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Looking for better magnification suggestions

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#1 Marknluchy

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 10:16 AM

Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Using a Celestron Starsense Explorer DX, 130AZ D=130, F=650, f/5.

Up to 2" eyepieces but currently using only 1.25" 

 

My accessories are stock quality 10mm and 25mm, an 8mm to 24mm zoom(purchased to adapt to my Canon DSLR as per an earlier recommendation). I also have a 2x and 5x barlow. And I have a laser collimator which I have gained a nice understand of it's use.

 

I will limit my question to the goal of trying to achieve a better view of Jupiter. I realize with the limited quality of my equipment I can't expect much, but every little suggestion may help.

 

I am able to get a clear view of Jupiter and several of it's moons. I basically see Jupiter as a perfectly round small bright dot. My desire is to see the cloud bands, which I just about detected but almost wondered if I was imagining them only. I would like to magnify the size if I could.

 

So far I've maxed out at 10mm + 5x barlow including a 82A(don't have an 80) filter and an 82A+21(orange).

 

Is there any advantage to 2 inch eyepieces to achieve a greater magnification?

 

Just a note: I've also been determined to understand and achieve the absolute best collimation. I went as far as removing my secondary mirror and spider then calibrating the rotation of the mount it sits on to the closest 45 degrees I could achieve. once satisfied, I marked the alignment with a tiny strip of white tape. Now when I make secondary mirror adjustments, it's easy to see how that center axis goes out of alignment and thus keep it centered. I did this because I was competing to keep the primary and secondary laser points to agree. 

 

Resized_20250318_100623_1742306796104.jpeg


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#2 ngc7319_20

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 10:36 AM

Optimal magnification to see planet details with this scope will be between 10mm and 5mm eyepiece (5mm is effectively the 10mm and 2x Barlow).  Using the 10mm with the 5x Barlow is too much power.

 

No, 2 inch eyepieces are needed for LOW POWER only.  They won't help with Jupiter.

 

Yes good collimation will help. Do you have a so-called "Barlowed laser"?  That will help.  Also learn about "star testing" and check the collimation with star test on a star near Jupiter.

 

Observe Jupiter when as high in sky as possible (less atmosphere).  Right now that means soon after sunset.

 

Get the scope acclimated to the outdoor temperature before you observe.  This will be tricky this time of year, since the temperature often drops rapidly after sunset.  Nights where the temperature is not dropping much will be better.  You can look at the hour-by-hour weather forecast.

 

I've never found (blue or other) filters to help much, though I know they are "supposed" to help.


Edited by ngc7319_20, 22 March 2025 - 10:37 AM.

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#3 sevenofnine

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 10:48 AM

Welcome back! smile.gif

 

In scopes/eyepieces of modest quality, you can expect magnifications of 50x per inch of aperture on a good night of Seeing. Of course you can go higher but the view is going to get soft and lacking in detail. That means your 5" scope can go to 250x if the night sky cooperates. The best way of getting better detail is to chase sky conditions and not power. By that I mean try to time your viewing on a good night to one when Jupiter is very close to zenith. That way you are looking through the least atmospheric turbulence. Gradually increase your power until the planet starts to look soft then back off a bit. I've also found that the best way to view is using a Moon and SkyGlow filter. It helps bring out the GRS when visible and some of the festoons. This app. is useful in timing the movement of the GRS. Best of luck to you! borg.gif

 

https://skyandtelesc...great-red-spot/.


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#4 rollomonk

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 10:48 AM

I'm wondering why you haven't seen Jupiter's bands already... it doesn't need much power... 50x - 100x is plenty... which means your 10mm should have been enough as well as your zoom. Your telescope is capable of offering good views at least up to 130x (a 5mm eyepiece) if not higher.

 

Makes me wonder if you are actually looking at Jupiter.... perhaps a grouping of stars nearby? Hmmm....


Edited by rollomonk, 22 March 2025 - 10:50 AM.

