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Finding galaxies, how to in The Sky vs Stellarium?

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#51 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 04:25 PM

Yes the Orion Nebula was an easy to find target but due to background lighting it wasn't exciting to him, immediately he wanted B 33 due to background lighting I knew that would be a loss, I then switched to the Pleiades and his interest sparked when I gave him info of the "seven Sisters" he was intrigued, so galaxies are just a small part of what will keep him interested. I believe binary stars, clusters and tighter views on planets also the moon will captivate his interest. Finding the interesting item once a night or even weekly I think will build the curious excitement. 

B33 (the Horsehead Nebula) can be a very difficult target even with a much larger than 8-inch aperture equipped with an H-beta nebula filter at a dark site.  Explaining that some DSOs that look impressive in images are extremely difficult or practically impossible to see visually to your grandson might be a good idea, if you haven't already done so.

 

https://observing.sk...jan/IC_434.html



#52 newbeeDavid

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 04:47 PM

Yes that's a constant topic, he sees object on stellarium and doesn't seem to look at the #s including compass location just gets excited so i let him since he just moves on to the next, explaining and discouraging work to closely together, so I let excitement run and only deal with what doesn't work when we are viewing. Eight years old and maintaining an interest can be a challenge so if I need to let him look and not see at least he maintains interest. 

I am trying to design a compass degree wheel on the base and a alt scale on the side of the dobsonian base the degrees seems simple enough using a magnetic pointer for hitting zero however my issue is true vs magnetic north and being within 1-2 degrees seems a daunting task. Then the altimeter scale, placement  is never flat so thinking zero needs to be stationary and the scale needs to adjust, with a good digital level 0 and 90 degrees is + or - .1 degrees which seems not bad so to set zero cost would be around 50.00 on Amazon, pricy altimeter setting, price drops after 100 setups but need to hit 100. that would leave me figuring how to set accuracy on azimuth anyone ever figure this out?



#53 Tony Flanders

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 05:34 PM

Yes the Orion Nebula was an easy to find target but due to background lighting it wasn't exciting to him


Ooh, that's bad! The Orion Nebula has the highest intensity of any extended nebula visible from mid-northern latitudes. It's far more resistant to light pollution than even the brightest of galaxies. If your grandson finds the Orion Nebula underwhelming, he's in for a major disappointment the first time he sees a galaxy.

 

Why don't you give the Orion Nebula another try? Use fairly high magnification to resolve the Trapezium, the quadruple star in the very brightest part of the nebula. Then take a look at the dark fishmouth that protrudes in toward the Trapezium, and the "batwings" that spread out of it.


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#54 newbeeDavid

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 06:40 PM

I believe we used a Cellestron Luminos 23 mm which gave a 52x mag so dropping I have a ED Starguider 18 mm then the next is a plossl 12.5 mm or a Nagler 7 9 mm not sure how high a mag you refer to or is that left to my trial and error? I think all the pictures he sees have defined colors mostly pinks and blue not sure if those are from filters or certain time exposure, plus I see him looking at both horsehead with Orion Photos so he might be not impressed due to either reason. Can a UHC or other filter add color or would it kill definition of the Nebula?



#55 newbeeDavid

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 06:52 PM

I just pulled up his images and there is definitely colors some are strong in pink to red shading and blues in the single Orion photos, but he has several that are wide views with both Nebulas labeled IC 434NB,



#56 gfamily

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 07:01 PM

you hit a very important point that I haven't thought about, the upside down left right inversion, here I am plotting my maps on Stellarium yet not thinking inversion, well that just threw a wrench into my searching. I am pretty good at left right when viewing easy to find objects, but it's like any other habit it needs to be acquired and practiced to become habit, I am not there yet so area searching using stars and constellations will be my best starting point and maybe go beyond a starting point.

When I was starting, I used Cartes du Ciel  (Sky Charts) to prepare my own 'finder charts' that started with the wide angle view to know where I should be looking, then an inverted 'finder view', then a final 'eyepiece view'. 

Printed off, and taken out to use beside the telescope (using the red light head torch) helped

 

Example here for M57 - I reckon there's value in preparing your own.

 

M57 finder.PNG

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#57 newbeeDavid

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 07:32 PM

Well I just got a Newbee surprise, I was going by what I remembered, or at least thought I remembered from 25+ years ago when I was teaching my son the things that are in the night sky. My memory placed Orion's Nebula next to horse head, was I way off, the little View I got was not Orions Nebula, it was a piece IC 434, well I guess my grandson will get a better surprise when we pull up the correct Nebula. I guess that's part of my old age catching up. So I guess this might be an argument to actual Alt Az numbers, I am back to figuring out how to make my compass and altimeter designs work with good accuracy, back to design mode. 



