a cooling fan is only £370 as is the skywatcher brand! I am just intrigued how much different the 200mm will be that my 130mm reflector and 80mm apo