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#5 barbarosa

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 11:07 AM

You may find the Astronomy Tools Field of View Calculator will help you to visualize the relative scale of an object using different combinations of scope, Barlow and eyepiece. Here for example is Jupiter using a scope with your specs, a 10mm Ploessl and a 5x Barlow. Take the image as a guide to how much of your field of view will be taken up by Jupiter. Do take it as an accurate representation of the detail. The detail you actually will resolve is dependent on factors, such as seeing and not strictly on magnification.

 

astronomy_tools_fov (1).png

 

I[ve owned scopes that capable of sharp views at 400x other perhaps with the moon, the practical limit was always much lower. The sharpest view of Saturn I ever saw was through a friend's TV-85 with a TV eyepiece and Barlow. Good equipment but the secret was clear still air at 4500' in the Nevada desert. At home near the coast the best planetary image I ever captured was with a C-11 and a 2x Barlow, but that was lucky imaging at 370x. With an EP generally the best views were at a max of 180x, but usually less.

 

A 2" EP will not help your setup in terms of image quality, detail resolution. The 50x rule of thumb is just that, a rough guide and not a suggestion for what will work for your eyes in your location with your scope and your atmospheric conditions. I very much doubt that you can ever attain the calculated maximum magnification of 377x that Celestron specifies and I wouldn't worry about that. 

 

What you should not do is buy eyepieces and Barlows at higher costs in hope of a knockout view of the details in Jupiter's clouds. Stick with equipment that matches your scope, which is a basic Newtonian capable of pleasing views of many objects at modest at lower magnifications.


Edited by barbarosa, 22 March 2025 - 11:18 AM.

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#6 Vic Menard

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 11:22 AM

...I will limit my question to the goal of trying to achieve a better view of Jupiter. I realize with the limited quality of my equipment I can't expect much, but every little suggestion may help.

 

I am able to get a clear view of Jupiter and several of it's moons. I basically see Jupiter as a perfectly round small bright dot. My desire is to see the cloud bands, which I just about detected but almost wondered if I was imagining them only. I would like to magnify the size if I could.

 

I would suggest using somewhere between 100X and 150X (20X to 30X per inch of aperture) for good planetary image performance (so, somewhere between 7mm and 4mm--5mm (126X) could be your 10mm with 2X Barlow or 25mm with 5X Barlow--try both). If those magnifications are too high, try your zoom at 8mm (81X). If you need more magnification, try the zoom at 8mm with the 2X barlow (160X). You should easily see the two prominent equatorial bands at any of those magnifications.

 

Also try to observe Jupiter at its highest point--that happens at 6:20 PM today. With DST, you'll need to wait about 2 hours for astronomical twilight. Over those 2 hours Jupiter will lose about 25-degrees altitude (still almost 60-degrees above the horizon from my location). Once Jupiter gets below 30- to 40-degrees altitude, surface detail will become more difficult to resolve.

 

1.) So far I've maxed out at 10mm + 5x barlow including a 82A(don't have an 80) filter and an 82A+21(orange).

2.) Is there any advantage to 2 inch eyepieces to achieve a greater magnification?

 

1.) That's too much magnification (~60X per inch aperture). And while good filters can boost image contrast, "cheap" filters can often reduce fine detail. At least, that's been my experience. 

2.) No. The advantage of 2-inch eyepieces is lower magnification for a wider field of view. Unfortunately, your "oversized" secondary mirror is too small for a 2-inch low power, wide field eyepiece. The good news is that good 1.25-inch eyepieces are usually less expensive.

 

Just a note: I've also been determined to understand and achieve the absolute best collimation. I went as far as removing my secondary mirror and spider then calibrating the rotation of the mount it sits on to the closest 45 degrees I could achieve. once satisfied, I marked the alignment with a tiny strip of white tape. Now when I make secondary mirror adjustments, it's easy to see how that center axis goes out of alignment and thus keep it centered. I did this because I was competing to keep the primary and secondary laser points to agree. 

 

Once you've sorted out the offset and rotation (secondary mirror placement), a reference mark (like you've added) provides a quick read that the rotation hasn't (obviously) changed.

