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Bolometric corrections and Black Body Irradiance

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#1 DGK

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Posted 02 February 2025 - 05:04 PM

I am having a hard time reconciling bolometric corrections (BC) and black body V-band as a fraction of full spectrum. For example:

 

Solar full spectrum irradiance (5778°K) = 6.31E07 W/m2

Solar V-band irradiance (400-625nm) = 1.79E07 W/m2

 

So on the face of it the BC should be 2.5log10(1.79/6.31) = -1.37 but the actual BC is closer to -0.18 or thereabouts from various sources for a main sequence star with B-V = 0.69.

 

What am I missing? It most certainly is something simple - see attached what I get with B-V between -.3 to 2. Abscissa is calculated as above and ordinate is BC as reported.

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  • Screenshot 2025-02-02 150121.jpg


#2 robin_astro

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Posted 02 February 2025 - 07:34 PM

Two reasons

 

1. The solar spectrum (or indeed the spectrum of any star) is not that of a black body

 

2. The Bolometric scale is relative to the somewhat arbitrary value chosen for the bolometric magnitude of the sun.

 

See for example "setting the correction scale"

https://en.wikipedia...tric_correction

 

Cheers

Robin



#3 robin_astro

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Posted 02 February 2025 - 07:47 PM

Also what is the origin of your V band irradiance figure ? (Note that the V passband in the Johnson/Cousins system does not have a square cut off at 400/625nm so to determine the flux in V relative to the total flux you would need to convolve the solar spectrum by the actual V passband )

 

Cheers

Robin



#4 robin_astro

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Posted 02 February 2025 - 07:55 PM

Similarly a star with B-V = 0  does not mean that the star has the same flux in B and V as the magnitudes are relative to Vega which by definition has B=V=R=I = 0 


Edited by robin_astro, 02 February 2025 - 07:56 PM.


#5 robin_astro

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Posted 02 February 2025 - 08:54 PM

 

The Bolometric scale is relative to the somewhat arbitrary value chosen for the bolometric magnitude of the sun.

 

 

So if we adopt absolute V and bolometric magnitudes for the sun of 4.83 and 4.74

https://nssdc.gsfc.n...et/sunfact.html

https://arxiv.org/abs/1510.06262v2

then by definition BC(solar) = -0.09

and BC values for other spectral classes follow from this, (calculated based on the actual spectra, not Teff black body curves.)

 

Here is the actual situation for the G2v solar spectrum which in this case very roughly conforms to a black body curve

 

G2v_planck_V.png

 

but actual spectra can be very different from Teff black body curves for other stars eg here is Vega

 

https://en.wikipedia..._comparison.png

 

Cheers

Robin



#6 DGK

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Posted 02 February 2025 - 10:21 PM

Also what is the origin of your V band irradiance figure ? (Note that the V passband in the Johnson/Cousins system does not have a square cut off at 400/625nm so to determine the flux in V relative to the total flux you would need to convolve the solar spectrum by the actual V passband )

 

Cheers

Robin

Hi Robin,

 

Thanks for the replies. I am just trying to get an appreciation of how close the black body assumption is on average to reported main sequence BC's. So in this instance I used Teff from B-V correlations and integrated the associated b-b irradiance over a square cutoff. I was expecting some difference but the discrepancy I am seeing seems to be systematic (ie the graph I attached). In the case of the solar example, even if I open up the V-band to 400-750 to get closer to what I think is roughly the accepted 40% radiation in visible spectrum the calculated BC is -0.95.

 

Probably when I go through your links I'll appreciate the futility of what I am trying to do. I'm working toward trying to get some estimated of photon flux which I have for b-b but wanted to try and see how valid that assumption is using BC's to test it - but the systematic discrepancy intrigues me.



