104 replies to this topic

[Tom K]

If you have not seen it yet, check out Cuiv the Lazy Geek's interview with the CEO of ZWO on YouTube:

 

https://youtu.be/Phe...8gNqTzQCVqr-L-t

 

It seems the S70 is a real thing and will be coming soon!   I would love to see it with a cooled camera - with EQ mode that would be an awesome travel setup.

[donniesoprano]

If there were no improvements from the S50 to the S70 except aperture, what would you think the selling point of the S70 will be for those with the S50?  I’m guessing 70mm is still going to be too small for planetary.

 

I know that the video says the next round should have improvements over the current models, but I'm strictly curious what 20mm would get you with the current platform.

 

ds

[gfamily]

Twice the light gathering aperture, half the imaging time

[JonNPR]

Sam also said new sensors for both the S50 and the S30 are coming. Plus a ZWO Wedge for equitorial mode.

These are all fantastic advances, and all in the interview linked above. No i indication of timing though. But I doubt he would reveal them if they were indefinite years away.

[Psion]

Twice the light gathering aperture, half the imaging time

It'll depend on the camera.

[LDW47]

Sam also said new sensors for both the S50 and the S30 are coming. Plus a ZWO Wedge for equitorial mode.

These are all fantastic advances, and all in the interview linked above. No i indication of timing though. But I doubt he would reveal them if they were indefinite years away.

Don't count anything out, incl time frame, eh. There are a lot of factors that come into play when designing anything and everything.  Remember you can only hold your breath so long, lol.

[gfamily]

It'll depend on the camera.

Yes, I was working on the basis of "I'm strictly curious what 20mm would get you with the current platform"

[Psion]

Although it doesn't seem like it, with the same camera and F5 optics, it won't bring anything different except more resolution. Why? Because with the larger diameter, the focal length is also increased and the same amount of photons hit the pixel as with the Seestar 50.

[PEterW]

Be interesting to see if they gain a wide angle camera and whether they enable the wide angle camera to be used for night imaging properly… Milky Way shots.

Peter

[Marco Prunotto]

…after this amazing infancy time, it would be great to see someone coming up with a more professional version with all the things people mentioned above (cooled sensor, equatorial, autoguiding, multispectral, etc..)

 

Innovation though is on the horizon also on optics. Take a moment to read this applied physics letter article. This coupled to features already available would be real advancement to amateur astronomy also to go to higher diameters.

 

https://pubs.aip.org...edFrom=fulltext

[smiller]

Although it doesn't seem like it, with the same camera and F5 optics, it won't bring anything different except more resolution. Why? Because with the larger diameter, the focal length is also increased and the same amount of photons hit the pixel as with the Seestar 50.

Actually although all F5 scope route the same amount of sky light to each pixel, a 70mm collects 2x the light per unit area of sky as a 50mm, so as long as the target fits within the field of view, a 70 mm will collect twice as many photons of the target which is really an important measure of merit.

 

The fact that those photons are distributed amongst twice as many pixels is not that important as long as your read noise is low, then you will still get the benefit of twice many target photons..  If you want those photons to be concentrated onto fewer pixels you can always sub sample the image afterwards to get back to the same pixel scale as the S50 and that is equivalent as long as you read noise contribution was low.

 

So a 70mm would have significant value, but since the S50 has such a narrow field of view (tiny sensor) you really want to couple the larger scope with a larger sensor.  It’s possible a larger sensor will require better optics to hold a nice sharp image across the entire field, possibly a field flattener so I wouldn’t be surprised that a larger sensor requires somewhat upgraded optics.  Either more lenses with more low dispersion glass lenses.

 

So my guess is that if a 70 mm ever comes out it will be coupled with a larger sensor with an upgraded optical design so you get the light gathering power of 70mm without losing any FOV, and hopefully actually gaining FOV.  Perhaps the design would be improved enough to even enable <F5 with good quality across a larger sensor… hey, if I’m going to dream, might as well dream big!

Edited by smiller, 02 March 2025 - 12:00 PM.

[LDW47]

You are forgeting that with bigger comes a much, much bigger cost and that is important to a vast majority that bought into this end of astronomy, they wanted fast, easy and cheap.  Funny that issue is always hidden, always left out by the knowing posters, eh.  LOL !  PS:  And with much less potential buyers that cost escalates even more, right.

[smiller]

You are forgeting that with bigger comes a much, much bigger cost and that is important to a vast majority that bought into this end of astronomy, they wanted fast, easy and cheap.  Funny that issue is always hidden, always left out by the knowing posters, eh.  LOL !  PS:  And with much less potential buyers that cost escalates even more, right.

