139 replies to this topic

[Playa17bk]

Hi everyone, I'm a new member and bought my first telescope a month ago (Apertura AD12). I'm a bit disappointed in what I am seeing. Planets are in and out of focus even after adjusting the focuser. Everything seems to have a cross shaped glow. If I do see nebulas they are faint and have absolutely no color. Can never see a double star at all. I have read so many topics on this forum and nothing seems to help. Not sure if its just my crappy eyepieces (Orion Plossl series) or something wrong with my eyes (have an appointment with optometrist coming up). I collimate every single time with a laser, yes I have collimated my laser as well. I let my scope acclimate over an hour or more every night. I live in bortle 6 zone. I have not flocked my telescope. Any help would be appreciated, don't hold back, I have thick skin and really want to learn. Thanks in advance.

[Mike Q]

First off the planet going in and out of focus isnt the scope, its the sky.  We call that seeing and it sounds like your seeing conditions sucked.  Secondly the cross shapes that you are seeing are called diffraction spikes and they come from the spider veins holding your secondary mirror.  There is really no way around that.  Color, or lack thereof, the human eye doesnt really see color to well at night.  So what you see is what you are going to see.  You could add filters, an Oiii or a narrowband filter  will bring the nebula up a bit more.  In truth, at least where I am at, it takes a bit more aperture to start seeing color then a 12 inch.  As to the eyepieces, yeah there are better choices out there then what you have.  If its me, i would be looking at the Astro Tech XWA line.  They are attractively priced and a darn fine eyepiece.  The last thing to consider would be a coma corrector.  Actually i would get that first, then the eyepieces.  

Edited by Mike Q, 28 February 2025 - 09:37 AM.

[JerryStellar]

Probably don’t need to be reminded but make sure you let your eyes have time adjust to night vision.. give yourself 15-20 mins of time spent in the dark to adjust.

[Keith Rivich]

I would try this scope out during the day to see if distant objects come into sharp focus (early in the morning is best). The moon is also a good target, while bad seeing can affect the view of the moon it is more forgiving then tiny little planets. 

 

Forget seeing color in nebulae. All but the smaller planetaries are pretty much colorless. 

 

If you suspect your eye you can rotate your head while looking in the eyepiece and see if any defects rotate with you. I seriously doubt this but I suppose its possible. 

 

You can also rotate your eyepieces while viewing to see if any defects rotate at the same time. 

 

I really can't stress this enough for new folks into the hobby:

If at all possible try and hook up with a club and observe with other people. If not possible then try and make a trip or two to a major star party. Don't be bashful, there is plenty of help available just by asking. 

 

Going alone can be very aggravating, potentially a real hobby killer. 

 

Good luck!

[ngc7319_20]

You might find a local club and get an expert to look at the scope.  It is very difficult to diagnose these things remotely.

 

"Cross shaped glow" could be astigmatism in the scope or in your eye.  Although the diffraction pattern from the secondary support (spider) could also make cross shaped patterns.  One diagnostic for cross-shaped patterns, is to rotate stuff and see if the pattern rotates with anything.  If you rotate your head, does the pattern follow you head or the scope?  If you rotate the eyepiece, does the pattern rotate?  Do you see these patterns more at high or low magnifications?  Sometimes one of the mirrors is defective, or is mounted too tightly and becomes bent.

[nitsky]

Hey Art, and welcome to CN!

 

How often have you tried using your new.scope so far?

Often enough you're comfortable with it?

And the biggy....are the.nights you have gone out, are they clear....overcast, very damp...does everything look crisp in the sky, or washed out?

 

Have you had any experience.viewing through telescopes before....A Newtonian reflector like you have now?

 

Do you know anybody near you that's into astronomy who could give yours a looksy?

An astronomy club within an easy drive to take.it out to a.meeting?

 

You've got a heck of a scope, and when we get the wrinkles.worked out you'll be proud of it.

 

Night sky

[ntph]

First, check your expectations.  Next, think about where you are observing from and how that meshes with your expectations. 