 

To get the "...primary and secondary laser points to agree", you should first assess the outgoing laser beam alignment relative to the primary mirror center marker/donut. Any residual error should be corrected using the secondary mirror tilt adjustment screws. This corrects the focuser axis. When the outgoing beam is correct, you can then finish the axial alignments by adjjusting the primary mirror tilt to align the return beam to the laser emitter. When both axial alignments are correct, the axes coincide and the outgoing beam and the return beam follow the same path. 

 

Assuming the secondary mirror placement is correct (step 1 of Newtonian collimation), routine axial collimation should be assessed (and corrected as needed) before all observing sessions. And always in the same order:

Step 1 - secondary mirror placement

Step 2 - focuser axial alignment, and

Step 3 - primary mirror axial alignment.

 

So, if you decide to "tweak" the secondary mirror rotation and/or secondary mirror tilt to "center" the reflection of the primary mirror in the secondary mirror, you MUST follow with steps 2 and 3. Similarly, if you make a secondary mirror tilt adjustment to correct the outgoing laser beam alignment, you MUST follow with step 3 primary mirror alignment. 


Edited by Vic Menard, 22 March 2025 - 11:30 AM.

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#7 PKDfan

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 11:55 AM


Hi Mark !

If its any comfort i've got some pretty nice scopes and when i go out to observe Jupiter its always a crapshoot as far as what detail i'll actually see. Literally 50 different times 50 different views -so stick with it & follow the awesome advice you've been given and slowly its wonderful secrets will also be yours.



Clear Steady Skies are everything

Lance
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#8 rfcooley

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 12:27 PM

A lot of very good advice here.  By very experienced observers. I have nothing to add except to lower the expectations with your current equipment. What you are looking for is probably not achievable even with much higher end equipment would be my suspicion.

 

Never Lose the Wonder, 

 

Rf


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#9 SeattleScott

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 12:48 PM

The 10mm alone should reveal cloud bands. If the 2x barlow isn’t junk, it should make the cloud bands pretty obvious. Especially with a light blue filter, especially if the filter isn’t junk.

It sounds like your collimation should be fine for these relatively low magnifications. While one can always learn more about collimation, you sound like you are probably pretty close, and the 10mm with 2x barlow still isn’t that much magnification. Less than perfect collimation would suffice.

I suspect your problem seeing bands is some combination of:
Viewing Jupiter when it is too low in sky
Not allowing time for the scope to adjust to outside temperature (30 minutes should be fine for your small scope)
Possibly poor quality of your barlow, filter and/or eyepiece
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#10 daveb2022

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 01:04 PM

I also have issues why you are not seeing some detail on Jupiter. How steady are your skies?

 

I agree with everything Vic has posted and it might be wise to check the scopes collimation as suggested above. Trying to over magnify is a typical method used when purchasing a telescope. I still do it just to push the limits for fun, but I know my expectations. I also agree to use the zoom and 2x Barlow to experiment with.

At public events, I get a lot of "that's it?" type remarks on some objects. I understand people have different expectations. Depending on the object, I often tell visitors what to expect before they put their eye to the EP.

 

 

Sometimes I see those new to telescopes being unsure how to judge the sky conditions. I'm lucky that my average conditions where I observe from are favorable more than not. Bad sky conditions can't be fixed by aperture or money. This is often an issue overlooked. I do a lot of travel and always haul a refractor. Many places I camp at have poor conditions. At those spots, I know there is much more of a possibility that I'll be wasting my time setting up. I can't blame the equipment.

 

Just my opinion, but maybe worry about filters after you've exhausted other avenues to get a better image at the EP. I do use filters especially the Baader contrast and the Moon and Skyglow filters, but they might not help if the scopes collimation is off.

 

Have fun testing your scope.


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#11 WillR

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 01:24 PM

I agree with everyone that you should see the cloud bands with your 10 mm eyepiece. Have you tried seeing the 4 stars of the Trapezium in M42 with your 10mm? I have the same telescope as you and was able to see those 4 stars as distinct stars with the included 10mm, although they were tight. That will be a good test of your optics, collimation and seeing conditions.

 

My high power eyepiece for that telescope was this one: https://astronomics....aradigm-dual-ed

 

It will give you 135x which I found was the practical limit for good resolution in that scope.


