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Baader 1.7x GPC questions

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#1 Alan S

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Posted 24 March 2025 - 06:57 PM

I have seen a couple references in threads that the Baader 1.7 GPC is actually tested/measured to be 1.5x, yet I can not seem to find any of the threads where these tests/measurements were reported. Can anyone please point me to them?

 

Also- If I want to calculate TFOV, exit pupil and magnification for eyepieces, is it safe to then assume that I use the FL of the scope x 1.5 for the calculations?

 

(If it matters, I am using the 1.7 gpc threaded into the Baader 1.25" T-2 prism on the binoviewer side)

 

Thanks,

Alan


Edited by Alan S, 24 March 2025 - 06:58 PM.


#2 betacygni

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Posted 25 March 2025 - 12:28 AM

I’m not sure where the origin of this started, but the amplification value will vary a bit depending on the binoviewer used, the focal plane of the eyepiece, distance between glasspath and binoviewer, etc. It’s quite easy to test the effective amplification in your particular setup. Without using the binoviewers use an eyepiece you use with them in mono mode and time how long a star drifts from edge to edge. Then reinstall the binoviewer/glasspath and do the same timing on the same star with the same eyepiece. The percentage faster of the time measurement is your real world amplification value of the glasspath for your setup.

Edited by betacygni, 25 March 2025 - 12:31 AM.

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#3 DJ N

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Posted 25 March 2025 - 12:49 AM

Hi guys

 

Went through a similar thing not long ago..... along the lines of Betacygni's suggestion. On my Maxbright II binoviewers with the 1.25 or 1.7 GPC threaded into the binoviewer (Quick change bayonet with Baader T2 mirror diagonal), I get the following

 

- 1.25x GPC, actual = 1.2x

- 1.7x GPC, actual = 1.45x

- 2.6x GPC, actual = 2.98x

 

Note, for the 2.6x GPC, this is actually threaded into the diagonal (binoviewer side)......

 

I recently purchased the Takahashi 1.5x Extender for my TSA-120, which works incredibly well with the three GPC's, so I will need to repeat the test to work out the actual 'extending' the 1.5x Extender achieves :-).

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

 

Daniel


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#4 Eddgie

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Posted 25 March 2025 - 02:12 PM

Over the years, there have been a at least 3 people that have measured the power of the GPCs, but two of them have been archived or had dead links. 

 

Here is one. 

 

https://www.cloudyni...ath-correctors/

 

In the same thread, you used to be able to see a Yahoo group spreadsheet where it had also been tested, but this is gone. Someone posted the measurements on the link above:

 

1.25x corrector - 1.2x
1.70x corrector - 1.5x
Barcon lens threaded to prism diagonal - 2.5x
Barcon lens + 1.25x corrector - 2.8x
Barcon lens + 1.7x corrector - 3.2x
Barcon used with extension tube - 2.9x (approximate, need another
extension tube to reach focus)
TV Big Barlow - 3.9x (used the Barcon extension tube to reach focus)

 

 

I have seen measurement that were even lower, but I have seen measured results that all vary between 1.45x and 1.55x.  


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#5 Eddgie

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Posted 25 March 2025 - 02:42 PM

I just thought I would add this, which in my mind, confirms that the GPC powers are different than stated. 

 

If you look at the Baader Maxbright (1) manual, it gives the light path savings for various GPCs. 

 

Here is the math.  If you divide the light path of the Baader Maxbright (110mm, and this is the same as the Maxbright II) by 1.25, you get 88mm. What this means is that the focal plane is now 88mm behind the GPC. Now in order to get the eyepiece to the focal plane, if the path length of the binoviewer is 110mm, you will have to rack the focser in. Since the origional focal plane was 110mm away from the front of the BV, you will have to rack the focuser in by (110-88 =) 22mm.  

 

If you look at the Maxbright Owner's Manaual, That conflicts with the MB owner's manual though, which says that the 1.25x when used with the Maxbright has a path length of 92mm.  That is a discrepancy because the Manual says 92mm, but the math says that for 1.25x, should give the Maxbright  and 88mm path length. 

 

So, let's see what happens when you divide the light path by 1.2x, which is the figure that some have measured. When yo do the same calculation, which is to divide 110mm by 1.2, you  get a light path length of 91.16mm,  which is consistent with the 92mm figure in the Baader manual for the Maxbright.

 

Let's do the same with the 1.7x GPC.  If you were to divide 110 by 1.7, you would get a light path length of 66.7mm.  If you subtract that from 110, this gives a 44mm light path saving, but my measurements show that the 1.7x GPC reduces the light path by 38mm.

 

Let's do the math based on a 1.5x power for the GPC.  110 / 1.5 gives you 73.3mm and if you subtract this from 110, it gives you 37.6mm of focuser travel saving, which is very close to what the actual light path savings are for the 1.7x (based on my own measurements), and is consistent with the commonly reported 1.5x figure.  

 

The bottom line is that I have measured the light path savings of both the 1.25x and the 1.7x, and my own calculations say that the 1.25x is working at 1.2x (18mm path reduction) and the 1.7x is working at 1.5x. (38mm path reduction).   