I agree.   My guess is just improved S30 and S50's with better optics and larger sensors or reduced F-ratios or a combination of both.  I also think a narrower dual band filter will be nice.  This can probably be delivered in a similar package with a more reasonable increase in cost.   A lot can be done with a high quality 50mm scope with a decent sized sensor and a good narrow dual band filter, they've really only scratched the surface on the 50mm opportunity.

[Psion]

That's why I wrote that it would depend on the sensor. To me a 70mm/F4 scope would make sense with a cooled IMX585 sensor.

[NDBirdman]

All I gotta say is if it gives a great *full sized* pic, I'm in.  These portrait sized pics are ok but for alot more $$..... no more tiny/narrow pics.  I'm eye-ballin the Origin to see where it goes.

[Dwight J]

Bigger is not always better.  One feature I like in the S50 is that it is small and in the case, easy to take virtually anywhere.  Another feature I like is simplicity; set it and forget it kind.  Ease of use gets lost when you add complexity like polar aligning, cooled sensor, wedge, and so on.  Price goes up as now shafts, bearings, drive motors, and other support structures gain weight and size.  I like the Seestar to get away from the busyness of all that.  A smart scope with all those features including bigger lens and sensor will appeal to those who don’t already have similar gear.  For me, I am attracted more to the S30 for its form factor and wider field.  

[jprideaux]

I think it would be a good move for ZWO to offer a S70 smart-scope. I think they could easily make it up to around $2000 and be very competitive with other offerings for people that are happy with their S50 but want to upgrade to something better without the complexity (and struggle to get it working) of a DIY rig. Right now the Celestron Origin is at the top of the smart-scope upgrade path. A well-designed S70 for around $2000 could give it a lot of competition. IMO if ZWO tried to make a S70 “on the cheap” with a lot of compromised parts, that might be a disappointment. So I actually hope they don’t come out with a S70 for only $999.95.

Edited by jprideaux, 02 March 2025 - 03:28 PM.

[LDW47]

They won't come out cheap, when they come out bigger, we'll pay bigger, I'll pay bigger depending on ........., eh.  Its time for ZWO to break out leaving alot of cheap dreamers in the wake, crying the blues, lol.  PS:  ZWO is not family they are a great business, they just know, right.  PPS:  That very capable S30 is a gift to us at a rock bottom price, lets be happy, eh.

Edited by LDW47, 02 March 2025 - 04:06 PM.

[Stevan Klaas]

I only hope they will improve the wobbly mechanics, it’s the only thing I am not really happy with.

 

Sometimes, retention rate drops way too much, and it’s not a question of bad skies, it just moves too much between 10 sec exposures. Actually the retention algorithm is a complete black box, we cannot diagnose what is going on or decide on the tolerance, and it does not save rejected frames. Don’t know if it’s field rotation, drift or “lost star”.

 

Let’s see if it improves with eqmode with polaris blind alignement…Or at least let us put 2 seconds exposure to do (un)lucky imaging.

 

 

Then I didn’t understand about this existing Seestar enhancements with bigger sensors. Will be a new product so that we can give our 3 months old Seestar to our little nephew, or is it a sort of upgrade kit or service ?

 

I guess a square sensor would be better for alt/az and ease the framing even in eq mode, but not very “Iphone”.

 

Then a 12Kg sort of Vaonis Stellina would defeat a bit the purpose of “cabin bag” portable scope. Difficult balance…let’s see, but they are definitely community oriented, should be OK.

Edited by Stevan Klaas, 02 March 2025 - 05:13 PM.

[LDW47]

I only hope they will improve the wobbly mechanics, it’s the only thing I am not really happy with.

 

Sometimes, retention rate drops way too much, and it’s not a question of bad skies, it just moves too much between 10 sec exposures. Actually the retention algorithm is a complete black box, we cannot diagnose what is going on or decide on the tolerance, and it does not save rejected frames. Don’t know if it’s field rotation, drift or “lost star”.

 

Let’s see if it improves with eqmode with polaris blind alignement…Or at least let us put 2 seconds exposure to do (un)lucky imaging.

 

 

Then I didn’t understand about this existing Seestar enhancements with bigger sensors. Will be a new product so that we can give our 3 months old Seestar to our little nephew, or is it a sort of upgrade kit or service ?

 

I guess a square sensor would be better for alt/az, but not very “Iphone”.

 

Then a 12Kg sort of Vaonis Stellina would defeat a bit the purpose of “cabin bag” portable scope. Difficult balance…let’s see, but they are definitely community oriented, should be OK.

