12 replies to this topic

[Miggystardust]

I'm prepping to do my 2nd Messier Marathon attempt in a few weeks and in my constant quest to overthink everything, I've been poring over various published MM sequences. I'm not finding discussion comparing the sequences, so I wanted to present a summary here and invite any insights or thoughts.

While the published sequences are available, one thing that tends to be lacking is the context of why the author chose this particular sequence.  I'd love any input on why one might work better than another. For instance, there's a "more daring" sequence that tries to knock out some super easy ones in the early evening before going for "the Setters." Some others might be better for certain latitudes. (I'm at 36N latitude.) 

The two sequences from books are the Machholz sequence (from The Observing Guide to the Messier Marathon) and the Pennington sequence (from The Year Round Messier Marathon.)

 

Others are from other places online. In particular, the well known SEDS site lists some sequences here. And Larry McNish's Messier Marathon Planner on the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada website lets you input date/location info, and then choose from seven different sequences.

 

First-- here are some CN threads:

• Tips for doing a Messier Marathon - general tips but doesn't really discuss sequences.
• Messier Objects Marathon Tracker - in which CN user Jay_Aky provides a spreadsheet that can be used for Marathoning.
• The thread simply called Messier Marathon discusses apps that have sequences; and CN user gfamily provides a spreadsheet that contains the Machholz sequence. I have taken this spreadsheet and added some of the other sequences to it that you can sort by-- feel free to make a copy here. (With a nod and thanks to gfamily).

 

So with that-- here's a summary of the sequences I can find. Most of them have very similar starting and ending sequences, and some similar subsets, but there are definitely differences.

1. Machholz sequence (multiple sources including SEDS page and McNish planner). The original.
2. Pennington sequence (from McNish planner). Seems to generally be similar to Machholz, but pushes some of the winter objects later.
3. Phil Harrington sequence, Astronomy magazine 1994, then presumably 2002 (from SEDS page and McNish planner). Deviates from Machholz/Pennington in that it pushes some of the bright winter ones earlier in the sequence before the "setters". It also has somewhat of a different sequence for the spring objects, pushes Draco and Coma Berenices objects much later, and pushes Summer Triangle objects much later. (I'd love to hear theory on why.)
4. Ed Ting sequence, S&T March 2000 (from McNish planner). Follows Machholz very closely with the exception of pushing Hydra objects earier.
5. Tomm Lorenzin sequence, 1997 (from McNish planner). Puts southern winter objects ahead of more northern ones; pushes circumpolar objects later; pushes Coma/Virgo/spring objects earlier.
6. Astronomy magazine, March 2006 (from McNish planner). Appears to be identical to the Machholz sequence.
7. Larry McNish for latitude 51N (from McNish planner). I haven't looked at this sequence but it seems pretty obvious it's optimized for northern latitudes.
8. Tom Cameron for Calgary RASC (from McNish planner). I haven't looked at this sequence either, but I'm guessing it too is optimized for northern latitudes.
9. Dawn Jenkins sequence (referenced on SEDS page and taken from her own page, http://www.astras-stargate.com/messlist.htm). Very specifically moves some (circumpolar) Cassiopeia objects to very late in the list, and reshuffles some of the winter objects. The rest of the list is similar to Machholz.
10. Bill Farris sequence, 2002 (from http://www.messier.seds.org/xtra/marathon/mm_bfe.txt) This is an interesting one, in that he says it is "unconventional and risky" because he specifically pushes some bright winter objects to the very front of the sequence, before the setters. His sequence also is divided into groups, which may help conceptualize it.
11. Stephen Saber sequence (from https://saberdoesthestars.wordpress.com/tag/stargazing/) This one is also interesting in that his goal here is to be able to do it all from memory. To that end, his sequence is fairly standard but he divides them into 10 groups with mnemonic names. This type of "divide and conquer" may be helpful even for people not trying to do it from memory.
12. Marathon sequence for latitude 18.5 (from http://www.messier.seds.org/xtra/marathon/marat-in.txt). I haven't looked at this sequence, but it specifically states that it's optimized for a more southerly latitude.

