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Asteroseismology with the Seestar S50?

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#51 robin_astro

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Posted 28 March 2025 - 01:57 PM

 I would be very interested to understand what it takes to perform such measurements (e.g. equipment, techniques, software.

I ran through this in the presentation 19:35 - 23:05 but  I would be happy to provide more details.

 

The spectrograph is a LHIRES III, available commercially

https://www.shelyak....es-iii/?lang=en

though mine is one of the original batch of not-for-profit kits which I built in 2006

and the software I use for data reduction and cross correlation is Christian Buil's ISIS

https://buil.astrosu...s-software.html

 

Cheers

Robin


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#52 pvdv

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Posted 28 March 2025 - 01:57 PM

You don't need good time resolution at the peak to establish the pulsation period and epoch. What you need is as  much accurately time stamped data as possible  scattered over a long time span  (The longer the time span, the more accurate the period.) 

And how would poor timing resolution in the peak be fundamentally different from inaccurately time stamped data?

 

Edit: in either case, yes, you need a longer data collection time span, which is exactly what I said at the beginning of this thread.


Edited by pvdv, 28 March 2025 - 01:59 PM.


#53 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 28 March 2025 - 02:15 PM

I ran through this in the presentation 19:35 - 23:05 but  I would be happy to provide more details.

 

The spectrograph is a LHIRES III, available commercially

https://www.shelyak....es-iii/?lang=en

though mine is one of the original batch of not-for-profit kits which I built in 2006

and the software I use for data reduction and cross correlation is Christian Buil's ISIS

https://buil.astrosu...s-software.html

 

Cheers

Robin

How many order of magnitude would you say is spectroscopy more demanding than photometry (which I consider straightforward)? How much work is required for completing an analysis like the one you did for RR Lyrae?



#54 robin_astro

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Posted 28 March 2025 - 02:16 PM

And how would poor timing resolution in the peak be fundamentally different from inaccurately time stamped data?

 

 

As long as the mid time of the exposure is known accurately, you can get away with longer exposures (up to a point) and Peranso  will still identify the period as it uses all the data in the repeating light curve, not just (or even) data at the peak. You do need short exposures though if you want to see fast moving changes within the light curve.

 

Cheers

Robin 


Edited by robin_astro, 28 March 2025 - 02:17 PM.


#55 robin_astro

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Posted 28 March 2025 - 02:56 PM

As long as the mid time of the exposure is known accurately, you can get away with longer exposures (up to a point)

As a simple example, say you measure the time of maximum to +- 0.5 hours uncertainty and then the following maximum 10 hours +- 0.5 hours later, the period is

10 hours +- sqrt(2)*0.5 =~ 0.7 hr or 7%

 

but if you wait 1000 hours (100 periods) after the first measurement and measure the maximum again to +-0.5 hours your precision in the calculated period is now improved to 0.7/100 = 0.07%



#56 robin_astro

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Posted 28 March 2025 - 03:43 PM

How many order of magnitude would you say is spectroscopy more demanding than photometry (which I consider straightforward)? How much work is required for completing an analysis like the one you did for RR Lyrae?

It is mainly the learning curve needed for spectroscopy. Once you know what you are doing it is relatively straightforward but there is a lot to learn about running a spectrographic setup and doing the data reduction. Because of the exposure lengths for each target which are typically tens of minutes to a couple of hours, spectroscopy throughput is much lower than for photometry too and to do it seriously a separate dedicated permanent setup is very desirable. Achieving a high level of automation of the observing session is also much more difficult so generally much more hands on. (There are aspects of photometry though which are also challenging though of course, such as the transformation of measurements to a standard system to achieve high absolute accuracy and achieving the high precision needed for exoplanet transit work for example)

 

As a good overview of what is involved in spectroscopy, David Boyd's presentation on the BAA website gives an idea of the steps involved producing research quality spectra.