#58 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 07:48 PM

Well I just got a Newbee surprise, I was going by what I remembered, or at least thought I remembered from 25+ years ago when I was teaching my son the things that are in the night sky. My memory placed Orion's Nebula next to horse head, was I way off, the little View I got was not Orions Nebula, it was a piece IC 434, well I guess my grandson will get a better surprise when we pull up the correct Nebula. I guess that's part of my old age catching up. So I guess this might be an argument to actual Alt Az numbers, I am back to figuring out how to make my compass and altimeter designs work with good accuracy, back to design mode. 

Perhaps you actually saw part of NGC 2024 (the Flame Nebula).  IC 434 is rather faint and requires a dark sky and most likely an H-beta filter to be seen.  

https://www.constell...m/flame-nebula/



#59 WillR

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 09:21 PM

Yes that's a constant topic, he sees object on stellarium and doesn't seem to look at the #s including compass location just gets excited so i let him since he just moves on to the next, explaining and discouraging work to closely together, so I let excitement run and only deal with what doesn't work when we are viewing. Eight years old and maintaining an interest can be a challenge so if I need to let him look and not see at least he maintains interest. 

I am trying to design a compass degree wheel on the base and a alt scale on the side of the dobsonian base the degrees seems simple enough using a magnetic pointer for hitting zero however my issue is true vs magnetic north and being within 1-2 degrees seems a daunting task. Then the altimeter scale, placement  is never flat so thinking zero needs to be stationary and the scale needs to adjust, with a good digital level 0 and 90 degrees is + or - .1 degrees which seems not bad so to set zero cost would be around 50.00 on Amazon, pricy altimeter setting, price drops after 100 setups but need to hit 100. that would leave me figuring how to set accuracy on azimuth anyone ever figure this out?

Best thing to use for the altitude scale is a simple digital angle gauge. I have this one:  https://www.amazon.c...435178818&psc=1



#60 Tony Flanders

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 09:37 PM

I believe we used a Cellestron Luminos 23 mm which gave a 52x mag so dropping I have a ED Starguider 18 mm then the next is a plossl 12.5 mm or a Nagler 7 9 mm not sure how high a mag you refer to or is that left to my trial and error? I think all the pictures he sees have defined colors mostly pinks and blue not sure if those are from filters or certain time exposure, plus I see him looking at both horsehead with Orion Photos so he might be not impressed due to either reason. Can a UHC or other filter add color or would it kill definition of the Nebula?

Some people see a vague, slightly greenish tint in the Orion Nebula, but more do not. With a handful of slight exceptions, all extended nebulae and galaxies are too faint to stimulate color vision in the human eye. Very few astronomical objects indeed -- including the planets -- show in vivid color. When color is visible, it's typically subtle pastels right at the edge of visibility.

 

Filters can make nebulae sharper and clearer, but they don't make them more colorful.



#61 newbeeDavid

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 10:10 PM

I have a digital angle finder, the only issue is you set 0 degrees based on a start point, it doesn't give you actual zero degrees,  that is why I need the digital level that will give me zero +- .1 degrees same at 90 all others are +- .2 degrees. All I need is zero to be as close as I can get. again what I haven't figured out is azimuth, true north and magnetic north aren't the same so a compass point isn't what I want for Zero degrees, I need and accurate zero azimuth point again any ideas? Is polarus the true zero and to use a star that's over 400 light years away i would need the finder on the dobsonian exactly centered, those odds are slim. Although the variance would follow tracking so technically close enough actually would be.



#62 newbeeDavid

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 10:20 PM

funny I just looked at the angle finder on the Amazon site that Will sent and it's the exact one I have.



#63 WISDOC

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 10:45 PM

The setting circle link  Dave Mitsky gave you in post #40 is a really good start to get your azimuth figured out. I havent figured out how to post pictures here yet or I would show you what I did when I made mine. It was really quite easy and cost me about  $35.00. But check the link in post # 40 out and have a good read. If that is the original thread it is really long and the later posts are pretty recent. I'm not too sure on that last sentence because I actually haven't read the last posts lately. 

  The little digital pitch guages that have been suggested is another easy option. I just get my ota pretty horizontal and attach the pitch guage, move the ota to get a zero  reading and hit the calibrate button. Nothing to it.

  For the setting circle I use Polaris. Center Polaris in your eyepiece, adjust your setting circle to read  zero and I'm good to go. When I look in the eyepiece my target is usually in the fov. For me when it isn't in the eyepiece it is just above and left of the field of veiw. A tiny nudge and the target is there.

