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KUO HFW 12.5mm vs Masuyama 10mm

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#1 wrighty338

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Posted 14 March 2025 - 01:14 PM

KUO's Noblex replica 12.5mm with 84 AFOV vs Masuyama 10mm 85 AFOV both very similarly priced £210 vs £222 so magnification difference aside which should i opt for in my binocular telescope F/5.6 FL=390mm? I have no eye relief requirements for glasses - i butt my face right up into eyepieces lol.gif

 

I noted the Masuyama's description When used in telescopes with f-ratio f/8 or above, their performance is very impressive! How does f-ratio affect the views? 

 

I also note the size of the Masuyama 10mm is more like the size of my 10mm UFF's which don't look to have a lot of glass in them, the HFW's look much larger - is this just how they've managed to construct them and does it really affect views on offer?

 

Perhaps id be better with the HFW at 39x and choosing the only other 1.25 Masuyama 16mm at 24x

 

Thoughts?

 



#2 CrazyPanda

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Posted 14 March 2025 - 01:34 PM

I noted the Masuyama's description When used in telescopes with f-ratio f/8 or above, their performance is very impressive! How does f-ratio affect the views?

 

The Masus only have 5 elements. Off-axis sharpness rapidly degrades in short focal ratio telescopes. And frankly, I would bet on-axis sharpness does as well.

 

I have the 35mm Masuyama MOP (also 5 elements) and it's noticeably less sharp than my 35 Panoptic.

 

While on-axis sharpness is not as impacted by focal ratio as off-axis sharpness is, it *is* impacted. I would wager in a short focal ratio, you'll see better overall performance from the HFW.

 

In a longer focal ratio, the Masuyama would be great.


Edited by CrazyPanda, 14 March 2025 - 01:34 PM.

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#3 SeattleScott

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Posted 14 March 2025 - 01:39 PM

Many would argue F8 is pushing it for the Masuyama. F5.6 would be a no go. The eyepiece simply doesn’t have enough elements to handle that light cone. It is intended to be a minimal glass, maximum contrast option for high F ratio scopes. But at F5.6 you don’t want minimal glass, or if you do, you want closer to 50 AFOV. So you can choose between a Plossl/Ortho for maximum contrast, or a complex eyepiece that will have a touch more light scatter if you want wide AFOV.

The Baader Morpheus would be the competition for the 12.5 at F5.6. Not the Masuyama.
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#4 Astrojensen

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Posted 14 March 2025 - 01:46 PM

I've not tried the Masuyama 10/85° at f/6, but I've used the 16/85° at f/6 in my WO 72mm ED and at f/5 in a friend's 125mm APM binocular. It is REMARKABLY sharp on-axis, even at these fast f-ratios, but the edge is not so pretty. 

 

The 16/85° is a very comfortable bino eyepiece, but I don't know about the 10/85°. I'll get a second 10/85 in a few days, so if you are a bit patient, I'll report back as soon as I get the chance to try it out. 

 

 

Clear skies!

Thomas, Denmark


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#5 wrighty338

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Posted 14 March 2025 - 01:59 PM

Great replies and insight thanks! 

 

I'll get a second 10/85 in a few days, so if you are a bit patient, I'll report back as soon as I get the chance to try it out. 

Sure thing, no rush with the lighter nights drawing in - soon it will be off season lol.gif



#6 SeattleScott

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Posted 14 March 2025 - 02:12 PM

You have to think of it in terms of the shape of the light cone as it passes through the eyepiece. Let's take an extreme example of a custom 8" F3 reflector versus an 8" F20 Mak Cass.

