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Baader Prism Diagonals - yes again one more time

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#1 Martinbruce

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Posted 11 February 2025 - 07:25 AM

I as many have agonized over the diagonal choice for my f7.8 StellaMaria 125ED refractor. While looking through the Baader website I came accross this test of whether a Prism or Mirror diagonal was called for. My question is - has anyone done this? 

 

"We do not recommend a prism for refracting telescopes unless the optical calculation of the objective lens calls for using a prism instead of a mirror.

For 100 years - all Carl Zeiss Refractor telescopes were designed to compensate for the added glaspath of a prism.

And throughout our 25 years of offering this prism we repeatedly found refractor telescopes - especially of very short focal length - where the airy disc went colorless only when adding a prism into the beam of light - as was the case with the "long gone" Astro Physics Traveler.

So please check carefully with your existing mirror star diagonal if the first ring of the airy disc appears reddish when observing a bright star - or better when observing an artificial star at high magnification. if this is found to be the case then a prism will bring a noticeable improvement. If the first diffraction ring appears white already than a prism would not lead to an improvement but will induce a color error."

 

In particular the last paragraph..


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#2 Eddgie

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 01:14 PM

Some report improvements when using a prism, but that is mostly due to just a change in the way the light is distributed and does not mean the contrast was improved. The goal is to preserve as much contrast as possible. 

 

For example, say that you noted a slight red fringe on the ring of a very bright star. Now, suppose you make the spherical aberration of the color red worse, rather than better. The more of the energy  in that red ring gets pulled out of that ring and the Airy Disk is re-distrusted across a wider area. The perception could be that the system is working better because the red ring is dimmer, but the reality would be that the contrast is being lowered. The red fringe is simply dimmer because it does not have as much energy concentration due to the SA pushing it further out into the pattern. 

 

A prism adds spherical aberration and the three variables are the length of the path through the prism, the color of the light , and the focal ratio of the system.

 

 

In most refractor design, the best correction is for green. By this, we mean that the green has no, or a very small amount, of spherical aberration. This means that the other colors will have different amounts of spherical aberration. Typically the red is overcorrected and the blue is under-corrected but this is not always the case. 

 

 

Remember, the prism adds spherical aberration. Now, suppose you see that there is a blue fringe, but when you add a prism, it gets a bit better.  Some would say that it has improved the performance of the system, but the reality is that to get the improvement in blue, you added spherical aberration to what was perfect green, and made the red worse.   Have you really made anything better or have you just shifted the error to a different colors? The contrast transfer is probably slightly affected. The blue is more focused, and the red is more spread out so harder to see, but more energy is taken out of the Airy Disk to get a better cosmetic view. 

 

A refractor is typically designed to have the best contrast transfer possible when a mirror is used, and if you use a prism, you shift everything. At best it is neutral, but in reality, it will almost always lower contrast unless you use a glass path corrector.

 

On the other hand, these issues are far more important when the scope is fast and at f/7.8, it probably does not make enough difference in the overall performance to be easily seen, but unless the scope was designed for a prism, the contrast will usually be lowered by using a prism diagonal. Might you see a change in fringing? Sure, but does that mean the contrast transfer is improved? Unlikely. The designer optimized the performance for one wavelength, and when you use a prism, you change the correction of that wavelength, and usually not for the better. 

 

I am attaching a chart that shows the Sperhochroamtism in green. Blue might be slightly improved, but green will be lowered and red will be even more affected, and this is why the contrast will be lowered, but at f/7.8, probably not enough to see

 

Prism spherocrhomatism.png

 

Last time I will say it though. Clap now... Prisms introduce spherical aberration and if the scope has the best correction at green, the green and red SA will be lowered by the prism, unless it is a scope that was purposefully designed to under-correction in green, which the prism would correct.

 

This is unescapable. If you correct for one color perfectly by the design, and you use a prism, that color will be over-corrected. If you use a mirror, that line stays in correction. 

 

My advice it to not take anecdotal evidence of seeing a change in the color fringing as meaning things are improved. You can't improve one color without affecting all of the other colors.  Again, at f/7.8, it is not so important, but with faster highly corrected refractors, I recommend a mirror unless the manufacturer has specified a prism. A prism may change the color fringing of one color, but it comes a the expense of changing all of the other colors as well. It is far to complex to easily predict how all of the colors will behave, but they will be modified from the intent of the optical designer, who strove to make a design that would deliver the best performance when a mirror was used.  If the maker does not specify a prism, you are almost assuredly getting the best performance possible with a mirror.  

 

I know this is a wordy answer, but giving an answer without a deep explanation doesn't really do anything to dispel anecdotal evidence. If the system is perfectly corrected in green, and you put in a prism, it is no longer perfectly corrected in green. The only question now is does it matter to the user. 


Edited by Eddgie, 12 February 2025 - 01:30 PM.

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#3 Polyphemos

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 01:42 PM

Makes me wonder whether Takahashi telescopes are figured for use with their prism diagonals.


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#4 Martinbruce

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 02:17 PM

Thank you Eddie, Baader seems to imply exactly what you have thoroughly pointed out. I think we can put this to rest for most modern refractors; perhaps not Taks though. Thanks again.



#5 Martinbruce

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 02:23 PM

I’d like to add that the Baader Test seemed like such a simple solution to answer the question, Prism Or Mirror? It was the simplicity that struck me. Like the old Kool Aid acid test. Thanks



#6 Souldrop

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 02:54 PM

Given tak doublets (and vixen doublets) tend to be nulled in yellow as well as being moderately slow they probably “play nicer” with prisms than a lot of other fracs.
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#7 Pezdragon

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Posted 12 February 2025 - 08:06 PM

Real life experience with my TEC 140 using the large Zeiss prism showed obvious induced spherical aberration and color correction degradation. I went back to the Baader dielectric mirror and all was well again.