#7 DGK

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Posted 02 February 2025 - 10:32 PM

Forgot to mention I am using B-V to Teff to BC correlations from the following which I figured would give a nice average:

 

Reed, B. Cameron, "The Composite Observational-Theoretical HR Diagram", Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, Vol. 92, p.36, 1998



#8 DGK

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Posted 02 February 2025 - 11:00 PM

And this paper was what got me started on my quest to understand the subject:

 

Reed, B. Cameron, “Stellar magnitudes and photon fluxes,” Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, p. 123, 4 1993



#9 robin_astro

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 06:26 AM

The main part of the difference you are seeing lie in the definition of the bolometric and visual magnitude scales, which means you are not comparing like with like

 

"visual magnitude" is normally  Johnson V magnitude which is not the total flux in the total visible region. It is the flux in the passband of a specific "green" filter which is much narrower than the full visual range and shown in the plot I posted above.  This is then expressed relative to the flux from Vega which by definition has V=0

 

 

Bolometric magnitude is a measure of the total flux from the star. Unlike Johnson V, this magnitude scale does not use Vega as a standard however so it cannot be compared directly with V magnitude.  Historically It was  nominally scaled so BC = 0 for the sun so  for the sun the Bolometric magnitude = V magnitude, though since stars are not actually black bodies,  it is an empirical relationship which has varied between authors and was eventually defined in terms of flux in physical units by the IAU in the paper I cited so BC for the sun is now ~ -0.1 

 

Additionally, since the spectra of stars in general do not conform to the Planck curve, you cannot then calculate V magnitude from bolometric magnitude for any other stars. This must be done empirically based on the actual spectrum of the star to produce a table of BC for stars of a particular spectral type. 

 

Cheers

Robin



#10 robin_astro

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 07:32 AM

 Historically It was  nominally scaled so BC = 0 for the sun so  for the sun the Bolometric magnitude = V magnitude

Actually I suspect it was based on a black body curve with Teff that of the sun  Hence the BC for the sun being -0.1  due to the sun not being a perfect black body but the point is the two scales are arbitrarily forced to give the same value for that specific Teff. 

 

Cheers

Robin



#11 StupendousMan

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 10:08 AM


Probably when I go through your links I'll appreciate the futility of what I am trying to do. I'm working toward trying to get some estimated of photon flux which I have for b-b but wanted to try and see how valid that assumption is using BC's to test it - but the systematic discrepancy intrigues me.

If you tell us what your goal is, perhaps we can help you to reach it. 

 

What's your goal?



#12 DGK

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 01:06 PM

Actually my question is really simple - forget the b-b assumption.

 

Assume approximately 40% of the sun's irradiance is in the "visual band". This means Mv irradiance/luminance has 40% that of Mb so the magnitude difference is 2.5log10(0.4/1) = -1.00 which is clearly wrong, its -0.2'ish.



#13 robin_astro

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 06:27 PM

Actually my question is really simple - forget the b-b assumption.

 

Assume approximately 40% of the sun's irradiance is in the "visual band". This means Mv irradiance/luminance has 40% that of Mb so the magnitude difference is 2.5log10(0.4/1) = -1.00 which is clearly wrong, its -0.2'ish.

That would be true if the magnitude scales used to measure Bolometric and V magnitudes (Mv and Mb) were defined in the same way but they are not. 

 

The two magnitude scales have different zero points such that for a given magnitude, the flux is not the same in the two systems.  (One of several odd ways astronomers chose to define things.) 

 

For the calculation  to work as you describe, you will need to convert the magnitudes in the two systems into physical flux units using the different definitions of the zero points that the two magnitude systems are based on.

 

Also Mv is not the flux integrated over all visual wavelengths. It is specifically the flux in the Johnson V passband which is only the green part of the spectrum and has the shape of the green line I showed here.

https://www.cloudyni...nce/?p=13948012


Edited by robin_astro, 03 February 2025 - 06:31 PM.


#14 robin_astro

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 06:36 PM

That is about as far as I can take it without repeating what I have already said but I expect "StupendousMan" will explain it better as no doubt he has done to many student classes over the years :-)

 

Cheers

Robin



#15 DGK

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Posted 03 February 2025 - 07:32 PM

Robin, I appreciate you trying to make it click for me but I was aware of all the concepts you raised. It was good to get more reading though so thanks.

 

Even if I use the Johnson V passband to get the fraction in V-band (convolved or square it makes little difference for my purposes) I still have the same issue of misunderstanding. The fact that if I take my results and apply slope and bias adjustment I can get the right values certainly confirms that I am comparing apples and oranges. But its not just a zero point change, there is also a slope change which I can't fathom.

 

I did this all in high school over 45 years ago, I need a high school physics teacher to help me again!



#16 DGK

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Posted 08 February 2025 - 02:44 PM

To more concisely articulate my (false) rationale I share that it is coming from my interpretation of Bessell et al Astron. Astrophys. 333, 231-250 (1998) - see my notes attached. F(lambda) I define as the B-B radiance when I am doing my calculations which is the point of the exercise.