  Clear skies and keep looking up. Doc



#64 Sketcher

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 10:54 PM

After having read most of the postings in this thread, I suggest that you attempt to change the focus away from galaxies and focus more on the moon, but not when it's full.  A full moon is an acquired taste that very few people manage to acquire.  Some of the brighter star clusters can also be rewarding observing choices.  And of course, any of the obvious naked eye planets will also be worth a try with your telescope.

 

8 years old doesn't give you much to work with in the realm of observing galaxies unless you're fortunate enough to live out in the middle of nowhere -- where the Milky Way is an obvious naked eye sight, and where there are no outdoor lights of any kind within sight and no brightly lit cities within 10s of miles.  But even then, 8 years old can make galaxy observing a disappointing endeavor -- especially when the child has become accustomed to seeing many of the best photographs that have been taken of such objects.

 

At your grandson's age, more likely than not he won't be interested in careful, patient observing in order to (barely) see more.  More likely, he'll just want to look and instantly see enough to impress him.  And even that may not be possible.  The bigger problem (than "finding galaxies") is that the child has already acquired some very unrealistic expectations -- and that's most unfortunate.

 

The moon can be made more interesting by pointing out some of the more prominent features and referring to them by their names.  Together, you and grandson can research further information on some of the lunar features that you've both seen with the telescope.

 

But like Tony mentioned, if the Great Orion Nebula (M42) was a disappointing sight for the child, then galaxies (despite the child's desire to see them) are likely to be even greater disappointments once he's finally able to see them for himself in a telescope's eyepiece.

 

Anyway, the above is just another opinion, and of course, it might even be an opinion that you and your grandson will eventually prove to be incorrect.  We can hope . . .


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#65 newbeeDavid

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 11:34 PM

WisDoc I can attempt the methods you suggest, the altitude from my mind view wouldn't be correct since the angle finder sets zero to start, not an accurate zero, the azimuth with polaris will get me where I need to be. That gets me 50% accurate for a reference, I assume setting the angle finder with a bubble level gives me a close, maybe, altimeter ref, who knows with a wide field eyepiece it may give a reasonable start. I am one who close is never close enough so I analyze specs and always make the effort to improve.

Sketcher, read thread 58 I was wrong and now trying to figure out why, will recreate to see where I actually was but for now I was just wrong,.as far as star hopping I will pursue the direction I am heading DSO's, planets are boredom fill ins, Mars and Jupiter, which is just still backyard viewable and the moon which will meet it's time limit in the next week for 2 weeks due to school restrictions. so the amount of dark skies he gets are also getting shorter until schools out. that's ok I have a sun filter for my reflector that allows some daytime viewing, don't get me wrong he's eight and at that age mind change is like the weather. Believe me I work on keeping his interest alive and right now it's his passion. 



#66 WISDOC

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 11:52 PM

Zeroing the pitch guage/angle finder guage with a known accurate bubble level sounds like a good idea. A little redundancy never hurts. Good luck.



#67 Brain&Force

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 04:27 AM

When I started exploring the skies with my 8" telescope, I found M65 and M66 in Leo to be visible even in my light polluted skies in suburban San Diego (Bortle 7-8), though lacking in structure. NGC 3628, however, was impossible to see. M104 is also easy in my 5" SCT in my skies in Madison, and the dust lane should be obvious with 8" of aperture. These will be visible in the spring galaxy season!

 

For other deep sky objects, globular clusters should be on your list. At the moment, there are only a few visible (M79 and NGC 2419 come to mind) but they are much more abundant in the summer. M3, M5 (my personal favorite), M13 and M92 are all showpieces.


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#68 WillR

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 08:32 AM

I have a digital angle finder, the only issue is you set 0 degrees based on a start point, it doesn't give you actual zero degrees,  that is why I need the digital level that will give me zero +- .1 degrees same at 90 all others are +- .2 degrees. All I need is zero to be as close as I can get. again what I haven't figured out is azimuth, true north and magnetic north aren't the same so a compass point isn't what I want for Zero degrees, I need and accurate zero azimuth point again any ideas? Is polarus the true zero and to use a star that's over 400 light years away i would need the finder on the dobsonian exactly centered, those odds are slim. Although the variance would follow tracking so technically close enough actually would be.

I think Polaris is about one degree off, so you can get close there. Your phone compass should be able to be set for true north. You can also get azimuth readings from an app like Sky Safari in real time. You can center a bright star that you know, get the azimuth reading from the app, and adjust the setting circle accordingly.

 

When I started out, I put an azimuth circle on my dob. But after a short time I stopped using it, took it off, and have star hopped ever since. They are not all that accurate, and you will still need to identify the field or target from charts and/ or photographs.



