26 replies to this topic

[the_blue_jester]

If this has been covered I apologise but I did search...

 

I'd like to gauge opinions/help/advice about the potential for a new mount. I actually don't really want to but like a gambler I'm too far into all this to give up now.

 

Current setup

 

• Orion Optics ODK 16
• Esatto 3"
• Innovations Foresight ONAG
• Player One FW
• Player One Zeus
• Paramount ME (Original but now MKS4000 electronics)

 

• Operated remotely/locally
  • by that I mean in a dome (2.7m) on my shed but with me inside the house

 

Problem

 

• I have the SxyX complaining about an intermittent "cannot slew" that I just can't nail down
• The Mount can take the setup with ease of course but there's just a gremlin somewhere I cannot solve
• that then gets me thinking about perhaps having to change and giving me the opportunity for absolute encoders

 

Options

 

1. putup with waking up a failure overnight
   1. with such few nights it makes the whole exercise pointless
2. try to solve
   1. I have and still am
3. new mount
   1. yikes

 

Mounts

 

the ones that seem to come to mind are

 

1. Paramount MEII (with encoders)
   1. As I have experience of SB then 2 is essentailly a known quantity
   2. easier to attach scope
2. Paramount Taurus 400 (with encoders)
   1. However a fork has always appealed with my Cassegrain making this a known manufacturer/software
   2. more messing about to mount the scope
   3. I do have workshop facilities to some extent
3. 10Micron GM3000 HPS (with absolute encoders)
   1. As I have experience of a GEM then variation of a familiar theme
4. Planewave L350
   1. left field contender but concerns about capacity quoted at 45kg
   2. my scope is 36kg so the stuff on the back is maybe 2 - 3kg though ONAG likely redundant with direct drive

 

Then there's the left field Mathis fork but this would be even more expensive and I really can't justify stretching further than the above and the 2 Paramounts are pushing it a bit though I can do it. As I live in the UK I'm stuck with the prices here which often equates to dollar - GBP 1:1. Pricewise the 10Micron and Planewave are similar followed (by a reasonable gap of £5k) by the Software Bisque ones (albeit they come with the full software suite).

 

I know there's a long thread on the L350 (I have read through it) but my main concern is capacity. My setup would be comfortably under the rated capacity but they advertise as being for a 14" but the difficulty in extrapolating is that their next scope (17") is bigger than mine and a third heavier...

 

Just really torn here so thoughts and musing welcomed...

 

Paul

[Ed Wiley]

I have an L350 with a CDK14. If I had a CDK17 I would have an L500. Love my L350. Why not call PW, tell them what you have, fully loaded, and see what they say.

Ed

[macdonjh]

I have an L350 with a CDK14. If I had a CDK17 I would have an L500. Love my L350. Why not call PW, tell them what you have, fully loaded, and see what they say.

Ed

A friend of mine did the same thing when he was considering loading an Astro Physics mount near its stated capacity.  He was very pleased with the customer support and service he received.  I have a hard time believing you wouldn't get similar support from Plane Wave. 

[the_blue_jester]

Ok, thanks. Had been wondering about any real world experience. I'll drop PW a message.

[Elusivephotons]

Have you considered just upgrading the ME to the MKS6000 electronics? I've done this with a MYT & MX and both mounts work great now. The process was fairly straight forward and only took an afternoon to complete.

[drprovi57]

I have both the ME2 (MKS5000) and an older ME (upgraded to MKS5000) - both have been used to carry a CDK17 scope with accessories (100+ lbs) easily.   My older ME mount is still working great - built like a tank.  I agree with above, consider upgrading your ME to MKS5000 or MKS6000 (may not be as useful on the older ME mount) - It was easy to upgrade the ME to MKS5000 board, I think you can still purchase from Bisque (plus save $$ on shipping of new mount).  

 

I have a Planewave L550 mount in a remote observatory - these Planewave mounts are a joy to operate... I suspect even the smaller L350 mount can handle your ODK 16 - but check with Planewave,  also the fork arm on the L350 is shorter, so check on clearance.  In addition, the L-series mounts require precise balancing and then tuning.. 

 

I also have a friends 10Micron GM1000 mount located on my second pier in the remote observatory- I have been very impressed with the 10Micron mounts with encoders.   the GM2000 maybe able to handle your ODK 16 - these mounts tend to have more capacity than the rated value.

 

Regarding mount capacity - I always wondered how the manufacturers compute the payload capacity, I would suspect they use different scopes - not an exact science...