 

Just because it was easy I went ahead and used the normalized Johnson V-Band transmission and it changed my earlier graph quite a bit but still a slope difference. Bessell's definition of V (p242) seems to help move the zero point of the derived BCv but the slope stubbornly remains. I can't believe using a B-B assumption is that much of a bad fit on average for main sequence stars - or am I delusional?

 

I am still struggling with this, hopefully this additional info helps me muster some help.

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#17 robin_astro

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Posted 09 February 2025 - 07:44 AM

 I can't believe using a B-B assumption is that much of a bad fit on average for main sequence stars 

A0V eg Vega

 

https://en.wikipedia..._comparison.png

 

Robin



#18 DGK

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Posted 09 February 2025 - 12:19 PM

Thanks for not giving up on me Robin.

 

By resending that Vega spectrum in response to my comment (which I should have caveated) you certainly are reinforcing how bad a B-B fit can get due to the Balmer Discontinuity. That's part of what I am trying to come to grips with but I figured by using BCv and the fact that the B-band in B-V has low transmission in this region (see attached) it would have less of an impact on the comparison I am personally trying to quantify.

 

I am going to take another look at Bessell's definition of V (p242) which sadly is just dropped in the paper with no derivation. I didn't tackle it when looking at the paper a few weeks ago. Maybe that'll get me going down the right rabbit hole.

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  • Screenshot 2025-02-09 110715.jpg

Edited by DGK, 09 February 2025 - 01:10 PM.


#19 StupendousMan

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Posted 09 February 2025 - 12:55 PM

Sorry that I wasn't able to respond earlier.

 

If you wish to estimate the brightness of a star as measured by a CCD or CMOS camera, you need to calculate the number of photons from the star which will be collected by your telescope and detector.  Let's leave the Earth's atmosphere out of the problem for a moment.  The steps I describe below are also listed, with illustrations, at

 

   http://spiff.rit.edu...arris.html#gory

 

First, you need to find the spectrum of the star in question with absolute calibration. There aren't many, so it's likely you won't find one for your star. A good place to find some is in the CALSPEC library:

 

   https://www.stsci.ed...atalogs/calspec

 

These spectra have a long list of values of (wavelength, flux at that wavelength), where the flux is ergs per sq.cm. per second per Angstrom.   I suggest choosing Vega (alpha Lyr) as a starting example.

 

Next, you need the passband for your instrument; that is, the efficiency with which it turns photons into counts in the detector, as a function of wavelength.  In theory, this should be a combination of the reflectivity of your optics, the transmission of the filter, and the QE of the detector, but many people just grab the transmission of the filter and call it "good enough". 

 

Now it's time to convolve the stellar spectrum with the passband.  As shown in the URL I provided at the beginning of this post, the idea is to break the spectrum into a series of narrow chunks, multiply the spectrum's value in each chunk by the passband's efficiency in the chunk, and so calculate the flux in energy, inside this chunk, that should reach your detector.  Then, convert that energy into a number of photons, using the energy per photon inside this chunk.  Add up all those photons over all the little chunks over all wavelengths.

 

The result will be a flux in photons per second per collecting area of your telescope, for that model spectrum.  Write this down.  If you were to observe that star through a telescope far above the Earth's atmosphere, this is the number of photons per second per sq.cm. you should record.  For the example of Vega, using a Bessell V-band passband, the result is about 884,000 photons per second per sq.cm.  If you were to use a 6-inch telescope, which has a collecting area of 182 sq.cm., you'd collect about 160 million photons per second.

 

But what if you're not observing Vega?  What if you're planning to observe, say, HD 20291, which is the same spectral type (A0), but has a magnitude of V=7.0 instead of V=0.0?  Use the definition of magnitudes to determine that a star of mag 7 should have a brightness which is only 10^(-0.4*7.0) = 1/630 = 0.00159 times that of a star of mag 0.  So, instead of observing 160 million photons each second, you'll only see about 0.25 million = 250,000 photons per second.   In order to get the best results for this step, your desired target should be the same spectral type as the model spectrum used earlier.