 

A 12 inch Dob is not often a first scope. Have you had any experience using or viewing through any other telescopes or even binoculars to use as a comparison to what you are seeing in your scope? From similar locations? It is actually a surprise to most people what we see in a telescope from even reasonably dark skies--"see that faint star near the centre? go towards 2 o'clock and there is a faint fuzzy blob--yeah, that' s M51 the Whirlpool Galaxy" "Yeah that one you saw the amazing photo of"    Welcome to the real world. I have a 12 inch Dob and live in B7. Faint fuzzy grey blobs are what I see with that and I have some of the best oculars you can buy. Now under B4 skies, it gets better but it's still faint fuzzy grey blobs.. compared to what I get with hours deep exposures and a lot of fancy gear and time at the computer. 

 

Can't see a double star? Are you sure you are actually looking at it? if so, then your eyepiece focal length or collimation isn't right. If neither of those then you may  have some other  serious issues. 

 

Sounds like an experienced buddy could give you either some reassurance, some helpful advice or a reality check, or maybe all three. Good luck with all of that.  

[SeattleScott]

Nebulae are faint and relatively colorless. If you want the colorful, bright nebulae, get a Seestar. The magic of the 12" Dob is even being able to see an interstellar cloud millions of miles away. They aren't going to look like the photographs. 

 

Yes, spikes on bright objects are diffraction spikes. SCT don't have this. If it really bugs you, you can get curved spider vanes. But generally this is just considered normal for a Dob.

 

If your planetary views are wavy, that suggest atmosphere or tube currents. Either you aren't giving your scope time to acclimate to the outside temperature, or you were using more magnification than the atmosphere was allowing that night.

[areyoukiddingme]

Sky and cooling are top of the list. But it does sound like there might something else going on.

 

Tight mirror clips would be my next stop. 

 

Or, is the mirror getting some un-even pressure on the sides?

 

Once you are happy that the primary isn't getting some uneven pressure, the secondary would be the place to look. I don't know what the holder is, but the two common types would be silicone to a stalk or a aluminum sleeve with an edge--either of those could cause problems.

[emflocater]

Not sure what type of spider vanes you have but if its the 4 way vanes you can double check and see if the manufacturer did not adjust the vanes correctly. What I mean by this is you can view the vanes from the front of the tube and see if the vanes are tipped on an angle. If so, you can gently loosen the nuts/bolts that attach the vanes and tilt the vanes so they are straight across and re-tighten the nuts/bolts. Though this will not eliminate the spikes it will minimize the thickness of the spike lines you see in the eyepiece and make the view better and more tolerable which means the vanes will block less light entering the tube. You may need to check collimation after with just minor adjustments of the secondary.

 

Cheers

Don  

Edited by emflocater, 27 February 2025 - 08:53 PM.

[Playa17bk]

You guys are amazing, thank you guys so much for the fast replies.

Mike, thanks for the recommendations, I will definitely check them out.

Jerry, yes, I do allow my eyes to adjust.

Keith, I'm going to try as you suggested and see what I can see in the morning.

I have heard the advice about clubs and star parties almost everywhere, but I've always been a shy lone wolf.type, so its a bit intimidating meeting new people, although I will say, if any community would ease my worries it would be this one.

NGC7319, I am suspecting I may have astigmatism hence the upcoming eye appointment. I am going to try rotating the eyepieces as you suggested.

Nitsky, I will admit the nights have had bad seeing, stars twinkling a lot, but other than that clear skies, no clouds, fog, etc.I have never looked through a telescope before, I have used mine every night I've had a chance too, buts been maybe 10 days max.

NTPH, yes, I definitely know I'm not going to see what I see in pictures, but still a bit underwhelming at what I am seeing. For the double star I tried Sirrus, maybe its the wrong star to focus on? I think I really need to make a new friend who.knows about this stuff, but that's always been an issue with me my entire life.

Seattle Scott, I am looking at buying some.good filters, Lumicon, Astronomik, etc, but dam they are expensive. I am leaving it out for more than hour, do you think I should give it more time. I have a fan on it that I have never used, maybe that is the problem. Also, temps have been varying a lot so maybe that's it?

Thanks again everyone you guys rock and I love being a part of this community, I have never felt so welcomed, and encouraged at starting something new like this.

