54 replies to this topic

[vrodriguez2324]

Greetings CNers,

 

I am looking for a small refractor that will be complementary to my AT102ED. 

 

Goals

1. Full Solar disc with the Daystar Quark Chromosphere. The Quark, with it's built in 4.3x Barlow and 21mm clear aperture filter, requires a focal length of 450mm or less to see the Sun in its entirety within the field of view. 
2. Nighttime ultra low power Xtreme wide field. I want to see the most amount of sky balanced against compromises with respect to image presentation. I'd like to  consider factors such as TFOV, correction for aberrations, image brightness, etc.
3. Terrestrial. Occasionally I will point my telescope to land targets. Mostly treetops and mountaintops. Looking at pine needles swaying in the wind can be mesmerizing. Watching birds perched in trees or buildings, tracking planes, and even looking at clouds is enjoyable. I'll admit that I do a lot more Solar Ha and nighttime viewing than terrestrial. 
4. Joy. Small refractors are cool. I see the appeal towards these small, capable, and joy bringing instruments. (More on this below)

Background

• I got an AT102ED about a year and half ago and it instantly sidelined my achromats. Which at the time were an Orion 90mm f/10.1 and the Orion ST120. 
• It easily beat out my 90mm f/10 achromat in every category. The 90mm was no slouch either. I gave it to my niece just recently along with a mount and a set of eyepieces. 
• I got a Daystar Quark this November during the Black Friday Sale. I knew about the Quark's variability and possible shortcomings but I still bought a ticket to the "lottery" as they say in the Solar Observing Forums. Maybe I am not as critical, maybe it's because I am visual only, or maybe I got a decent sample of the Quark but this thing is AMAZING in the 102ED. After using the tuning knob and getting to what I feel is as "on-band" as possible (Full CCW) the view explodes in detail both on the surface and in the prominences. In fact what I see at the eyepiece looks very similar, possibly even better, than what I see on GONG https://gong2.nso.ed...&productIndex=3

Motivation

• The Quark + 102ED is a great combination. The views are beyond impressive. But you get to view only 1/4 to 1/3 of the sun. I want to see the whole thing!
• So started my quest for something smaller and shorter. A quick search in the classifieds led my to a very nice 60mm f/7 achromat that had been listed for over a month. For $60 dollars, how did it last so long in the Classifieds? Well it had no pictures and the seller only accepted personal checks or money orders. 
• I reached out to Gary (oldtimer) and his daughter emailed me pictures. I agreed to buy it and he had it in the mail before I even sent the check. 
• I dropped the Quark in right away and again I'm blown away. It was exactly what I was looking for. Full solar disc with at least 1 minute of drift time (I need tracking ). 
• This thing is very well built for what it is. Made in Japan with an elegant navy blue finish and all metal. It is so small compared to 102ED. The quality build and compactness had me thinking: SMALL REFRACTORS ARE COOL! 
• Now I am thinking: Can I get something similar of better mechanical build and possibly better optics, that can serve double or even triple duty?

 

Considerations

• I want to go really really wide: The ST120 can do 4 full degrees with my 31NT5. The view with a TSFLAT2 is special. But the view with the AT102ED with my ES 40/68 still puts up a huge 3.65 degrees! And it does so with a smaller exit pupil (5.7mm vs 6.2mm) and no TSFLAT2 required. I haven't reached for the 120 in a while. 
• I want to use it with the Daystar Quark and see the full solar disc: My small little blue scope has a focal length of 415mm. I'd like to stay as close to this as possible, maybe shorter. While the full Sun is supposed to be able to fit in a FL up to 450 I don't want to barely squeeze in the Sun. I would like some space around the Sun for context and drift time.
• F/Ratio: The Quark works best at f/30 (f/7 + built in 4.3x Barlow). My current two scopes are right at the sweet spot.
• Good mechanical build: My nicest refractor is the AT102ED. I appreciate the quality build. 
• Good Optics: The Quark limits the view to a single wavelength. It works perfect with simple achromats. I would like optics decent for low power widefield and occasional terrestrial viewing. 
• Budget: Up to $350 give or take (I usually buy used and can be patient)