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#12 havasman

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 01:25 PM

Observing skill is what will most improve the views you get. You are chasing empty magnification, that which yields only numbers and not better views. IMO your 5x Barlow is maybe worth its mass as a paperweight. It is a prime characteristic of inexperienced observers that they overrate magnification's contribution to bright planet observing.

 

I'd suggest that if you want to buy a solution you pick up something like an Astro-Tech Paradigm Dual ED 8mm to see what a considerably higher performance eyepiece can give you. Use it w/o Barlow, slow down to observe patiently being ready for the overhead air to still enough to reveal best observing opportunity and see it well. It won't stay around long but you should log it in your mind, continue patiently observing while waiting for the next glimpse. Continue until you have in your mind the best image you will get. Keep practicing this and you will develop observing skills more adequate to your preferred tasks.

 

150x magnification should probably be your goal magnification. You scope is well capable of showing a patient skilled observer good detail on Jupiter and Saturn too. ALL THE DETAIL OBSERVABLE AT SILLY-HIGH MAGNIFICATION IS AVAILABLE AT LOWER MAGNIFICATION! It is our job to build skills adequate to picking them out of the presented image. I was out last night observing Jupiter with a 150mm refractor and had very good success at 92, 120 and 171x, FAR short of what I can generate with that scope. I was not prompted to go higher at all.

 

Improvement beyond that will likely come via Jupiter's next close approach. Now it is receding. It will be closer next year.


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#13 kathyastro

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 02:01 PM

Is there any advantage to 2 inch eyepieces to achieve a greater magnification?

Definitely not!  The eyepiece barrel diameter has no effect on magnification at all.  The wider (2") barrel is to accommodate wider fields of view, which are found at lower magnifications.  If you want higher magnification, you will want shorter focal length eyepieces.  They will most likely be in the 1.25" format, which is entirely adequate for the limited field of view that the higher magnification gives you.


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#14 Jay_Reynolds_Freeman

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 03:01 PM

Your problem might be seeing-related, in which case patience and persistence are your best friends. With good seeing, Jupiter's cloud bands should be easy in 130 mm.

 

Clear sky ...


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#15 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 04:28 PM

The articles at the following URLs discuss the steadiness of the atmosphere and other factors known as astronomical seeing:

 

http://www.damianpeach.com/seeing1.htm

 

http://www.damianpea...m/pickering.htm

 

https://skyandtelesc...ing-the-seeing/

 

https://www.skyatnig...nomical-seeing/

 

https://sentinelmiss...nomical-seeing/


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#16 Marknluchy

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 04:59 PM

Thanks so much for all your helpful replies ! I read each one thoroughly and the best information I gathered was that magnification is not an issue and also I don't need to chase after 2" eyepiece solutions. The image barbarosa provided is similar to what I see now minus the cloud band detail. I have on occasion barely detected the two main cloud bands in parallel to the line of Jupiter's moons. This took too much concentration though. This gives me something else to seriously consider, and that is, could my image of Jupiter be too bright. While I have it in sharp focus, it feels blinding in brightness. Could this be hindering my ability to see more detail? I have tried stopping down with my tube cover. Any other ways to cut brightness?


Edited by Marknluchy, 22 March 2025 - 06:27 PM.


#17 SeattleScott

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 05:17 PM

One time with my 10” Jupiter was arguably “too bright “ and I was able to see more cloud bands by dimming Jupiter by putting my eye right on the edge of the exit pupil, so I wasn’t getting all the light coming out of the eyepiece.

More conventional approaches would be using more magnification, or using a filter, like Blue, or I have even heard of people with larger scopes using a variable polarizing filter to cut down Jupiter’s brightness.
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#18 Inkie

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 05:20 PM

Thanks so much for all your helpful replies ! I read each one thoroughly and the best information I gathered was that magnification is not an issue and also I don't need to chase after 2" eyepiece solutions. The image barbarosa provided is similar to what I see now minus the cloud band detail. I have on occasion barely detected the two main cloud bands in parallel to the line of Jupiter's moons. This took too much concentration though. This gives me something else to seriously consider, and that is, could my image of Jupiter be too bright. While I have it in sharp focus, it feels blinding in brightness. Could this be hindering my ability to see more detail? I have tried stopping down with my tube cover. Any other ways too cut brightness?