https://britastro.or...amateur-spectra

and there are some presentations I gave at a BAA workshop which cover using my various spectrographs at different resolutions here

https://britastro.or...he-nlo-oct-2015

 

There are more dimensions to spectroscopy compared with photometry, with particular aspects coming into play depending on what is important for the particular measurement and understanding which these are is a key part of it. For example here I was only interested in one thing, the precision and long term stability of the wavelength measurement so I optimised the observing technique to that end. (Understanding what the spectrum of the particular targets was like and how it behaved during the pulsations, choosing the appropriate resolution and the part of the spectrum to be measured, making sure everything was brought to temperature and taking calibration lamp spectra more often than usual, determining the exposure that would give me a good enough SNR to be able to measure to the precision I needed, taking care to correct both the wavelength and time to heliocentric coordinates, researching the value of the projection factor (A real can of worms beyond what I mention in the presentation!) etc. Other aspects such as the accuracy of the flux calibration, which  is challenging to do accurately particularly at low resolution, was unimportant in this case. 

 

Cheers

Robin



#57 pvdv

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Posted 28 March 2025 - 04:05 PM

Yes, on the period recovery, no dispute on that point. 

All other things being equal a small telescope such as the seestar will have a larger uncertainty and therefore will require a longer delay compared to a larger telescope to reach the same accuracy. Which is what I said at the start...

And again, if the small telescope needs a 90 sec exposure we have a +/-45 sec uncertainty on the exact timing of the peak which would be equivalent to a bigger telescope that instantly gets the same quality exposure with a +/-45s uncertainty in its timing.

I think we can both agree that, outside of potential aliasing/jitter/etc issues, the bigger telescope with a precise time base will have the advantage.


 



#58 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 07:52 AM

After collecting another set of cycles yesterday, I decided to run the data through Peranso and obtain a Lomb-Scargle periodogram. As expected the analysis only identifies one mode instead of two. Is there anything else I could try other than just recording more and more cycles in the hope of resolving the two modes?

 

AE Uma - Lomb Scargle.jpg



#59 robin_astro

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 08:52 AM

Analysing individual short runs is not the way to go. As you see, you get a very "blurry" spectrum. You need data covering a long time period relative to the periods. You don't need to monitor continuously. Combine data  from runs spaced over a long time period. This will sharpen up the main period in the spectrum. Then "clean"  the data of that period and look at what is left. See the paper I mentioned previously on AS Cas an example 

https://ui.adsabs.ha.....125B/abstract

 

Cheers

Robin



#60 robin_astro

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 08:55 AM

 Combine data  from runs spaced over a long time period. 

You need consistent calibration of your photometry from run to run so the magnitudes are comparable and for short period variables where up to +-8 mins might be significant, correct to heliocentric time. 



#61 robin_astro

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 09:16 AM

Analysing individual short runs is not the way to go. As you see, you get a very "blurry" spectrum. You need data covering a long time period relative to the periods. You don't need to monitor continuously. Combine data  from runs spaced over a long time period. This will sharpen up the main period in the spectrum. Then "clean"  the data of that period and look at what is left. See the paper I mentioned previously on AS Cas an example 

https://ui.adsabs.ha.....125B/abstract

 

Cheers

Robin

Here is the V mag data Enrique Boeneker used for this analysis. There are no continuous runs, just single observations  on clear nights over a 3 year period, scheduled on the AAVSO BSM robotic telescopes.

 

AS Cas_Vmag.png

 

Cheers

Robin



#62 robin_astro

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 09:31 AM

Try combining your runs to date  including pvdv's (assuming the magnitude calibrations are consistent ) and analysing them in peranso as a set 

 

Cheers

Robin


Edited by robin_astro, 29 March 2025 - 09:31 AM.


#63 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 10:02 AM

Somewhat counterintuitive for the uninitiated but I slowly start to grasp the logic behind this: it is more efficient to design a long term program that during each session loops through a number of different multimode stars at arbitrary points of their cycle and steadily gather the necessary data for their periodograms instead of continuously monitoring a single star for several complete periods.