Existing Equipment

• 2" Diagonals
• Minus Violet Filter, Lumicon UHC, Lumicon OIII
• EPs (40 ES/68, 31NT5, 22NT4, Full Set XWAs, Full Set Morpheus, APM Super Zoom, Plossls, and others)
• TSLFAT2
• GSO 2" inch dual speed Crayford (Currently on ST120)
• 86.4mm flange. I was going to put a two in focuser on my 90mm f/10 but I never did after getting the AT102ED.

What telescope can you recommend? 

 

-Victor

Edited by vrodriguez2324, 16 March 2025 - 07:33 AM.

[CHASLX200]

Maybe the AT80ED. Never used a Quark on a lark.

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[vrodriguez2324]

Some pics. 102mm f/7 and 60mm f/7

 

Is anyone familiar with this little blue scope?

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Edited by vrodriguez2324, 16 March 2025 - 07:46 AM.

[vrodriguez2324]

My Solar Ha kit. I bought the Baader Skysufer V as an RDF, it doubles as a sol searcher too. 

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Edited by vrodriguez2324, 16 March 2025 - 07:44 AM.

[vrodriguez2324]

Maybe the AT80ED. Never used a Quark on a lark.

Too long. I am trying to stay under 450mm. Closer to 400mm. 

[CHASLX200]

Some pics. 102mm f/7 and 60mm f/7

 

Is anyone familiar with this little blue scope?

Kinda looks like what Meade sold in 1986 as i had one used for a finder.

[therealdmt]

The Skywatcher 72ED is 420mm focal length. Just the telescope itself (with mounting rings, but no diagonal or finder included) is currently $349 new, so would be within budget (and especially so if bought used). Two-speed 2" Crayford focuser. Would give 6.5° tfov with your 68 degree 40mm eyepiece…

 

I don’t use it much for terrestrial, but from what little I’ve done, it works fine for that. Definitely smaller, lighter and wider enough that it is a clear complement to (rather than competition to) a 4" refractor. Airline carry-on portable in its included case, too. Meanwhile, with a 3 - 8mm zoom, it also works well for quickie planetary and lunar views.

 

Here’s mine and my 4" together

 

The whole 72ED rig as shown is 13 lbs. (6 kg). Or, with a lighter mount I have (M1V) and an RDF for a finder, it’s only 11.5 lbs. (5 kg). This makes it an easy one-hander out the door and, along with the less light gathering but wider field views, puts it in a different category than my 31 lbs. (14 kg) 100ED rig. Accordingly, it’s easy to decide which one to use for what purpose

[PKDfan]

Hi Victor !

I suggest you look for the discontinued Evolux F/6.45 62mm 400mm SD doublet. A flatfield astrograph.

I have been shocked at the view quality with mine and a 30XW does 5.2degree and 40XW at 6 3/4 degrees at not overly large pupils-4.73mm for the 30XW.

Its a flatfield scope and 30XW's 13.1X field is sharp nearly to the edge. I just bought 40XW and haven't tested it yet but i did use my new 17.3 Delos for a couple hours and loved its 23X view of white stars and intense contrasts on Jupe and used it with my 5X PM on the moon. Rilles galore.

I've tested a couple of them and both have very high quality optics in a robust R&P i'd even call overly robust.

Its 5pounds of GnG excellence.

The only downside (really) is an incomplete blackening in my early serial number iteration. Solar white light is....as a new solar observer, Shocking, is understating it. Sunspots have depth and incredible faculae sprinkled over its face.

One day i estimated over 80 sunspots.


Good Hunting !


CSS
Lance

[CHASLX200]

Maybe the SW 72ED?  Mine was a finder.

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[Wolfwatcher]

Ditto for the SW 72ed. Currently on sale and a fine all-around performer. Here in Yellowstone (on a smoky day), watching wildlife.

 

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[jason_milani]

The AT60ED is 360mm focal length. It may be an option.