 

Okay, but in real life, most of us observe from the ground.  We won't see 250,000 photons per second from HD 20291, because the Earth's atmosphere will scatter some of them.  Suppose we observe at an airmass of 1.2 in the V-passband.  Then we can expect

 

     (1.2 airmass) * (0.2 mag/airmass in V-band)  =  0.24 mag of extinction

 

In this case, the star will be fainter by 0.24 mag = 10^(-0.4*0.24) = 0.80 in intensity.  So, instead of recording 250,000 photons per second with our telescope, we'll only record about 200,000 photons per second.



#20 DGK

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Posted 09 February 2025 - 01:23 PM

Jumped back in to add something to my last post and saw your response StupendousMan - thank you!  A quick read indicates the approach I have indeed taken to estimate a photon flux (which is pretty well articulated in the reference I cite in post #8) sans using actual spectra data. But the xtra reading will no doubt help me. What I'm trying to do is come to grips with "how wrong" would my photon flux be  be if I just used the B-B spectrum from B-V derived BCv and Teff - that's the crux of it.



#21 StupendousMan

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Posted 09 February 2025 - 02:05 PM

 What I'm trying to do is come to grips with "how wrong" would my photon flux be  be if I just used the B-B spectrum from B-V derived BCv and Teff - that's the crux of it.

 

Hmmm.   I'm happy to explain how I do things, which is generally how other astronomers do things; it's less attractive to me to try to understand what you are trying to do, and then explain why it isn't working as well as you think it ought to work.  But how about this: if you use your method on 2 or 3 specific stars, provide the numbers that your methods provide, I'll use my methods on those same stars.  Then we can compare results, and we can see "how wrong" your values might be for those cases.

 

Deal?

 



#22 DGK

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Posted 09 February 2025 - 08:57 PM

Yes, I think that's probably the best way to help me see what I am doing wrong regarding deriving BCv based solely on B-B spectrum. Depending on what BCv's I get using real stellar spectra from a few exemplar main sequence stars that will give me some direction. Originally I thought this was going to be straight forward but BCv has turned out not so easy (for me).



#23 DGK

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 01:57 PM

I got hold of some stellar spectra at a range of B-V's and compared with what I was doing with B-B. I was able to use a structure I had put together for DSO spectra groupings so it was pretty painless.

 

Anyway, see the table attached Michael - I am pretty sure my photon flux calcs are right but please comment on reasonableness. The attached graph shows a comparison between the spectra and B-B derived fluxes with the outliers (highlighted red in the table) explained by complex spectra in the B-band. Assuming the liberties I have taken in adjusting the BCv are sound this is a pretty satisfying result.

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  • Table.jpg
  • B-V vs BB.Spectra.jpg


#24 DGK

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 02:09 PM

Specific to my original post, its the BCv values I have been struggling with understanding and didn't want to do anything completely arbitrary. One of the somewhat arbitrary approaches I did try was to pivot around the BCv value at B-V 0.693 (that of the sun which seems to be rather important), then make the necessary adjustment to match the convolution of V-band in the B-B spectra - see attached graphs. This is the adjustment I have applied to get the previous spectra / B-B comparison. It seems to be valid but I really don't solidly understand why....

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  • B-V vs BCv.jpg
  • B-V vs BCv adj.jpg


#25 StupendousMan

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 08:35 PM

This is quite a rabbit hole, isn't it?  :-)

 

I've used the CALSPEC data to compute some quantities.  I can verify that the numbers for photons/s/m^2 you provide in the post two above this one match mine closely.  For example,


                                  B                          V
                            photon/s/m^2               photon/s/m^2
                        DGK           SM              DGK         SM
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Vega = alpha Lyr     1.38E10       1.33E10         8.63E09     8.87E09

 HZ44                 3.92E05       3.78E05         1.90E05     1.96E05

 Sun                  3.90E20       3.77E20         4.45E20     4.57E20
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My calculations also yield very similar values for the (B-V) colors, if we adopt the convention that Vega has (B-V) = 0.


                            (B-V) color 
                            
                        DGK           SM            
 -------------------------------------------------
 Vega = alpha Lyr       0.00         0.00        

 HZ44                  -0.23        -0.27         

 Sun                    0.69         0.66
 -------------------------------------------------


So that's good!

 

After spending several hours running through calculations for bolometric corrections and failing to end up with values that match those in the textbooks, I've realized that bolometric corrections are a confusing combination of several factors; and, at the moment, I don't have a deep enough understanding to figure out a proper method to calculate them.  So, I'll leave them for another time.


Edited by StupendousMan, 15 February 2025 - 08:36 PM.



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