 

And again, I would really love any thoughts as to why someone might prefer one over the other! Going through these, comparing them, and compiling this list gave me some insight, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

[TOMDEY]

Depends on your latitude and observing site usable horizon.  36N should be very forgiving --- any suggested sequence pretty easy, provided you have decent horizon. Directional light pollution of course can be a consideration. The other big (most?) challenging part is how basic you choose to go. Entirely "by hand" modest telescope of bino and without setting circles or any other powered or computer assist would be the ~cleanest triumph~. Rather ironically --- that goes quickly in the hands of a seasoned experienced observer.       Tom

[Bill Weir]

If you have a decent horizon then really all you have to think about is the early setters. It’s M74 diving into the evening twilight that’s had from my latitude. From then on it’s an easy pace with lots of sitting around waiting for things to rise. I only sort of did a MM once and bailed at midnight because I needed to be up at 0530hrs to go to work. I used some list, don’t ask me which and only to tell me what to go for next. Then I found it by memory. That was my challenge. 

 

Just pick one and try it. If it doesn’t work out then next year try another. In a dozen years you’ll find out which is the best. 

 

Bill

[Rick-T137]

I did a Messier Marathon back in the early 2000's with a 10" Dob, and I did it based on Don Machholz's book The Messier Marathon Observer's Guide. Mind you, I am pretty sure I actually got the list from SEDS.

 

I did it from about 45° N in southern Ontario, Canada. For sure the toughest part is the dusk and dawn objects - and the Virgo Cluster.

 

I had a Telrad on my Dob, and I have the two-volume finder charts of "The Messier Objects" by Brent Watson and published by Sky Spot:

 

https://www.sky-spot...messier-objects

 

Honestly, I didn't really consider any alternate sequences. I did some practice runs on the weekends leading up to it, and I was well prepared the night of the event - snacks and coffee, lots of clothing choices, a sleeping bag, emptied out the back of my van (so I had a place to nap), took a nap between 1AM and 3AM, set up early, etc.

 

Good luck!

 

Rick

[JayinUT]

I did mine in 2008 and 2009 with a 10 inch dob, finderscope and Telrad. I used Machholz sequence and got it done both years. I had the back of my Pathfinder set up to take a nap which I did for an hour. I also had food, healthy food some bars and fruit and nuts. Also had water, important to keep yourself hydrated.

 

After doing two I told myself I was done with Messier Marathon. I would rather spend the time hunting down objects and observing them than doing a checklist. So others who observe with me can go for it but I do my own thing that night until I retire in the back of my Ascent.

 

This led me to sketching what I was observing which slowed down my observation and taught me to look for and find details I wouldn’t have if I was rushing. I can do 20-40 objects in an observing session but I usually do 15-20 and sketch 10 or so now. 

[JimK]

Several years ago I noticed a CN post (by Sarkikos) showing a Messier listing that made groups of objects to facilitate a marathon from memory (he called it M-Cubed).  With his permission I made minor edits (to facilitate its use as a checklist during a "traditional" Messier Marathon - not one from memory) and repost it for others.  The group approach is by "related" constellations, keeping another part of the brain interested and helping to minimize telescope slewing.

 

I used this listing in 2021, viewing all but globular cluster M30 (because of distant morning clouds).  For me it works, although no 2025 marathon for me because of brighter skies (one effect of the solar sunspot maximum).

 

There are many ways to locate Messier objects, but for a marathon I prefer the charts posted on the RASC / Royal Astronomical Society of Canada website (link => https://www.rasc.ca/messier-objects ).  Beforehand I write the chart number(s) on each group heading of the listing.

 

On the listing I added areas for notes: date, gear details, weather conditions, etc.  Next to each object is a line for a checkmark, or as I use it, for the observation time.
- - - - - - - - - -
PS - Observing skills do get "rusty", so I prepare by performing a mini-marathon of 12 objects ("Messier 5K" as described in by Glenn Chaple in Astronomy magazine, March 2007, pg 14).