 

This is consistent with the measurements made by Astrojensen:

 

https://www.cloudyni...my-baader-gpcs/

 

Dan5209 also came up with similar measurements:

 

https://www.cloudyni...pcs/?p=11970051

 

There is a lot of discrepancy for the manual, and I have seen at least three reports of people measuring the powers, and all agree with about 1.5x for the 1.7x, and this corresponds with my own light path length measurements. I have see both 1.25x and 1.2x reported for the 1.25x GPC, but I get about 18mm of path savings so that indicates about 1.2x. 

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Edited by Eddgie, 25 March 2025 - 04:07 PM.

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#6 Alan S

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Posted 25 March 2025 - 03:50 PM

 

 

Let's do the math based on a 1.5x power for the GPC.  110 / 1.5 gives you 73.3mm and if you subtract this from 110, it gives you 37.6mm, which is very close to what the actual light path savings are for the 1.7x (based on my own measurements). 

 

The bottom line is that there are a lot of discrepancies in the manual and in the actual measurments, but I have measured the light path saving of the 1.7x as 38mm, so this is more consistent with the 1.5x figure.  

 

Thanks for this, and the math explanation as well, it was really instructional.  So for my own purposes (good enough for government work lol.gif ) I'll figure it is a 1.5x GPC!

 

Thanks also for the link to the remaining CN thread.

 

Best,

Alan



#7 Eddgie

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Posted 25 March 2025 - 05:20 PM

Let's talk about why this is probably the way it is, and my theory on the source of the confusion.

 

I think part of the problem is that the GPCs were created when Astro Physics was selling the Astro Physics Carl Zeiss Binoviewer..

 

The Astro Physics Carl Zeiss Binoviewer  had a meaningfully longer light path than the Maxbright and Maxbright II. I do not have the actual light path length, but Company 7 said that a telescope would need about 5" of focuser travel to work with the Astro Physics Carl Zeiss Binoviewer, so let's go with 127mm of light path length for the Carl Zeiss Binoviewer. 

 

If we took the 5" number, and we did the math, we would get (127 / 1.25 =) 106mm of path length. Let's do the maths. If the path length was 127mm and we divided this by 1.25x, we would get 106mm as the path length if the GPC was 1.25x, so about 21mm path length saving with the GPC, and that totals 127mm. What this means is that when used with the Carl Zeiss, the BV it was originated for, the 1.25x will be working at 1.25x. 

 

Now lets do the maths for the 1.7x.  The path length for the AP Carl Zeiss would be  (127 / 1.7x = ) 74.7mm (which is not that different from what the 77mm that the Maxbright manual says. If we added the 52.3 path length saving, we would get back to 127, so when used with the Carl Zeiss BV, the 1.7x GPC would give about 1.7x. 

 

I'm not a smart man, but I think a lot about things like this, and I believe that this is the reason why there is so much confusion is that the power figures were almost certainly based on the original application of the GPCs, which was the Carl Zeiss Binoviewer, which was imported by Roland Christian, the man that actually designed the GPCs. Since it has a longer light path, the power of the GPCs would expected to be higher than when used with the MB or MB II. 

 

I am linking the Company 7 web page and you can see that the light path amount of focuser travel is stated at about 5" and when you do the math, it lines up pretty well with the 1.25x and 1.7x GPCs working at their stated values only when used with the Carl Zeiss Binoviewer or with the same spacing as the Carl Zeiss has (The Televue Bino Vue and the Binotron also have about 5" of path length, so the GPCs would likely give the stated power when used with them as well).

 

I cannot say with certainty that any of this is absolutely correct, but the geometry here is pretty straight forward. This would explain why several measurements show the 1.25 working at 1.2x and the 1.7x working at 1.5x and why the actual light path savings with the MB II are more like 18mm and 38mm than as stated in the Maxbright manual, which seems to not match up to the actual values. If the powers were intended to be for the Carl Zeiss, we have the answer to the riddle. 

 

http://www.company7....ns/apbino.html 

 

 

 

I wish that Baader would publish accurate figures, but clearly there is a discrepancy between stated and measured figures, but using the 127mm light path gives a result closer to the published figures.  

 

You have my best thinking on this, but I am not an optical engineer. I hope that it is useful.

 

 

 

 

 


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#8 ris242

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Posted 25 March 2025 - 06:35 PM

the fact you can place them before or after a diagonal is also an issue regarding length.



#9 balcon3

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Posted 26 March 2025 - 01:13 AM

So if you placed an appropriate spacer between the gpc and the binoviewer, would you be able to achieve the stated magnifications with a MBII?



#10 tturtle

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Posted 26 March 2025 - 03:26 AM

Yes I believe so. I did this with a short refractor that would not come to focus with my binoviewer so I found a way to increase the distance between the diagonal and the GPC by 5 or 10 mm using some adapter rings so that it would focus. I think this means that I also increased the magnification slightly up from the 1.7 (1.5?) theoretical value. 
 