 

Edit: my analysis from Peranso included the two runs I did so far (on the 20th and 28th of March) covering 4 complete cycles.


Edited by terrain_inconnu, 29 March 2025 - 10:05 AM.


#64 robin_astro

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 10:21 AM

It is not just efficiency. It is a bit more fundamental than that even. You need measurements over a long time to resolve the period(s). Measuring a few cycles close in time will not do this.   


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#65 pvdv

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 06:37 PM

FWIW, here's what I get in Tycho on my very small data set.

Not that meaningful: the first set is from my very light polluted home (Bortle 7-8) on the TMB 115/805 with an IDAS LPS2 filter and a color camera and the other was from my country house (Bortle 4) on the Vixen R200SS with a CBB filter. Time base was possibly a bit different, one of the Mini PCs uses Dimension 4 time syncing software, the other just Windows Time (but it doesn't matter much at this point), one is vaguely calibrated with a standard field, the other was not and, in total I have 3 "high highs" and 2 "low highs" and 4 "lows" separated by a few nights. Conditions weren't optimal as I was in both cases beginning too early and I had a few passing clouds. Finally, I did not optimize my exposures in terms of dynamic range as I would for an exo-planet transit: I just made sure I did not over-expose and had matching darks ready.

Everything Robin said about your periodogram can be said about mine

aeumaperiodogram

 

I think that the first thing you need to confirm is if the Seestar can reliably distinguish between "High Highs" and "Low Highs" when they occur.

It seems I will have a bit of clear sky next week: we could try to synchronise one run of a few hours and I could give you my raw data to compare with the Seestar's data.



#66 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 30 March 2025 - 03:45 AM

I think that the first thing you need to confirm is if the Seestar can reliably distinguish between "High Highs" and "Low Highs" when they occur.

I forgot to mention this, but contrary to my comment the other day, the amplitude modulation is being detected by the Seestar and is evident in the data, especially if one stacks frames in groups of N (e.g. 3x10s):

 

AE Uma Light Curve.jpg


Edited by terrain_inconnu, 30 March 2025 - 03:46 AM.

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#67 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 30 March 2025 - 03:57 AM

It seems I will have a bit of clear sky next week: we could try to synchronise one run of a few hours and I could give you my raw data to compare with the Seestar's data.

That would be a great way to benchmark the Seestar. Current forecast here is cloudy at least till Wednesday. We could try to coordinate a run after the sky clears (in both locations).



#68 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 30 March 2025 - 01:23 PM

With respect to my question why maximum brightness does not happen at minimum radius and how it relates to expansion velocity and the underlying physics, here is a snippet from the introduction to the paper The Cepheid Phase Lag Revisited by Szabó et al. from 2007:

 

The relative phase between the luminosity and the velocity curves in classical pulsating variables was a puzzle in the early days of variable-star modeling. Because, overall, the pulsations are only weakly nonadiabatic, it was expected that the maximum brightness should occur at maximum compression, i.e., minimum radius, whereas in reality it is observed to occur close to maximum velocity. (To avoid confusion, we note that in this paper we use astrocentric velocities, u = dR/dt.) The luminosity thus has a ∼90° phase lag compared to the one expected adiabatically.

 

 As it became possible to make accurate linear and nonlinear calculations of the whole envelope, including in particular the outer neutral hydrogen region, agreement between modeling and observation was achieved. However, it was Castor (1968) who first provided a qualitative physical understanding of this phenomenon. He pointed out that during the compression phase, for example, the hydrogen partial ionization front moves outward with respect to the fluid, and energy is removed from the heat flow to ionize matter. Because of this temporary storage of energy—as in the charging of a capacitor—the H acts like a low-pass filter, causing a phase lag of close to 90°. However, the exact value of the phase lag depends sensitively on details of the stellar model and can only be obtained by detailed simulations. An understanding of the phase lag involves physics both in the linear and the nonlinear regimes. This characteristic makes it an ideal benchmark to test existing hydrocodes against observational constraints.