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#8 RTLR 12

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 11:02 AM

Using the Zeiss-spec Amici prism w/BBHS coatings in my Takahashi FC100DZ I don't see any CA until I reach exstream magnification. If I stay within the limits of the scopes specified magnification and with the TOA 1.6x extender, the veiws seem to be better than with the Baader BBHS diagonal and I see no CA at all.

 

YMMV

Stan


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#9 Bill Barlow

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Posted 14 February 2025 - 11:12 AM

Makes me wonder whether Takahashi telescopes are figured for use with their prism diagonals.

I feel that is the case for my FC76 DCU.  The focuser has a very limited range of travel, but using their 1.25” prism diagonal, I can reach focus with all my 1.25” eyepieces.   They include Pentax XW’s, TV Delos and Panoptics and a Siebert 2.9 starsplitter.


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#10 Terra Nova

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Posted 15 February 2025 - 11:40 AM

Using the Zeiss-spec Amici prism w/BBHS coatings in my Takahashi FC100DZ I don't see any CA until I reach exstream magnification. If I stay within the limits of the scopes specified magnification and with the TOA 1.6x extender, the veiws seem to be better than with the Baader BBHS diagonal and I see no CA at all.

 

YMMV

Stan

This (the Baader Zeiss-spec RACI Amici prism w/BBHS coatings and oversized prism), is the only prism diagonal that I use with my refractors anymore as they are all sub F7, the only exception being my one remaining long Fraunhoffer achromat, a 60mm F12, with which I still use a Takahashi prismatic star diagonal. In most cases however it a mirror diagonal for me, generally a TeleVue or a Baader.



#11 Eddgie

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Posted 16 February 2025 - 10:53 AM

Real life experience with my TEC 140 using the large Zeiss prism showed obvious induced spherical aberration and color correction degradation. I went back to the Baader dielectric mirror and all was well again.

 

 

I would expect that to be the case with the large prism for sure. 


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#12 ABQJeff

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Posted 20 February 2025 - 01:26 PM

F/7.8 you are probably fine with either, definitely for low mag viewing.  But sweating over optical quality is a star-Planet, ie high mag, endeavor.

 

If you have any astro buddies, I highly recommend trying a mirror and prism and looking at Sirius at 300x.  That will clearly show which one is better or if there is no difference.

 

In my F/6.5 and faster refractors, for high mag it is only mirrors because prisms give me a “prismatic” light show.

 

However my 102 F/7 barely shows color with prisms (basically I can only tell doing an A-B comparison with a mirror) but it is there, so mirror for that one as well for high mag viewing.

 

Testing is best route.

 

Note: for low mag with my refractors (50x and below) it is Amici prism

diagonals only.



#13 Eddgie

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Posted 22 February 2025 - 10:26 AM

 

 

However my 102 F/7 barely shows color with prisms (basically I can only tell doing an A-B comparison with a mirror) but it is there, so mirror for that one as well for high mag viewing.

 

 

In most viewing, the color errors will not usually be obvious, and the dimmer the subject, the harder it is to see, but on bright stars, and especially Sirius, or the limb of the moon, the error should be much easier to see.

The ultimate test is the sun in white light. Only the best color corrected Apos will show a color free sun in white light and here, the color error of a prism is usually the easiest to see.  I had a few telescopes sold as "Apo" that failed this test, and all were worse with prism diagonals. In all cases, the contrast loss was enough for me to see when studying the incredibly delicate structure of the photosphere in white light.  

 

The sun in white light is the crucible for Apo performance. The vast majority of faster "apos" will fail this test and a prism will make it worse.

 

Any fringing is a sign that the scope is losing contrast, but these changes are often too small to be easily perceived. On extended targets though, if one spends a lot of money on a SD Triplet (or an ED triplet in smaller apertures), the assumption I make is that they spent that money because they wanted the highest performance possible for the aperture. That is just an assumption I make, and I could be wrong, but if someone spends the extra money for a fast triplet Apo using an SD glass like FPL-53 or FCD-100, then my advice to them is that if the best possible performance is desired, unless the manufacturer specifies a prism, the scope will preserve as much contrast as is possible by using a high quality mirror diagonal. 

 

 

The added contrast loss for slower scopes is very small, and even the best observers might not easily see it. If someone thinks there is a cosmetic improvement in the view, then one cannot call them bad for choosing to use a Prism. In the vast majority of cases though, it will not improve the contrast transfer (which is what people buy Apos for) and more than likely, it will lower it, but often it is not enough to be much of a concern. 

 

(I added this edit because I need to be fair. In these posts, I assume the instrument itself has high spherical aberration correction in the finished lenses. If there is some underreaction in the actual lens stack itself due to less than excellent manufacturing quality control, and there is under correction in the green line, it is conceivable that the use of a prism could improve the contrast transfer of that particular sample. If the system was near perfect or slightly overcorrected it would likely make the contrast transfer worse. Once again, for slower systems, this is not going to meaningfully change the contrast transfer, but for very  fast systems, it could in theory, improve the contrast transfer enough to be seen.  This was a bad omission from my first post, and I am embarrassed to having not included it earlier). 


Edited by Eddgie, 22 February 2025 - 10:53 AM.

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