[vrodriguez2324]

The Skywatcher 72ED is 420mm focal length. Just the telescope itself (with mounting rings, but no diagonal or finder included) is currently $349 new, so would be within budget (and especially so if bought used). Two-speed 2" Crayford focuser. Would give 6.5° tfov with your 68 degree 40mm eyepiece…

 

I don’t use it much for terrestrial, but from what little I’ve done, it works fine for that. Definitely smaller, lighter and wider enough that it is a clear complement to (rather than competition to) a 4" refractor. Airline carry-on portable in its included case, too. Meanwhile, with a 3 - 8mm zoom, it also works well for quickie planetary and lunar views.

 

Here’s mine and my 4" together

IMG_1953.jpeg

 

The whole 72ED rig as shown is 13 lbs. (6 kg). Or, with a lighter mount I have (M1V) and an RDF for a finder, it’s only 11.5 lbs. (5 kg). This makes it an easy one-hander out the door and, along with the less light gathering but wider field views, puts it in a different category than my 31 lbs. (14 kg) 100ED rig. Accordingly, it’s easy to decide which one to use for what purpose

The sale price is tempting. If one comes up used for less money I would buy it. 

 

More light grasp than my current 60mm f/7, 2 inch focuser, better glass. I'm interested. 

[vrodriguez2324]

Hi Victor !

I suggest you look for the discontinued Evolux F/6.45 62mm 400mm SD doublet. A flatfield astrograph.

I have been shocked at the view quality with mine and a 30XW does 5.2degree and 40XW at 6 3/4 degrees at not overly large pupils-4.73mm for the 30XW.

Its a flatfield scope and 30XW's 13.1X field is sharp nearly to the edge. I just bought 40XW and haven't tested it yet but i did use my new 17.3 Delos for a couple hours and loved its 23X view of white stars and intense contrasts on Jupe and used it with my 5X PM on the moon. Rilles galore.

I've tested a couple of them and both have very high quality optics in a robust R&P i'd even call overly robust.

Its 5pounds of GnG excellence.

The only downside (really) is an incomplete blackening in my early serial number iteration. Solar white light is....as a new solar observer, Shocking, is understating it. Sunspots have depth and incredible faculae sprinkled over its face.

One day i estimated over 80 sunspots.


Good Hunting !


CSS
Lance

 

 

The AT60ED is 360mm focal length. It may be an option.

I have the little 60mm achromat. It does well with the 24Pan. But I was looking for a little more light grasp. Thank you for the suggestions and sharing your experiences. 

[PKDfan]

I have the little 60mm achromat. It does well with the 24Pan. But I was looking for a little more light grasp. Thank you for the suggestions and sharing your experiences.

For 350.00 you'll be hard pressed to find something new of larger aperture and of good quality Victor.

So SW Evostar 72mm used might work for you with less true field but wider than what you've got now.

Good Luck !


CSS
Lance

[Wolfwatcher]

One caution for the SW72. When using a 2" diagonal/eyepiece combination, focus may be difficult to reach for longer eyepiece focal lengths without a supplemental extender ring.

 

Jett

[Spikey131]

Tele Vue 60 shows a full solar disk with the Quark.  
 

At 10” long, is very compact.   It performs very well as a spotting scope, but is also an excellent astronomical telescope.

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[sevenofnine]

The AT60ED has the specs. you're looking for. Good glass too! 

 

https://astronomics....l-53-ed-doublet.

[CHASLX200]

One caution for the SW72. When using a 2" diagonal/eyepiece combination, focus may be difficult to reach for longer eyepiece focal lengths without a supplemental extender ring.

 

Jett

I used a 2" Meade 32mm SMA smooth side in mine.

[Wolfwatcher]

I no longer have the SW72ed, having acquired a TV60. A wonderful small refractor as others have mentioned, but I thought it exceeded the OP's price range, so didn't mention it. I use it for both spotting and sky sweeping purposes, especially for airline travel, and couldn't be happier.