 

The mini-marathon objects are Pleiades (M45), then open clusters M35, M37, M36, and M38, followed by the Orion Nebula (M42), and M43 to its NNE, then open clusters M41, M47, and the Beehive (M44), then lastly galaxies M81 and M82 (both in the same field of view at low power).

 

All "5k" objects are high in the February/March early evening sky, and a backyard without too much light pollution is fine.

 

It generally takes me about an hour with a small (90mm) telescope in my backyard to setup, find the objects, and bring the gear back inside.

- - - - - - - - - -

Wishing everyone clear, dark skies!

Attached Files

•  Messier Marathon Groups.pdf   102.04KB   24 downloads

[Sarkikos]

Several years ago I noticed a CN post (by Sarkikos) showing a Messier listing that made groups of objects to facilitate a marathon from memory (he called it M-Cubed).  With his permission I made minor edits (to facilitate its use as a checklist during a "traditional" Messier Marathon - not one from memory) and repost it for others.  The group approach is by "related" constellations, keeping another part of the brain interested and helping to minimize telescope slewing.

 

I used this listing in 2021, viewing all but globular cluster M30 (because of distant morning clouds).  For me it works, although no 2025 marathon for me because of brighter skies (one effect of the solar sunspot maximum).

 

There are many ways to locate Messier objects, but for a marathon I prefer the charts posted on the RASC / Royal Astronomical Society of Canada website (link => https://www.rasc.ca/messier-objects ).  Beforehand I write the chart number(s) on each group heading of the listing.

 

On the listing I added areas for notes: date, gear details, weather conditions, etc.  Next to each object is a line for a checkmark, or as I use it, for the observation time.
- - - - - - - - - -
PS - Observing skills do get "rusty", so I prepare by performing a mini-marathon of 12 objects ("Messier 5K" as described in by Glenn Chaple in Astronomy magazine, March 2007, pg 14).

 

The mini-marathon objects are Pleiades (M45), then open clusters M35, M37, M36, and M38, followed by the Orion Nebula (M42), and M43 to its NNE, then open clusters M41, M47, and the Beehive (M44), then lastly galaxies M81 and M82 (both in the same field of view at low power).

 

All "5k" objects are high in the February/March early evening sky, and a backyard without too much light pollution is fine.

 

It generally takes me about an hour with a small (90mm) telescope in my backyard to setup, find the objects, and bring the gear back inside.

- - - - - - - - - -

Wishing everyone clear, dark skies!

Hi Jim,

 

Keep in mind that my take on the Memory Messier Marathon was inspired by the work already done by Stephen Saber.  His sequence is # 11 in the Opening Post for this thread.

 

I added mnemonics for each grouping.  I think I also changed the groupings and sequence a little.  It's been a while since I've done an M³ or even an M². 

 

Here is a link to Stephen Saber's original M³ sequence:  https://saberdoesthe....wordpress.com/

 

Thanks, Stephen! 

 

Mike

[SaberScorpX]

Thanks Mike.

Any M-Cubed variations used are definitely game-changers, allowing maximum observing time by skipping lights and lists while preserving maximum dark adaptation.

Peace, Stephen

[WillR]

I have to agree with your first sentence. 

[Miggystardust]

Thank you for all the input! @JimK, I'm going to add yours to the list in the original post. [Edited to add: original post is now read-only... your list is GREAT and provides very detailed finding info.)

Compiling this list has given me a lot deeper of an understanding of how to approach it. My first Marathon attempt a few years ago resulted in bagging 70 objects over two evenings with about 10-15 repeats from the first to second night. I went with the SEDS checklist sequence. I was unable to bag the first few due to light pollution to the west, so I gave up on the "all 110" pretty quickly, but took time to enjoy others, write down which eyepiece showed them best, etc. I got confounded on the Heartbreak Hill that is Virgo and skipped past those. This time, I will be in a better location (with Las Vegas Astronomical Society at one of our spots) and I have a plan for the tricky areas. 