[PalomarJack]

Hi everyone, I'm a new member and bought my first telescope a month ago (Apertura AD12). I'm a bit disappointed in what I am seeing. Planets are in and out of focus even after adjusting the focuser. Everything seems to have a cross shaped glow. If I do see nebulas they are faint and have absolutely no color. Can never see a double star at all. I have read so many topics on this forum and nothing seems to help. Not sure if its just my crappy eyepieces (Orion Plossl series) or something wrong with my eyes (have an appointment with optometrist coming up). I collimate every single time with a laser, yes I have collimated my laser as well. I let my scope acclimate over an hour or more every night. I live in bortle 6 zone. I have not flocked my telescope. Any help would be appreciated, don't hold back, I have thick skin and really want to learn. Thanks in advance.

12" is way too big for a first scope, but what is done, is done. The best suggestion at this point, as mentioned above, is seek out a local club/organization and get help directly. You can also get access to other members eyepieces to see what works best for your scope/eye combination. And yes, your eyes have a huge impact on what eyepiece is going to work best, especially at fast focal ratios, f/5, f/4, etc.

-------------------------------------

For those just starting out, start with these:

 

 

Good quality binoculars for the first few months, because you did join a club you will have access to club instruments and other members as you try out theirs. But remember, no one is obligated to share their equipment. Be respectful. A local member may even lone you their older 'scope for a few months, possibly with an option to buy. It happens! If this turns out not to be "your thing", you got some dandy binoculars out of the deal.

 

 

Your first telescope should be a good quality 80mm to 130mm (3.25 to 5") aperture on a quality mount. Shop on Cloudy Nights and other sites for used equipment from trustworthy members. Look at their ratings to be more sure. Better yet, see if they are more local so you can meet at a star party so they can assist you with setup and usage of the prospective gear. Even if you have to drive a 100 miles or more, it may be worth it.

 

 

The next size should be at least twice the aperture of the smaller instrument. A jump from say 80mm to 130mm is just too trifling. At least 8" (200mm) is a much better choice. Then you can use your first telescope for traveling or upgrade it for automated imaging while you use the bigger, possibly Dobsonian mounted instrument for visual.

Edited by PalomarJack, 27 February 2025 - 08:48 PM.

[Keith Rivich]

Where do you live? There may be help closer then you think...

[Playa17bk]

Areyoukiddingme, I actually started reading about that last night, still super new to this so some of the jargon escapes me. By mirror clips do you mean the adjusting screws on the bottom of the OTA, my scope has three whites to lossen the mirror and three blacks to adjust it. I got caught in a rabbit hole last night about this subject. Got some advice to lossen the screws, I did that and collimation went all out of whack, kind of regretted doing it, took forever to get it back and I'm still not happy. My Collimation before last night, IMO, has always been good, I do it with laser and use the star test afterwards. How would I know if there was uneven pressure on the primary? You completely lost me at the secondary holder question, I don't know what the holder is.

[Playa17bk]

Vanguard, I'm definitely going to check that out right now, great thought! 

[Playa17bk]

Meant emflocater, not Vanguard (still new to this)

[Keith Rivich]

Areyoukiddingme, I actually started reading about that last night, still super new to this so some of the jargon escapes me. By mirror clips do you mean the adjusting screws on the bottom of the OTA, my scope has three whites to lossen the mirror and three blacks to adjust it. I got caught in a rabbit hole last night about this subject. Got some advice to lossen the screws, I did that and collimation went all out of whack, kind of regretted doing it, took forever to get it back and I'm still not happy. My Collimation before last night, IMO, has always been good, I do it with laser and use the star test afterwards. How would I know if there was uneven pressure on the primary? You completely lost me at the secondary holder question, I don't know what the holder is.

Mirror clips are three brackets that prevent the mirror from falling out if the scope is pointed below horizontal. They will be visible above the mirror. The brackets should be just above the glass but not touching the glass. The mirror must be allowed to move around just a bit. 

[Playa17bk]

PalomarJack I come from the school of go big or go home, so I had to go with the big ole dob

[Jethro7]

Hi everyone,

Any help would be appreciated, don't hold back, I have thick skin and really want to learn. Thanks in advance.

Hello Playa17bk.