 

With the F3, you have 8" of aperture that focuses down to a point over a distance of just 24". With the Mak, you have 8" of aperture that focuses down to a point over 160". It's a very different shape. With F3, the size of the light cone is crashing down fast, so it really kind of looks triangular. The F20 is more like a straight line that eventually closes down to a point. As the light passes through the eyepiece, it is easier to handle light traveling in a nearly straight line than it is light coming in at a steep angle. It takes more elements to correct across the field when the light is coming in at a steep angle, versus relatively straight. Now you are at F5.6 not F3, but that's still pretty fast. The Masuyama would resemble Han Solo jumping to hyperspace, with the center of the view being clear and sharp, and the stars around the edge being more like streaks. 

 

Something like the 12.5 HiFW or 12.5 Morpheus will probably have eight elements instead of five. Consequently, there will be a touch more light scatter, but this is just a subtle difference. While the outer field will be much sharper, perhaps even sharp up to the field stop. So you sacrifice a touch of contrast in the center in order to have good correction across the whole view, and be able to use the whole view.

 

Really, at F5.6, the outer view is going to be so abberated in the Masuyama, that you might as well just cut it off. A 53 Masuyama will deliver the same contrast without the streaky stars around the edge of the view. And it will be cheaper, and perhaps have a bit more eye relief. Do you want 85 AFOV where the central 50 AFOV is sharp and the outer 35 AFOV is messy? Or just 53 AFOV of sharpness?

 

Or around 80 AFOV of sharpness, but just a touch less sharp in the center?

 

Those are your choices at F5.6.


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#7 wrighty338

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Posted 14 March 2025 - 03:35 PM

That's a great explanation Scott thanks


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#8 RichA

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Posted 14 March 2025 - 11:49 PM

KUO's Noblex replica 12.5mm with 84 AFOV vs Masuyama 10mm 85 AFOV both very similarly priced £210 vs £222 so magnification difference aside which should i opt for in my binocular telescope F/5.6 FL=390mm? I have no eye relief requirements for glasses - i butt my face right up into eyepieces lol.gif

 

I noted the Masuyama's description When used in telescopes with f-ratio f/8 or above, their performance is very impressive! How does f-ratio affect the views? 

 

I also note the size of the Masuyama 10mm is more like the size of my 10mm UFF's which don't look to have a lot of glass in them, the HFW's look much larger - is this just how they've managed to construct them and does it really affect views on offer?

 

Perhaps id be better with the HFW at 39x and choosing the only other 1.25 Masuyama 16mm at 24x

 

Thoughts?

The edge definition in the Masuyama "Super Plossls" isn't anywhere near as good as the Noblex or Naglers, correct?



#9 SeattleScott

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Posted 15 March 2025 - 12:20 AM

The edge definition in the Masuyama "Super Plossls" isn't anywhere near as good as the Noblex or Naglers, correct?

The 85s or the 53s?



#10 Starman1

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Posted 15 March 2025 - 04:04 PM

KUO's Noblex replica 12.5mm with 84 AFOV vs Masuyama 10mm 85 AFOV both very similarly priced £210 vs £222 so magnification difference aside which should i opt for in my binocular telescope F/5.6 FL=390mm? I have no eye relief requirements for glasses - i butt my face right up into eyepieces lol.gif

 

I noted the Masuyama's description When used in telescopes with f-ratio f/8 or above, their performance is very impressive! How does f-ratio affect the views? 

 

I also note the size of the Masuyama 10mm is more like the size of my 10mm UFF's which don't look to have a lot of glass in them, the HFW's look much larger - is this just how they've managed to construct them and does it really affect views on offer?

 

Perhaps id be better with the HFW at 39x and choosing the only other 1.25 Masuyama 16mm at 24x

 

Thoughts?

The 12.5mm KUO Hi-FW 84° has serious edge of field brightening.  It's sharp across the entire field, but due to that issue, I sold it.  Everybody can see it if you look for it.

The Masuyama 10mm will only be sharp in the center 50% of the field in your scope.

I'm also not a fan of ultrawide fields in binoculars since you can't look at the edges of the field.  I advise sticking to 68-72° max.

I would look elsewhere for eyepieces for your binoscope.