 

Jason

[dhaval]

If I was spending close to $20K, I would absolutely call each of these vendors or their distributors and speak with them. My decision would be based on my conversation with them (and what you find in here). 

 

About the choices, I have experience with a 10Micron GM1000 (and an Astro-Physics AP1600 mount, which I am surprised you haven't listed, but that's OK). The GM1000 is an absolute joy to use. Great support from Ed at DeepSpaceProducts as well. That being said, all those choices seem exceptional. 

 

Thanks and CS!

[Sacred Heart]

Paul,

 

I have a ME MKS3000.   Serial ports, use USB to serial for laptop connections.

 

Explain this slew problem.  Is it at a certain angle, like getting ready to flip??  May be a cable / connection problem.  It is not a baud rate problem, I think mine is set to 9600.  Is it telling you object is not in the sky, out of limits, or just stop shortly after slewing??

 

How about the SB paramount forum??

 

 

Joe

[the_blue_jester]

thanks all, real world experience is one I rely on the most.

 

I have dropped Planewave an email but no response. I know the others in my list can carry my equipment and as I'm familiar with SB I see no need to ask them.

 

I am based in the UK so that puts a different slant on some of the choices.

 

More specifically to my Paramount ME then I have placed a query on their website (and there was someone else with an apparently similar issue). I have tried all reasonable fault finding (relubricated, adjusted plungers, reduced slew rate/acceleration, adjusted cabling, adjusted balance). Not getting too far there though I did cause confusion with plungers versus balance knobs (I explained them incorrectly but was physically using them correctly).

 

The error is random - the mount exercises absolutely fine. I can find the mount stuck with a "cannot slew" error from SkyX - most recently went for 2 nights without issue and then when parking it errored. Other times I am not sure if it's slew or tracking as SkyX doesn't differentiate. If I power cycle it then moves absolutely fine and the balance knobs are not bound and when I released them the balance was perfect.

 

I am not inclined to put 6000 electronics in as this will cost me $2000 plus shipping plus import tax plus vat (likely about $2500 or more in total) for what seems a speculative "try" with no functionality extra I need. Especially as this just feels something other than a board issue.

 

Things have moved on in so much as I have the opportunity to buy a second hand L 350 from the UK. I may go for that but some of the negative experiences on the long L350 post make me worried. I like the idea of direct drive but belts/gears with encoders are a more simple step. This would be about £6k cheaper than the 10Micron and £12k cheaper than the Paramounts.

 

I was drawn to the possibility of unguided imaging and had assumed decent encoder based mounts would oblige but have read that the 10Micron will likely still need guiding.

 

Paul

[Sacred Heart]

Paul,

 

Sorry to hear about your Paramount ME, mine works as if it were day one of ownership.  Me being just a hobbyist in astronomy I never had the need to upgrade electronics. That is why I still have the MKS 3000 board.

 

Being in the UK, I would stay with something that is local and not USA based unless I know I have somewhere to go for service.   Don't know where Plavewave is, but 10 Micron / Italy and ASA / Germany are expensive but very good mounts.

 

Joe

 

PS   This error,  Sky X only says " cannot slew "??   I remember many years ago my mount would start slewing to an object then stop for a while start again  then throw an error.  Don't remember what it was though or how I fixed it.  At most I had  a C14 on it with an Andy Homeyer cradle. Well under the max capacity.

 

I only grease mine once every year or two.  Never did anything else to it.

[drprovi57]

About 5 years ago I had a similar issue with my ME (MKS5000 upgrade) mount carrying a CDK 17" scope - it would intermittently stop slewing.  I thought it was a mechanical issue, but turns out it was a USB connector issue - bad cable.  I replaced the cable and all has been fine ever since.  They ME mount is going on 20 years, never serviced by Bisque, like others, I perform the annual degreasing and reapply new grease per manual.  

[Elusivephotons]

About 5 years ago I had a similar issue with my ME (MKS5000 upgrade) mount carrying a CDK 17" scope - it would intermittently stop slewing. I thought it was a mechanical issue, but turns out it was a USB connector issue - bad cable. I replaced the cable and all has been fine ever since. They ME mount is going on 20 years, never serviced by Bisque, like others, I perform the annual degreasing and reapply new grease per manual.

I agree with this. For the cost of replacing all the cables, it is probably worth a try. Sounds like an intermittent connection issue..

[Sacred Heart]

Worth a try, but if it were a connection problem, why would the mount stay connected to the Sky program.  A connection problem internal.  wires going to the motors or maybe a bug in the version of the Sky X???  Or, if wifi controlled weak signal.