The bottom line will be and has always been if you want improvements / enhancements, if you want more and better you pay for it or just truck on with what you have, eh.  Whats the issue with what was said / hinted at / implied, really. We all wanted to know the future, some on the cheap (lol) and now we know some more, right.  My wallet is right here in my pocket !

[Starlancer]

If they slap a 585 in it, that would be awesome!

[LDW47]

I only hope they will improve the wobbly mechanics, it’s the only thing I am not really happy with.

 

Sometimes, retention rate drops way too much, and it’s not a question of bad skies, it just moves too much between 10 sec exposures. Actually the retention algorithm is a complete black box, we cannot diagnose what is going on or decide on the tolerance, and it does not save rejected frames. Don’t know if it’s field rotation, drift or “lost star”.

 

Let’s see if it improves with eqmode with polaris blind alignement…Or at least let us put 2 seconds exposure to do (un)lucky imaging.

 

 

Then I didn’t understand about this existing Seestar enhancements with bigger sensors. Will be a new product so that we can give our 3 months old Seestar to our little nephew, or is it a sort of upgrade kit or service ?

 

I guess a square sensor would be better for alt/az, but not very “Iphone”.

 

Then a 12Kg sort of Vaonis Stellina would defeat a bit the purpose of “cabin bag” portable scope. Difficult balance…let’s see, but they are definitely community oriented, should be OK.

Precision this and precision that to correct a 'perceived bad wobble' won't be cheap, I don't think you need that perceived need.  Just IMHO, eh.

[RedLionNJ]

Sometimes, retention rate drops way too much, and it’s not a question of bad skies, it just moves too much between 10 sec exposures. Actually the retention algorithm is a complete black box, we cannot diagnose what is going on or decide on the tolerance, and it does not save rejected frames. Don’t know if it’s field rotation, drift or “lost star”.

 

 

It does if you tell it to!

[Brent Campbell]

I think it would be a good move for ZWO to offer a S70 smart-scope. I think they could easily make it up to around $2000 and be very competitive with other offerings for people that are happy with their S50 but want to upgrade to something better without the complexity (and struggle to get it working) of a DIY rig. Right now the Celestron Origin is at the top of the smart-scope upgrade path. A well-designed S70 for around $2000 could give it a lot of competition. IMO if ZWO tried to make a S70 “on the cheap” with a lot of compromised parts, that might be a disappointment. So I actually hope they don’t come out with a S70 for only $999.95.

The original was what $595.  I was one of the first purchasers.  I eventually sold it.  There are things I didn’t like about it.

 

1) Narrow FOV

2) Really long exposure times

3) Bugs - the thing couldn’t find a full moon.  Really it couldn’t.

 

A 70 mm with a better camera would solve many of the issues.  If you go too high end they would be competing with the other high end systems out there.  Lots of competition in that space.

 

I would purchase one if it costs up to $1000, otherwise I’ll wait until I can afford a higher end solution.  

 

Edit:  I just did a bit of internet searchinga s ZWO makes a smart module called an ASIAR.  See it with camera and there is your high end solution (add Telescope and mount).

 

I want to suggest to the world that zwo build a kit where you supply your own optics and mount.   You purchase a module that includes a camera, plug it into your mount such as the skywatcher azgti, add your own scope a, phone and a  tablet.  Instant eaa with the usability of the SEeStar but an upgradable system.  

Edited by Brent Campbell, 02 March 2025 - 07:09 PM.

[LDW47]

The original was what $595.  I was one of the first purchasers.  I eventually sold it.  There are things I didn’t like about it.

 

1) Narrow FOV

2) Really long exposure times

3) Bugs - the thing couldn’t find a full moon.  Really it couldn’t.

 

A 70 mm with a better camera would solve many of the issues.  If you go too high end they would be competing with the other high end systems out there.  Lots of competition in that space.

 

I would purchase one if it costs up to $1000, otherwise I’ll wait until I can afford a higher end solution.  

 

Edit:  I just did a bit of internet searchinga s ZWO makes a smart module called an ASIAR.  See it with camera and there is your high end solution (add Telescope and mount).

 

I want to suggest to the world that zwo build a kit where you supply your own optics and mount.   You purchase a module that includes a camera, plug it into your mount such as the skywatcher azgti, add your own scope a, phone and a  tablet.  Instant eaa with the usability of the SEeStar but an upgradable system.  

$1000 you are dreamin' and wishin' and hopin', like an old song from the 60's once said, eh.  And goin' by what you are sayin' is just ........, lol.