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#11 eyeoftexas

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Posted 15 March 2025 - 09:08 PM

The 12.5mm KUO Hi-FW 84° has serious edge of field brightening.  It's sharp across the entire field, but due to that issue, I sold it.  Everybody can see it if you look for it.

 

Does the APM version of this eyepiece have it too?



#12 Starman1

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Posted 15 March 2025 - 09:59 PM

Does the APM version of this eyepiece have it too?

Yes. That's the one I owned.
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#13 wrighty338

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Posted 16 March 2025 - 01:08 PM

Does the APM version of this eyepiece have it too?

They are the same thing.

 

Worth noting that APM are stocking the genuine Noblex for 1300 euro's a pop



#14 wrighty338

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Posted 16 March 2025 - 01:14 PM

The 12.5mm KUO Hi-FW 84° has serious edge of field brightening.  It's sharp across the entire field, but due to that issue, I sold it.  Everybody can see it if you look for it.

The Masuyama 10mm will only be sharp in the center 50% of the field in your scope.

I'm also not a fan of ultrawide fields in binoculars since you can't look at the edges of the field.  I advise sticking to 68-72° max.

I would look elsewhere for eyepieces for your binoscope.

Thank's Starman1, whilst we are on the subject i may as well be steered in the right direction! In your experience what would be looking at in the f/5.6 area on a BT that accepts 1.25 EP? Pentax XW? Nikon NAV SW? Tele vue? Baader morpheus?



#15 Starman1

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Posted 16 March 2025 - 01:49 PM

Thanks, Starman1, whilst we are on the subject I may as well be steered in the right direction! In your experience what would be looking at in the f/5.6 area on a BT that accepts 1.25 EP? Pentax XW? Nikon NAV SW? Tele vue? Baader morpheus?

That depends on your IPD, but I would say 

Pentax XW 

Tele Vue Delite

Tele Vue Radians (used)

Any 32mm Plössl (Tele Vue, Baader, et.al.), if you need that long a focal length.

Nikon NAV-SW

Tele Vue Panoptic in 19mm, 24mm (fond memories here of seeing the Horsehead in the '80s for the first time in 150mm f/5 binoculars, with H-ß filters, of course)

KUO UFF (any of ~10 brands) in 18mm, 24mm

 

There are others, but that's a short list to start with.  All work fine at f/5.


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#16 eyeoftexas

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Posted 16 March 2025 - 04:10 PM

They are the same thing.

 

True, except some vendors have tweaks or other stats that they request for their versions.  Just one example, look at Stellarvue Optimus vs. Astro-Tech XWA.  Same eyepiece but in different clothes.



#17 K-night

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Posted 16 March 2025 - 05:50 PM

I have a Sky Rover APO70 and I use it primary for birding. As I understand it your BT70 XL isn't made by KUO, but with my KUO SR APO70, Baader Morpheus and Nikon NAV-SW eyepieces would not insert past the compression rings in the eyepiece holders. I think it would be a good idea to ask Oberwerk if there are known eyepiece incompatibilities.

 

As for the SR HFW. At first I was very annoyed by a brown ring around the edge of view in daylight, overtime I became less bothered by it. It's outstanding sharpness and lack of distortion was well worth the tradeoff. At night I didn't see that pesky brown ring. Although being pretty small, the bands of Jupiter were visible most nights. The exit pupil was easy to find & hold, and I appreciated the tapered body since I have a narrow IPD.

 

...Worth noting that APM are stocking the genuine Noblex for 1300 euro's a pop

The Noblex is indeed notable. It is a beautiful match for my APO70 and I'm sure it would be great in your BT70 too.


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#18 Mike B

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Posted 17 March 2025 - 12:08 AM

Re: the KUO Hi-FW 84°- these are quite hefty! So this, too, might be an issue to throw into your eval?

 

Wishing you the best on your bino project! waytogo.gif




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