 

It has to be something simple stupid.  Cable, software setting, something.

 

Joe

Edited by Sacred Heart, 25 March 2025 - 01:13 PM.

[Elusivephotons]

I had nothing but strange issues when using Wifi for mount control. They all disappeared when I switched to wired(Ethernet).

[drprovi57]

A couple of follow up questions to consider:

 

1. If the mount "stalls" due to a mechanical issue (e.g., improper balance, adjusted plungers, etc) the mount would start to "beep" telling the operator the motors can not slew the mount - I also recall the "current sensing" that the old ME MKS3000 boards would have issue - but you upgraded to MKS4000.  I suspect you do not have any mechanical issues but wiring - have you reseated your connectors (motors and sensors) on the MKS4000 board - its a pain on the ME mounts, but I also had a connector issue in the distant pass with my ME with MKS4000 board, before I upgraded for second time to MKS5000 board.

 

2. Since the TSX remains "connected" with the error -  an intermittent USB cable can cause this - the mount gets a a few USB drop outs, and it senses the mount is not slewing, hence the error - you may still remain connected to the TSX  - I would swap out the USB cable and check the USB connector on the MKS4000 board.  Also check your PC USB connection or any USB hub that you may be using.

[the_blue_jester]

Thanks, was so focused on "serious" issues hadn't thought of that. Intemittent problems are so difficult to fault find.vAs the 4000 has but serial (real) and virtual serial (USB) I'll swap. USB and Bluetooth are such good ideas but a source ofweird issues at times.

 

Strangely last night all worked perfectly, including my dome that's caused innumerable issues. That last bit makes it sound like cabling but the dome issue is the dome -> shutter connection which is bluetooth, not PVC -> dome which is USB.

 

Paul

Edited by the_blue_jester, 26 March 2025 - 05:15 AM.

[Elusivephotons]

Any wireless tech is much more sensitive to interference than wired alternatives. A microwave turning on in the house, a vehicle running nearby, other electronic gadgets doing their thing, are all sources of intermittent problems. Wireless has its place, such as controlling a mount or focuser for visual observing, or outreach events. I really do think wireless tech does not belong in an automated astrophotography setup. (Unless you like extreme frustration) It would be sad to change out your mount only to find a wireless issue effecting your new mount as well. (Or bad cable for that matter)

Edited by Elusivephotons, 26 March 2025 - 06:16 PM.

[WillB]

Hi Paul.

 

I see you have opened a thread on the Software Bisque forum so maybe that will have a solution.

 

I replaced an MX Classic with a 10 Micron 2000HPS two years ago after struggling with unreliability and performance issues with the MX for over ten years. I had spent half as much again on spares for the MX since new than the mount cost originally and being in the UK the import and exchange part-return freight costs were spiralling to ridiculous levels but at least we now have a UK distributor that carries, or can obtain, Paramount parts at commercial freight rates.

 

The MX+ mount was/is a better mount than the original MX Classic and maybe I was just unlucky and bought a Friday afternoon lemon.

 

Since installing the 10 Micron 2000 HPS I no longer need to guide and productivity has increased dramatically with no lost subs due to mount issues. Current setup is with a quadruplet refractor but I also have an ODK10, so similar setup to you but on a smaller scale.

 

With the 10 Micron’s choice of different metals for the worm and gear than the Paramount’s there’s no requirement to re-lubricate the worms every year, and no need to fine tune the mechanics of the drive system, in comparison to a Paramount the 10 Micron is as close to “plug and-play” as you’ll get.

 

I don’t know the MKS4000 system, the MX Classic came with MKS5000, and from your description it’s not clear exactly when your “Cannot slew” error occurs but from memory this would occur sporadically with my MX if you had set the park position to be exactly on the horizon and in the MKS5000 configuration had set “Inhibit slews below the horizon” to be active.  Some internal MKS calculation would sometimes consider slewing to park at the horizon when “Inhibit slews below the horizon” was enabled to be forbidden, and sometimes not.

 

Moving the park position to be five degrees above the horizon cured that sporadic “Cannot slew” error message in TheSky that would occur when the observatory control application told the mount to park during a weather event or at the session end.

 

The other common issue with the MKS5000 system on the MX Classic was the very weak and flakey USB comms link, prone to disconnect on the merest hint of electrical noise and with the MKS5000 board’s USB UART chip easily damaged by impermissible ground loops or nearby lightning storms.