+1 on the postings. I'm sorry you are having difficulties with your 12" Dob and hope you can get things sorted out to your satifaction. As mentioned, Seeing Conditions play a huge part especially during planetary viewing. whenever my Seeing Conditions are not really that great and the planets look like they are sitting in the bottom of a pool of water, I switch to viewing other objects where the Seeing Conditions don't effect the views as much. One thing not mentioned that I run into often is the propensity of the secondary mirror dewing up. Dew will shut down a viewing session cold. I use a 2" eyepiece dew heater strap wrapped around the secondary mirror housing for dew prevention. In the beginning  sometimes folks viewing expectations are much bigger then the reality. The bottom line is, you will never be able to see everything and the views will never come close to what you see in the Hubble images. with that being said, there is still plenty of awesome viewable objects left that you will be able to see. The Astro Hobby is not for everyone. In my case I find great joy in the apparent little things and with that, I enjoy all the wonder, the type of wonder that a child knows. Like viewing a Quasar, they look like non descript fuzzy stars and on their face don't really seem like much but then the stunning thought enters my mind. "I'm actually able to see the light from an object that is located across the known universe" I find that reality, really mind blowing. I hope you can get sorted out and can find the same joy and wonder that Backyard Astronomy has brought to me. 

 

HAPPY SKIES AND KEEP LOOKING UP Jethro

Edited by Jethro7, 27 February 2025 - 09:21 PM.

[Playa17bk]

Keith, I live in Santa Clarita, Ca

[areyoukiddingme]

Areyoukiddingme, I actually started reading about that last night, still super new to this so some of the jargon escapes me. By mirror clips do you mean the adjusting screws on the bottom of the OTA, my scope has three whites to lossen the mirror and three blacks to adjust it. I got caught in a rabbit hole last night about this subject. Got some advice to lossen the screws, I did that and collimation went all out of whack, kind of regretted doing it, took forever to get it back and I'm still not happy. My Collimation before last night, IMO, has always been good, I do it with laser and use the star test afterwards. How would I know if there was uneven pressure on the primary? You completely lost me at the secondary holder question, I don't know what the holder is.

A business card distance between clips and mirror surface should be there. The mirror should rotate freely on its cell. Don't try to rotate if the clips appear to be touching, of course, so you don't do any damage to your coating.

[Barlowbill]

Sirius is NOT the Double Star to try.  The Pup is tiny and can be hidden by the glow of the big star.  If you look for stars scintillating, don't look at Sirius.  It always scintillates (twinkles).  Run your fan as soon as you set-up.  Keep it running while viewing unless it vibrates too much.  An hour or two of acclimation should be good.  Star with your lowest magnification eyepiece.  Get it focused.  Then the next higher nag, eyepiece.  Get it focused.  work your way up in magnification until you can't get it focused.  The last one to focus is that night's "seeing" limit.  For that night!  Of course if you only have two eyepieces....buy more eyepieces!  Don't worry about filters.  Worry about being able to see with the scope.  Learn about it in daylight.  It is a lot easier.  A far off telephone pole or whatever.  The farther away, the better.  Keep steady at it and you will do just fine.  No one said this was easy.

[MikeTahtib]

PalomarJack I come from the school of go big or go home, so I had to go with the big ole dob

There are varying opinions on this that get expressed at times.  I am more in your camp than Jack's.  My first telescope as an adult was an 8", and I"m glad I didn't get anything smaller, or I might not have stayed with the hobby.  With my 8" i can actually see what stuff looks like, whereas with many small tlescopes, it's more of a tiny little wisp.

 

I find double stars difficult, because I"m never sure if I'm seeing the double star or just two stars that happen to appear close together.

 

To get an idea of what you should be able to see, take a look through the sketching forums and the gallery for sketches.  These are peoples' depictions of what they were actually able to see through the eyepiece.  They can give a much better idea of what to expect than photos ever can.  

 

Drifting in and out of focus is normal for planets.  Focus your scope as well as possible then track the planet with your scope as you watch it.  As it drifts in and out of focus, you're watching for those moments when it drifts into sharp focus and stays there for a few seconds.  If you're lucky, you will be out one night and have a very steady atmosphere above you, and planets will stay in focus all the time.  I only experienced this once, just before sunrise in my back yard.  I was astonished at the detail I could see on Jupiter.  Usually, all I can see on Jupiter is a couple bands.