That, right there in blue, tells me you have everything going for you, quality, collimation, the right eyepieces, your corrected/uncorrected eyesight....everything except seeing.  Those fleeting glimpses of the band tells me your equipment will show it to you when it can.  And what you are seeing is what we all see in the same circumstances.  We are at the mercy of the atmosphere above us.


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#19 Vic Menard

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 05:46 PM

...This gives me something else to seriously consider, and that is, could my image of Jupiter be too bright. While I have it in sharp focus, it feels blinding in brightness.

Generally speaking, with 5-inches of aperture and 150X magnification, Jupiter should not be "blinding in brightness". But, if that's the problem, I can think of two easy solutions:

1.) Start your jupiter observing session during twilight. Jupiter is usually easy to find when the sky is still relatively bright, and seeing can also be remarkably steady before temperatures starts dropping.

2.) As long as you're the only one observing, turn on the porch light, use a regular white light flashlight during your Jupiter observing session. Do your best to keep your "dark adaptation" from happening. 


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#20 northernmike

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 08:51 PM

I am not an experienced astronomer like some members here , still a 2 year newbie and here are my toughts about your questions, because I've been there not so long ago.

 

I had a 130 mm reflector , i sold it  not long ago. With good collimation and the 2 plossls that came with my scope , i was able to see the gas band of Jupiter. The seeing conditions were good in my bortle 5  spot.

 

I agree with everyone here , the 5'X barlow is just good for a paper weight.  I recently bought an ES focal extender 2X , it's a very good quality one and a 10 mm EP becomes a 5 mm.

 

One thing that can help you choosing  good seeing conditions is clear sky chart , I use it frequently to organize my nights of astronomy.

https://www.cleardarksky.com/csk/

 

Be patient , keep your scope well collimated and buy either a good barlow or a  good 5 to 8 mm EP and you be able to use your telescope at its full potential. 


Edited by northernmike, 22 March 2025 - 08:53 PM.

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#21 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 22 March 2025 - 09:16 PM

As Vic said, a white light can serve as an effective "filter" for observing bright objects such as Jupiter and the Moon.


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#22 PNW

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Posted 23 March 2025 - 12:45 AM

I often find Jupiter too bright to see the bands. Fortunately I have a single polarizing filter that cuts the glare down to where I can see the bands. A pair of sunglasses will produce the same effect...


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#23 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 23 March 2025 - 12:52 AM

The Baader Neodymium (Moon & Skyglow) Filter does a good job in enhancing views of Jupiter.

 

https://www.baader-p...low-filter.html

 


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#24 Sketcher

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Posted 23 March 2025 - 01:15 PM

OK, you now know that your difficulties in seeing detail on Jupiter is not something that can be solved through the use of "better" magnification -- and I'm in absolute agreement with that.

 

You also now know that 2-inch eyepieces are not chosen for higher magnifications, but for their lower magnifications and wider true fields of view.

 

That's progress!

 

So, what about seeing detail on Jupiter? 

 

First off, I dislike the use of the term "bands" when referring to Jupiter's Belts and/or Zones.  This goes back to my beginnings in this hobby -- back in the 1960s, when I read book after book on astronomy, even before I had my first real terescope (which had half the theoretical resolution of your telescope and 1/4 the light-gathering power).  I learned early on that those so called "bands" have names, with the two most prominent dark ones being the North and South Equatorial Belts.  The dark "bands" are belts.  The light "bands" are zones and they each have their own individual names.  But that's really not at all about seeing detail on Jupiter . . .

 

You've seen Jupiter's two major belts (which an experienced observer can usually see with a 1-inch telescope at 67x).  A 130mm telescope of the highest quality, used by an experienced observer is capable of showing far more than just those two belts.  It's also capable of showing structure within those belts, festoons in Jupiter's Equatorial Zone and limb darkening related to Jupiter's location relative to the Earth and the Sun.  It's even capable of showing Jupiter's moons as being of different sizes and different colors -- sufficient detail to be able to recognize which moon is which -- without having to consult a reference.