Edited by terrain_inconnu, 30 March 2025 - 01:55 PM.


#69 pvdv

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Posted 30 March 2025 - 02:47 PM

I've just sent you my exported CSV data (with all the caveats stated above) in a PM - I have been playing a bit with it
 

aeumaperiodogram self-made

while the period is in the ballpark, astropy is clearly doing things differently from Tycho. Tycho seems to show the 2x base frequency superposed signal, but not clear at all here.



#70 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 31 March 2025 - 04:24 AM

I combined the dataset pvdv sent me with the data from my Seestar into a single chart. The light curves were folded using the period and epoch as provided by VSX without any adjustments or shifts given that the main purpose was to benchmark the Seestar vs other photometric setups. A lot can be said about differences in aperture, sensors, filters, calibration, exposure times and so on, but overall the easy to deploy Seestar performs better than I had expected.

 

AE Uma Light Curve Comps.png


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#71 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 31 March 2025 - 11:58 AM

I tried to analyse the combined dataset (which covers just 4 nights during March 2025) in Peranso and see if I could somehow detect the two modes of AE Uma, which according to this paper (brought to my attention by pvdv) are to be found around the frequencies 11.625 and 15.031 c/d (see Table 1, page 4). Surprisingly Peranso identified via the Generalized Lomb-Scargle method an almost identical set of frequencies for the main and first overtone modes. Coincidence?

 

AE Uma Peranso.png


Edited by terrain_inconnu, 31 March 2025 - 12:31 PM.

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#72 pvdv

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Posted 31 March 2025 - 03:22 PM

Yes, indeed - it is the second peak (down) in the Tycho and the second power peak (up) in my astropy trial. 
That being said, I tend to be excessively cautious and if it is indeed meaningful and representative, what about the first peak? (rethorical question for now) 
And, there's a plethora of peaks to choose from...
 



#73 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 11:29 AM

For me, the unexpected and thus interesting part was the (even if somewhat questionable) identification of the first overtone in this rather limited dataset. I now also better understand the necessity of extending observations over a longer time frame to improve detection.

 

To conclude this exploration: It has been two weeks since I started this thread on asteroseismology, and it has exposed me to many new ideas and insights on how to measure and analyse the underlying phenomena (special thanks to pvdv and robin_astro). Moreover, it has reinforced the impression I formed during my first steps into photometry a few months ago—namely, that variable stars are among the most worthwhile targets to pursue for those seeking to move beyond the aesthetic pleasure of astronomical observing. Whether an eclipsing binary or a pulsating Delta Scuti star, witnessing their rich, dynamic nature unfold within hours starkly contrasts with the universe’s otherwise seemingly static appearance on human time scales.


Edited by terrain_inconnu, 02 April 2025 - 04:21 AM.

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#74 pvdv

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Posted 02 April 2025 - 10:14 AM

If you want to test the limits of the seestar further, there's a rapidly pulsating (1.295 hours period) High Amplitute Delta Scuti type variable very close to AE Uma

GSC


90 seconds exposure with the R200SS and a clear filter. If you are shooting 10 seconds exposures, don't hesitate to bin a lot.

 



#75 terrain_inconnu

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Posted 03 April 2025 - 02:51 AM

If you want to test the limits of the seestar further, there's a rapidly pulsating (1.295 hours period) High Amplitute Delta Scuti type variable very close to AE Uma.

90 seconds exposure with the R200SS and a clear filter. If you are shooting 10 seconds exposures, don't hesitate to bin a lot.

Unfortunately this specific star is not included in the frames I took of AE Uma (missed by a small margin). I will give it a try once the weather clears, sounds like a nice short project. Based on tests I did in the past, the Seestar can handle magnitudes in that range (13-14 mag) if one stacks in groups of N (e.g. 6x10s or 9x10s).




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