[jupiter122]

You guys are amazing, thank you guys so much for the fast replies.

Mike, thanks for the recommendations, I will definitely check them out.

Jerry, yes, I do allow my eyes to adjust.

Keith, I'm going to try as you suggested and see what I can see in the morning.

I have heard the advice about clubs and star parties almost everywhere, but I've always been a shy lone wolf.type, so its a bit intimidating meeting new people, although I will say, if any community would ease my worries it would be this one.

NGC7319, I am suspecting I may have astigmatism hence the upcoming eye appointment. I am going to try rotating the eyepieces as you suggested.

Nitsky, I will admit the nights have had bad seeing, stars twinkling a lot, but other than that clear skies, no clouds, fog, etc.I have never looked through a telescope before, I have used mine every night I've had a chance too, buts been maybe 10 days max.

NTPH, yes, I definitely know I'm not going to see what I see in pictures, but still a bit underwhelming at what I am seeing. For the double star I tried Sirrus, maybe its the wrong star to focus on? I think I really need to make a new friend who.knows about this stuff, but that's always been an issue with me my entire life.

Seattle Scott, I am looking at buying some.good filters, Lumicon, Astronomik, etc, but dam they are expensive. I am leaving it out for more than hour, do you think I should give it more time. I have a fan on it that I have never used, maybe that is the problem. Also, temps have been varying a lot so maybe that's it?

Thanks again everyone you guys rock and I love being a part of this community, I have never felt so welcomed, and encouraged at starting something new like this.

I’d first exhaust all of the suggestions in this thread that don’t require you to go purchase more  eyepieces or other accessories. If you’re just getting started in the hobby, you don’t even know if you’ll stick with it. (As an aside, I wouldn’t particularly agree with the poster who said your next scope should always  double the aperture of your current one. I think that, contrary with what just poster stated, you might very well notice the difference between, say, and 80 mm refractor and 130 mm one. A 130mm telescope has significantly more light gathering power than an 80mm telescope; roughly 2.6 times more light can be collected by the 130mm telescope, as the light gathering power scales with the square of the aperture size. But whether the additional cost would be worth it to you, depends on a whole bunch factors, making it, in my view, inappropriate to say that you should always follow that rule.)

 

Tim

Edited by jupiter122, 27 February 2025 - 10:07 PM.

[SparkyMike2010]

I just got the same scope as you and just like you I’m brand new with no prior experience. The learning curve has been steep& difficult but rewarding and enjoyable. No club for me or friends in the hobby either.
Jupiter still looks muddy to me but I can see several bands. I’m sure it’s just the seeing as my ad12 passed a star test with flying colors. That being said it took me HOURS and 3 attempts to get the collimation locked in. My first night out was rough and disappointing so I feel your pain.
Collimating with The laser didn’t work for me no matter what I did with it. I recommend collimating it with a Cheshire and collimation cap using the procedure smeared all over these forums.
https://www.astro-ba...ation guide.htm
If you do this collimation procedure, don’t just blindly follow the steps but practice until you really understand what you’re doing with each step. Then even when you still have a small error at the end you’ll know exactly what to do without the direction to lock in the last little bit.

Need some inspiration? Get out and look at Orion Nebula. It’s easy to find using the book turn left at Orion or any app or astrohopper. With dark adapted eyes and some patience it was awe inspiring site and I saw a green hue to the nebula with no filter. Use the 30mm your scope came with and a 2x barlow if you’ve got it.

This is all to say you’ll get better advice than mine from more experienced people on these forums, so all I can offer is shared suffering, the litany of mistakes I’ve made so far along the way and what my experience has been.

Just remind yourself, we have CHOSEN the HARD way into this hobby. We didn’t buy the telescope they recommended, didn’t follow the procedure they suggested . Embrace the suck, love the challenge, don’t give up. Once I saw Orion Nebula I knew I was in the right hobby and it was all worthwhile. I hope you find your equivalent experience. Feel free to dm me anytime.

Edited by SparkyMike2010, 27 February 2025 - 10:09 PM.