 

I simply no longer remember exactly which 2" diagonal and 2" 32mm eyepiece would not come to focus with the 72, but remember having to add a spacer to make it work (or in lieu of that, simply pulling up the eyepiece a half inch or so). A 2" 30mm worked perfectly in the same diagonal however. Most likely I used a TV diagonal. I've read others have had the same trouble focusing with 2" gear of 30mm+. I think it's a combination that actually has to be tried on that scope, because of the short travel of the focuser.

 

Jett

 

P.S. Seems I remember that SW made changes to the 72ed to address the focus issue. I've owned several of these scopes over the years and probably was using an earlier model when experiencing focusing difficulties.

Edited by Wolfwatcher, 16 March 2025 - 05:39 PM.

[therealdmt]

My bought-in-2021 SW 72ED comes to focus with my 2" APM 30UFF in my SkyWatcher 2" dielectric mirror diagonal. But a good point to mention, particularly for someone looking at buying a 72ED used*.

 

Nevertheless, a 32mm Plossl or 68 degree 24mm eyepiece gives 3.9 degrees true field of view in the SW 72ED and the Sun is only about 0.5 degrees in width, so one easily could fit 7 Sun’s full disks across a field of view with only 1.25" eyepieces.

 

 

*I have written down in my notes (I didn’t record an attribution, sorry) that there was a focusing issue for long 2" eyepieces with those SW 72EDs shipped prior to December 2019 due to an approximately 20mm shorter OTA. I’ve also read some members having issues reaching focus with a prism diagonal. FWIW, I have never experienced any issue reaching focus with my bought-in-2021 SW 72ED, after having used it for a number of years now with a variety of eyepieces and barlows and 1.25" filters (eyepieces as shown in my signature), mainly with a 1.25" dielectric mirror diagonal, and to much more limited extents with 1.25" prism diagonals of 90 degrees and 45 degrees, and just the other day for testing, with my SkyWatcher 2" dielectric mirror diagonal 

Edited by therealdmt, 16 March 2025 - 09:09 PM.

[Jon Isaacs]

Victor:

 

I suggest the AT-70ED. It's a handy little thing with the mechanical quality of your AT-102ED and the color correction should be better, same glass but smaller aperture. It's got plenty of backfocus. Mechanically it's a significant step up from the SW72ED.

 

If you want to try one out, we're both in San Diego, I'm retired.. 

 

70 mm F/6..

 

AT-70ED in front, WO Zenithstar 103 mm next.

 

 

Jon

Edited by Jon Isaacs, 16 March 2025 - 10:46 PM.

[Illinois]

I like my Orion 80 and 100 mm ED refractors.  Here’s picture of my Orion 100 ED f9 refractor and I like its 900 mm length! Nice from low power up to around 200 power.  Easy grab and go! 

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[vrodriguez2324]

Some reflections:

• A lot of votes for the SW72ED.  The current sale price for a new unit is just about what these things regularly go for on the used market. To be honest it looks nice and would fit my needs. The Dual Speed focuser looks similar to what comes on Skywatcher Dobs. If it is similar it probably comes with set screws and no brass split ring . I like the Skywatcher focuser (I think it is the same as what is on my XX14G) but I like my 102ED focuser better. Then there was the issue of longer focal length 2 inch eyepieces possibly not coming to focus which is one of my main goals (I read there is a 10mm variation in tube length also). Either way If one comes up at a good price I would probably get it. 
   
• A lot of votes for 60mm telescopes. AT60ED, TV 60, Evolux 62, etc. Great suggestions. Thank you, however I think I am leaning towards something 70mm plus.  
   
• AT70ED. If the build is like my 102ED I know I would like it. This one is at the top of my list so far but not discounting others.

Some more thoughts:

• I'd be lying if I also wasn't thinking about an ST80.
   
• I can swap in the Dual Speed GSO and TSFLAT2 that are currently on my ST120 get a 6+ degree view. The 4 degree view in the ST120 + 31NT5 is very nice, CA was very minimal if at all at such a low power. BUT, I can closely replicate the view in the in the 102ED with a 40mm ES/68 for 3.65 degrees which is why I don't use the ST120 anymore, the views were too similar.
   