 

I needed to install an industrial high-speed USB2 opto-isolator between mount and observatory computer to prevent random disconnects between TheSky and the MX and protect the board’s USB UART chip.

 

I assume that during your fault diagnosis that you’ve tried a different PC?

 

With the Paramount being almost totally reliant on TheSky to operate then any issues with the PC hardware or software environment will affect operation of the mount, which is another significant difference between a Paramount and a 10 Micron mount, with the latter having its own separate control computer (Linux based I think?) and therefore less likely to be compromised by the vagaries of the observatory computer’s operating system.

 

One other very obvious difference between a Paramount and a 10 Micron mount is the service and support method. The Software Bisque method is very open and public with the primary method being through the support forum, it is very difficult to get direct support from Software Bisque unless you’re in the USA and I found they wouldn’t reply to phone calls or emails requesting direct support from the UK.

 

10 Micron technical support is provided by the local distributor in the first instance, you can’t contact 10 Micron directly and the 10 Micron forum is basically a user-to-user support network and repository for software/firmware and documentation, you can’t reach a 10 Micron technician or developer through the 10 Micron forum.

 

For a Paramount you can obtain and replace all the major parts yourself, albeit at a comparatively high cost if you’re not in the USA.

For a 10 Micron mount there’s virtually nothing you can repair or replace yourself and most hardware failures would require the mount to be shipped to the local distributor, and if they couldn’t repair it then back to Baader in Germany or 10 Micron in Italy, and with international shipping costs at an all time high these costs (and the import-export documentation required) are not insignificant.

 

HTH

 

Will.

Edited by WillB, 27 March 2025 - 08:01 AM.

[syxbach]

Only suggestion: No Paramount

[the_blue_jester]

Elusivephotons - I completely agree and really don't like flakey Bluetooth (even phone -> car is flakey). Unfortunately for shutter -> dome can't see any other way except wireless. I suppose having contacts and then only opening/closing in a set position would work but that's a load more tinkering.

 

WillB - interested to hear all that. I was aware the 5000 had, cough, cough, issues. The ODK (not sure if you struggled to collimate etc like I did) has a FL 0f 1700 for the 10 and 2700 for the 16. I read somewhere that even though the 10Microns have absolute encoders they weren't really up to unguided imaging. I can get 5 mins from the ME with guiding and it would be great to go unguided but had been put off by the experience I had read; I think the reasoning was that the Planewave (as the Paramounts do with Protrack) use a pointing model to employ a pre-emptive guiding model too, the implication was the 10Micron doesn't. I'm aware that encoders are not a panacea though. I doubt it's the park position as it only once complained (and just checked now and it's 30 degrees in altitiude) and then reather than "mount cannot slew" it was stuck on "parking" even though not moving, it's always been whilst imaging (slewing or tracking) when it's shown an error. When the weather clears I'll try the "real" serial port and also put some contact cleaner on things and I've also refitted all accessories, tinkered with cables and rebalnced agin. As to the SB forum then it's gone quiet so I don't expect progress there.

 

thanks for all your input

 

Paul

[psandelle]

 

 

I read somewhere that even though the 10Microns have absolute encoders they weren't really up to unguided imaging.

 

Not sure where you heard that but 10Microns were built SPECIFICALLY for unguided/predictive imaging. What's more, you can sky-model without need of an outside computer. The 10Microns are EXTREMELY user friendly when it comes to unguided (and there are automated front ends like Model Creator and MountWizzard that not only keep things simple, but add extra bang-for-buck; both are free. NINA has a specific plug-in as well, and Prism has 10Micron modelling built-in). I've used Bisques, APs, 10Microns,PlaneWaves etc. (all but the ASAs) and found, for me, the 10Micron algorithms for modelling to be just slightly superior to the others, but that's just my circumstances).

Paul

[the_blue_jester]

psandelle - can't for the life of me find it now as I've done so much reading. An article I read definitely said Paramounts/Planewave can image unguided but 10Micron not. The article gave the rationale about a pointing model being used as a predictive guiding model (as in Protrack).

 

That's the beneift of asking here - falacies from elsewhere can be corrected and it's reassuring that 10Micron would be fine. On doing further reading there does seem to be a predictive guiding facility with 10Micron but I wasn't clear if it was based through the handset/controller or separate software.

 

thanks

 

Paul

[psandelle]

psandelle - can't for the life of me find it now as I've done so much reading. An article I read definitely said Paramounts/Planewave can image unguided but 10Micron not. The article gave the rationale about a pointing model being used as a predictive guiding model (as in Protrack).