#69 Spile

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 04:27 PM

As I mentioned in my earlier post I use SkySafari at the eyepiece when star hopping. It has a very useful rotate option when I swap from the RACI to the eyepiece. No setting circles or inclinometer.



#70 newbeeDavid

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 04:35 PM

That is a thought going around in my head, accurate at the moment numbers, means attached to a laptop or phone to see real time positions. The other option is plotting future times and be OCD focused on when to move the scope, which both options seem a waste of time. Star hopping still seems to be a more interesting method and as far as my grandson, just knowing regions and let him loose with the refractor or the 8" dobs which he likes them both, seems to be fun for him. When it becomes boring there are specific targets, planets, moon and other objects, he wants to try and chase satellites.

as far as true north I can get degree offset based on my exact lat/lon location which will be +- a degree or two, which places me about the same as using Polaris, so the setup is somewhat figured out, just don't know if I want to waste the time doing it to find out I don't want to use it. The use of the alt meter probable could aid in location of difficult objects on the Dobsonian by giving a reference #    



#71 Sketcher

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 04:44 PM

Sketcher, read thread 58 I was wrong and now trying to figure out why, will recreate to see where I actually was but for now I was just wrong,.as far as star hopping I will pursue the direction I am heading DSO's, planets are boredom fill ins, Mars and Jupiter, which is just still backyard viewable and the moon which will meet it's time limit in the next week for 2 weeks due to school restrictions. so the amount of dark skies he gets are also getting shorter until schools out. that's ok I have a sun filter for my reflector that allows some daytime viewing, don't get me wrong he's eight and at that age mind change is like the weather. Believe me I work on keeping his interest alive and right now it's his passion. 

OK, so we don't know what the nebulous object was that you had your telescope pointed at.  That being agreed upon, it was definitely not IC-434.  As Dave Mitsky mentioned (or at least implied), IC-434 is too faint for you to have been able to see.

 

My best guess -- you were either looking at M78 or M42 (The Orion Nebula).  B33 (the Horse Head Nebula (a dark "notch" in IC-434) -- which would have been invisible for you) is about midway between M78 and M42.  The Flame Nebula (NGC 2024) would have been in the same field of view as Alnitak -- the eastern most of Orion's three belt stars.  I suspect that even this nebula might have been a bit of a challenge for you under your skies, but it would nevertheless have been one of your possibilities.

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

There are many ways for determining precisely where one's telescope is pointed in the night sky.  You're working on perfecting one such method, so I won't share my own (different) method that I've successfully used for the past 6 decades or so.  My method (involving no electronics) works for me, but most make use of other methods, some of which have already appeared in this thread.

 

The important thing is that one is able to determine precisely where one's telescope is pointed -- by whatever method one cares to make use of.  Once this has been taken care of, object identification becomes immensely easier; and similarly, it becomes much easier to point one's telescope at any desired object (including galaxies of course) in one's sky -- including objects that cannot be seen in one's telescope.  But at least one would no longer have any doubt that at least one had their telescope pointed precisely at the object they were attempting to see.

 

So, it's definitely a good idea to have at least one reliable method for determining precisely where one's telescope is pointed.

 

Sun filters are of course good to have for keeping track of our nearest star.  Some have been known to maintain sunspot records for pretty much every clear enough day over long periods of time, and/or one can make more detailed observations/sketches of some of the more interesting sunspot groups that occasionally show up.



#72 newbeeDavid

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 04:54 PM

I have tried AstroHopper I will need to look at Skysafari toyed withe AstroHopper haven't put it to use yet, As I have said I have a Meade Autostar, the setup, which I need to do the same setup and alignment procedure that AstroHopper uses is a pain for again, the low quality viewing that the Bird Jones design delivers, the database is extensive far more than what the 137 mm scope can see. Have thought about switching the scope withe the Orion 114 skyquest, just haven't been motivated the small skyquest is clear and very nice viewing the only headache is what I am working on, the wiggle I get trying to nail down fine focus. 



#73 newbeeDavid

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 05:08 PM

Alnitak was the starting point for locating the Nebula I was definitely not looking high enough at NGC2064 nor was I low enough to be at M 42 so my choices have a certain viewing area. the finder is almost exact center for what the scope views. My sky has been cloud covered for two weeks and still is for the near future so any viewing is out, beyond that i stoped trying since I need to Look at the same region to know so why worry about petty items.



#74 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 06:42 PM

The center of NGC 2024 is only about 13 to 14 arc minutes from Alnitak.

 

https://www.constell...a-location.webp


Edited by Dave Mitsky, 15 February 2025 - 11:34 PM.


#75 newbeeDavid

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 07:16 PM

Looking at that picture I would say it's a definite maybe




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