• I can put on an aperture mask to get it close to F/7 and use it with the Quark. Achromat glass is just fine for this. My little 60mm f/7 puts up excellent Ha Views. A masked ST80 with Dual Speed GSO would be a mechanical upgrade to the little blue scope I'm using.
   
• I already have the AT102ED for planets, the Moon, DSOs, doubles, etc.

Edited by vrodriguez2324, 17 March 2025 - 03:07 PM.

[Wolfwatcher]

 

Some reflections:

• A lot of votes for the SW72ED.  The current sale price for a new unit is just about what these things regularly go for on the used market. To be honest it looks nice and would fit my needs. The Dual Speed focuser looks similar to what comes on Skywatcher Dobs. If it is similar it probably comes with set screws and no brass split ring . I like the Skywatcher focuser (I think it is the same as what is on my XX14G) but I like my 102ED focuser better. Then there was the issue of longer focal length 2 inch eyepieces possibly not coming to focus which is one of my main goals (I read there is a 10mm variation in tube length also). Either way If one comes up at a good price I would probably get it. 
   
• A lot of votes for 60mm telescopes. AT60ED, TV 60, Evolux 62, etc. Great suggestions. Thank you, however I think I am leaning towards something 70mm plus.  
   
• AT70ED. If the build is like my 102ED I know I would like it. This one is at the top of my list so far but not discounting others.

Some more thoughts:

• I'd be lying if I also wasn't thinking about an ST80.
   
• I can swap in the Dual Speed GSO and TSFLAT2 that are currently on my ST120 get a 6+ degree view. The 4 degree view in the ST120 + 31NT5 is very nice, CA was very minimal if at all at such a low power. BUT, I can closely replicate the view in the in the 102ED with a 40mm ES/68 for 3.65 degrees which is why I don't use the ST120 anymore, the views were too similar.
   
• I can put on an aperture mask to get it close to F/7 and use it with the Quark. Achromat glass is just fine for this. My little 60mm f/7 puts up excellent Ha Views. A masked ST80 with Dual Speed GSO would be a mechanical upgrade to the little blue scope I'm using.
   
• I already have the AT102ED for planets, the Moon, DSOs, doubles, etc.

 

That extra 10mm probably fixes the focus issue on the 72ed. I had that version fairly recently, but used 1.25 gear only on it, so can't speak to the fix.

 

As to a ST80, there are a couple of Orion versions on EBAY last I looked recently. I have a Celestron version currently, and have owned several versions of the Orion model in the past. To be honest, a little too much CA for me for lunar viewing and planets, but great for general sky sweeping. CA as you note can be corrected some.  Sounds like it would work well for your purposes.  Of course, if you're thinking 80ed, that's a whole different universe!

 

Jett

Edited by Wolfwatcher, 17 March 2025 - 06:17 PM.

[PKDfan]

Hi again Victor,

One of your main requirements was Joy. While thats always an intimate determination for each of us i think you'll notice aberrations very quickly with a often used GnG so you should get the best you can.

The better the view is simply impossible to describe but I'll try anyways....i have a near equivalent to your 60mm F/7 achro in my Bausch & Lomb 60mm spotter and comparing to Evolux is almost no contest. I NEVER believed that a superhigh quality tiny 62mm would do in my assumptions and honestly every expectation was shattered and no where close to the very excellent spotter.

The bigger it is the less it'll get used and the poorer the image ditto.

With this scope Solar work birding hiking is easy and now a 10.1X power and 6 3/4° & a 6.1mm exit pupil swings a mean bat for such a small aperture.

This things a mean streak hitter on a consecitive hitting run. I invested money expressly getting 40XW because this little things such a beast.

Solar work is especially seductive.
I'm not trying to sway you as SW 72 is a very fine performer but this Evolux flatfoeld astrograph is a real sleeper.

Good Hunting !

Its not an easy decision.


CSS
Lance