 

My equipment I'll use: 10" dob; Telrad; the good old Sky-Spot charts; and (this card deck is brand new to the market) the Cosmic Shards Messier Deck. The Cosmic Shards cards just came out (via Kickstarter campaign) and they include an illustration of what the objects look like in an eyepiece; Telrad maps; and unlike the Sky-Spot charts, they can be grouped and rearranged. (I've got them rubber banded in groups so they don't fly away.) (I posted a review of the Cosmic Shards deck here.)

 

@SaberScorpX: your list, sequence, and how you've divided it up is GREAT and it's going to be the basis for my 2025 Marathon. I *love* the groupings. Even just for the mental approach of "divide and conquer", those groupings will really help me. Thank you!

For the Virgo Cluster, I've adjusted my own sequence to tackle it in potentially three different ways:

1. The first way I'll try is to use the Tony Cecce "spokes of a wheel" sequence radiating from M84/M86, described here on the SEDS site.
2. The second way is using an east-to-west sequence that would work a little better for an equatorial mount than my dob. (I've attached it as an image.) Note: this image is a screengrab from a Messier Marathon presentation on the Howard Astronomical League website that I can't find any more. If anyone has a source for this map, or info about who proposed this sequence, please let me know so that I can give proper credit!
3. The Pennington book has some charts specifically discussing how to tackle the Virgo Cluster.

Between those three, I'm actually looking forward to conquering that part which confounded me last time. 

I'd still love any input/discussion about why certain objects might be better shuffled around. I've been obsessing over this. 

Edited by Miggystardust, 18 March 2025 - 11:53 AM.

[JimK]

For the Coma Berenices/Virgo galaxies, I recommend downloading the RASC charts I mentioned earlier ("Terry Adrian's Messier Chart/Log system", near the bottom of  https://www.rasc.ca/messier-objects ), and printing two charts of this download: insert #2 and Map 05, which are pages 6 and 7 of T.Adrian's PDF file.  These two sheets can help show "the big picture" of Messier Coma Berenices/Virgo galaxies.

 

Then for visual reference asterisms, pencil-in lines to make the "martini glass" outline" and "perfume bottle/oil can" outline that are referenced in the Messier Groups.PDF file (pages 2 and 3).

 

With these two sheets included in your marathon gear (perhaps in a clear plastic sheet protector if there may be dew), should you get a little bewildered in this area, you have paper charts for a finder, or turn them upside down for your reflector's view.  You may not need them, but they might be a useful tool.

[George N]

As I mentioned in another post -- the Messier Marathon List "problem" - tailored for a specific geographic location and with "shortest path" worked out -- sounds like something ideal for an AI ChatBot to work out - Google Gemini Research is now free to anyone with a Google account. Would be fun to give it a try - and then compare its results with the best common lists 'out there'.

 

My biggest issue doing the MM (beyond the getting the dusk & dawn low objects) is the crazy north/south swings in Dec that some of those lists require. There has to be a better way!

[Miggystardust]

Someone in our local club (Las Vegas Astronomical Society) found another Marathon sequence, so I'm adding it here. This thread has become somewhat of the de facto list of published Messier Marathon sequences. Fun!

More to add to the initial list from the first post:

 

 

13. JimK has a sequence and downloadable checklist that groups the objects in Post #6 in this thread. His sequence groups by related constellations and is adapted from Stephen Saber's M-Cubed sequence.

 

14. Ken Graun's sequence from his website, kenpress.com. (Printable checklist is available via a button at that URL, or use this direct link.) I've added this sequence to the giant spreadsheet that I linked to in the original post. This sequence has some very noticeable departures from other published sequences. Particularly among the spring middle section. (Virgo etc.) It also has a fair number of "intra-group shufflings"... what I mean by that is if you take a group of 15-20 of his objects and compare to other sequences' (plural) grouping at a similar time of night, they would contain roughly the same list of objects, but his sequence for those 15-20 deviates from what the others tend to have.

 

His discussion on the page says that he planned it with the aid of planetarium software, and assigned time windows to his groups. (The time windows are indicated on his checklist.) His checklist packs a lot of Virgo Cluster objects into a short window, and he specifically states that this is because he recommends waiting until it's on the meridian so alt-az up/down/left/right movements will correspond to North/South/East/West directions on charts.