 

But that's with an experienced observer and a 130mm telescope of near-perfect quality -- neither of which a typical beginner will l ikely have.  So, what's happening in your situation?

 

Telescope quality is undoubtedly at least part of the problem.  And I'm not referring to eyepieces nor Barlows.  I've used the cheapest eyepiece imaginable with one of the highest-quality 130mm telescopes on the planet and was able to see more detail on Jupiter than I could see when using a high-quality TeleVue eyeplece with a larger (but lower quality) telescope.  And just how cheap was that cheapest eyepiece?  Well, it came with a telescope that sold for $15 when brand new.  That eyepiece conssted of four uncoated plastic lenses.  So, don't try to solve your Jupiter difficulties by wasting money on high-quality eyepieces.

 

Ah, but experience.  That's something that beginners tend to overlook.  Three true stories:

 

1) One night I was observing Jupiter with a 250mm telescope (yes, larger than your telescope, but keep reading).  A shadow transit of one of Jupiter's moons was in progress.  My son (inexperienced in using telescopes) came for a look.  He was unable to see the small, dark shadow of the moon on Jupiter's bright clouds.  I described precisely where to look for the shadow.  My son looked again, but still could not see it.  I made a quick sketch for him to use as a reference.  But still, he was unable to see that shadow -- which by the way was glaringly obvious to me.  Experience vs. Inexperience.

 

2) One night I took a 102mm telescope (smaller than your telescope) to a school to show the students some celestial sights.  Jupiter was one of our targets.  Upon pointing the telescope at Jupiter I immediately noticed that once again, a shadow transit was in progress (They occur frequently with Jupiter and its Galilean moons).  But this time, after that experience noted in #2 above, I didn't inform anyone of the transit.  Instead, I requested each person to carefully describe all that they noticed on Jupiter.  No one mentioned seeing a tiny black dot on the planet.  Experience vs. Inexperience.

 

3) One evening a young guest (who eventually became and adult and gained employment with a major planetarium company) was with me when I was working on an observation and sketch of Mercury.  I was working on the shadings of albedo (lighter and darker) features that I could see on the planet.  When asked if he could see those features, I was somewhat surprised by his response.  He stated that he couldn't even see the planet's phase -- again, something that was obvious to me.  In fairness, the seeing conditions were not very good, but an experienced enough observer develops a kind of brain "software" that can filter out much of the effects from poor seeing conditions -- much like some of the digital software "magic" that imagers use.  Anyway, this is another example of the difference between experience and inexperience in using an astronomical telescope.

 

So, what's the point of all of this?

 

a)  Don't waste money trying to buy yourself better views -- at least not with the telescope that you have -- especially when it comes to eyepieces.

 

b)  Experience matters!  An inexperienced observer would be lucky to see half of what a more experienced observer could see when observing the same planet, with the same telescope, at the same magnification, on the same night, etc.

 

Regardless of the quality of your telescope, until you've become more experienced, you will not be able to see all that your telescope is capable of showing you.

 

How to become a more experienced observer quickly:  Observe as much as possible.  Take notes when observing.  Make the effort to see as much as you can possibly see and record even the subtlest of details on an at-the-eyepiece sketch.

 

There have been times when I've observed Jupiter or Mars for more than an hour before even beginning a sketch.  One will see more when one observes, as opposed to just taking relatively quick looks.

 

As you've likely discovered, when looking through a telescope, you're looking though an ever-changing atmosphere with a telescope that may be compromised by thermal effects.  You're not looking at a static, non-changing image.  You're looking at something that is constantly changing.  It takes a bit of experience to train the eye-brain system to pick out the real details from what is often a more or less turbulent view.

 

Be patient.  Training the eye-brain system isn't something that takes place overnight.


  • Dave Mitsky, Asbytec, havasman and 8 others like this

#25 Inkie

Inkie

    Apollo

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Posted 23 March 2025 - 04:28 PM

I offer my sincere compliments to you, Sketcher. It's a post that could have been found on Page X of any good visual/amateur astronomy text.


  • Asbytec and PKDfan like this


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