 

That's the beneift of asking here - falacies from elsewhere can be corrected and it's reassuring that 10Micron would be fine. On doing further reading there does seem to be a predictive guiding facility with 10Micron but I wasn't clear if it was based through the handset/controller or separate software.

 

thanks

 

Paul

It's built into the computer that runs the scope (no outside computer needed) which is a turnkey box that is separate from the HC (so it's VERY bulletproof), but there are softwares that act as a front-end to automate it...USING the onboard computer facility, so it's VERY tight with its own algorithms and, I believe still, it's own absolute encoders. The cool part is that 10Micron is an offshoot of a much older machinist company, and when one of them wanted to do astro, they had VERY advanced abilities to get it done how they saw fit because they already had the expertise. The ONLY thing the two lighter mounts (the 1000 & 2000) don't have is through-the-mount cabling (or a power/use hub built in the saddle). I almost thought that might be a thing, but it really isn't. I've never once had a cable snag, 1. because I use the Two Loop method; 2. 10Micron thinks of everything, and their knobs are built so cables don't catch but slide off.

Paul

[Jeff Morgan]

 

 

Since installing the 10 Micron 2000 HPS I no longer need to guide and productivity has increased dramatically with no lost subs due to mount issues. Current setup is with a quadruplet refractor but I also have an ODK10, so similar setup to you but on a smaller scale.

 

With the 10 Micron’s choice of different metals for the worm and gear than the Paramount’s there’s no requirement to re-lubricate the worms every year, and no need to fine tune the mechanics of the drive system, in comparison to a Paramount the 10 Micron is as close to “plug and-play” as you’ll get.

 

Having not used all of the alternatives the OP has listed, I will not be so bold as to suggest one option is “the best”.

 

But I do have three years of hands-on experience with the 10Micron GM1000 and can confirm everything you said. I go 100% unguided and haven’t lost a sub to guiding. Sold off my entire guiding infrastructure and haven’t missed it a bit. In fact, I don’t even use a finderscope or glp. Not needed.

 

The largest scope I have used is a 150mm f/8 refractor, the mount handles it beautifully even with winds at 10 knots gusting 15. And there are posts from people shooting 2500mm + unguided using 10Micron mounts.

 

Depending upon my autofocus, dithering and number of targets shot per night (creating extra plate solves and meridian flips) I typically run about 90 minutes of good data for every 100 minutes of darkness. My conclusion is the only meaningful improvement I can make to my productivity is to commission a second rig (hint hint).

 

It is also dead-simple to use. Pretty much plug and play. My current setup is a SkyShed Pod, so it is a “permanent” installation, steps are:

 

1) Power up mount;

2) Load model from memory;

3) Connect in NINA; and

4) Off to the races.

 

For a mobile user, one of course would have to add the polar align and model building steps. Easy to do with mount hand pad. Even easier with one of several apps running on an acquisition pc (NINA, MW4, or Model Creator). All possible before the end of nautical twilight.

 

I am starting a ROR observatory that will have two imaging rigs. I love my 10Micron so much last January I purchased another 10Micron for the second rig. 

[Rasfahan]

psandelle - can't for the life of me find it now as I've done so much reading. An article I read definitely said Paramounts/Planewave can image unguided but 10Micron not. The article gave the rationale about a pointing model being used as a predictive guiding model (as in Protrack).

 

That's the beneift of asking here - falacies from elsewhere can be corrected and it's reassuring that 10Micron would be fine. On doing further reading there does seem to be a predictive guiding facility with 10Micron but I wasn't clear if it was based through the handset/controller or separate software.

 

thanks

 

Paul

10Micron mounts are one of the few that can do unguided. I am in a very specific situation because my mount is situated on a wooden deck - certainly not optimal. I can still go unguided up to 300s at 0.6"/px (1600mm FL). This even works in wind. Because the deck might shift suddenly this is not totally reliable and I also have to recreate the sky model about once per week. On more stable ground I am sure it will last for months and much longer FL and exposures will be possible.

 

The dual-axis tracking/unguided tracking functionality is built into the mount computer. You generate a sky model and then unguided tracking "just works" and is transparent. The mount was the best purchase I made for AP. I was able to create a workable sky model within 2hrs of opening the box and haven't lost a single sub due to a mount problem since. It's been 3.5 years. The first service will be necessary in another 6. If I need another medium to heavy duty mount, it will come from 10Micron.