So if you placed an appropriate spacer between the gpc and the binoviewer, would you be able to achieve the stated magnifications with a MBII?


Edited by tturtle, 26 March 2025 - 03:30 AM.


#11 Eddgie

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Posted 26 March 2025 - 07:23 AM

So if you placed an appropriate spacer between the gpc and the binoviewer, would you be able to achieve the stated magnifications with a MBII?

It is a mixed bag and it is overly simplistic to say that it would work fine. 

 

Here is the reason.  Like a Barlow, the GPC power will increase if you move it further from the BV.

 

The negative about this is that the GPC differs from a Barlow in a major characteristic.  The GPC is designed to induce under-correted spherochromatism into the light path.

 

Imagine passing light through a prism.  When you do this, you get a rainbow. This is essentially what happens in the prisms of the binoviewer and this is why you get color error when you use a prism binoviewer in a fast Apo or refactor. Now because the distance that light travels inside the binoviewer, that "rainbow" never gets so big as to actually see it is a rainbow. Mostly you see color fringing.  If you took the prism out though, and let the light shine through and projected it on to a wall, because it has to travel more distance to diverge out into a fan, you see the full rainbow.  It is the distance that makes this happen.

 

The GPC was designed so that to function at its best, it is to be placed very near the front prism of the binoviewer. This position allows the rays to expand out just enough so that when they  pass through the binoviewer, those different colors will be offset by the positive over-correction of the colors inside of the binoviewer. In other words, the rays are fanned out when they enter, and they are re-converged inside of the binoviewer, so they come out color free.

 

Think about it this way.  As the rays leave the GPC, if you increase the distance between the GPC and the front prism, the result is that the rays from the GPC fan out more before they reach the prism, and cannot be fully re-combined on their trip through the prism.  This is not the exact mechanism, but I think it is useful to explain why placing of the GPC is important.

 

This means that for the best result, the GPC should be placed just before the BV, as specified by Baader. If you are using the micro-bayonet, then it should go inside the Bayonet.  If you are not using the micro-bayonet, it should go into the top of the mirror diagonal.  If you are using a 1.25" T2 prism diagonal, the GPC should go in front of the diagonal, because the first prism now is the prism in the diagonal.  

 

To be fair, if you make some space, the color correction may not suffer enough to easily see, but if you want the best possible correction, it should be used with no spacing between the binoviewer, and if using a T2 prism, it should be placed between the nose and the prism housing. 

 

This is why I recommend the T2 mirror for people using fast highly corrected Apo telescopes that wish to maintain the wideset field possible. If you need the  GPC, then putting it in front of the prism diagonal is the best place.  Remember, the light cone will always be slowed by the GPC, so this by itself helps lower the color error because the color leaves the first prism with much better correction and a slower focal ratio. 

 

 

Bottom line, you can raise the power by moving the GPC away from the binoviewer, but it lowers the correction and is not recommended unless you are moving it to the front of the prism diagonal. 

 

Newtonians typically don't need a GPC because in most cases, they need a powerful Barlow, and this simply slows the light cone down so that the Binoviewer introduces less color. Once the system gets slower than about f/9, color error from the prisms is not typically enough to see, but I still recommend a GPC or Barlow when using an SCT for planetary observing. Every tiny bit helps. 


Edited by Eddgie, 26 March 2025 - 07:35 AM.

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#12 Alan S

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Posted 26 March 2025 - 08:52 AM

 

This means that for the best result, the GPC should be placed just before the BV, as specified by Baader. If you are using the micro-bayonet, then it should go inside the Bayonet.  If you are not using the micro-bayonet, it should go into the top of the mirror diagonal.  If you are using a 1.25" T2 prism diagonal, the GPC should go in front of the diagonal, because the first prism now is the prism in the diagonal.  

This is interesting, and I will have to see if I can thread the GPC into my prism on the telescope side.  Baader does not make this clear in either the manual or the small placard that comes with the GPC, both of which show it threaded into the prism housing between it and the BV unit itself.  In other words, they do not differentiate between a mirror or prism.

 

I assume the orientation of the GPC needs to remain the same, so that the light travels through in the same direction.  And as you said, to be fair, using it as I have between the BV and prism on my scopes I have not noticed color error, although I have not looked critically for it.



#13 Eddgie

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Posted 26 March 2025 - 11:27 AM

This is interesting, and I will have to see if I can thread the GPC into my prism on the telescope side.  Baader does not make this clear in either the manual or the small placard that comes with the GPC, both of which show it threaded into the prism housing between it and the BV unit itself.  In other words, they do not differentiate between a mirror or prism.

 

I assume the orientation of the GPC needs to remain the same, so that the light travels through in the same direction.  And as you said, to be fair, using it as I have between the BV and prism on my scopes I have not noticed color error, although I have not looked critically for it.

To use the GPC in front of the prism, it is mounted between the prism body and the nose piece. 

 

This is only really important in scopes f/7 or faster. Even at f/7, using the prism without the GPC in front of it will cause some color error.

 

It you have these things, you can always experiment and see what works best for you.  During the daytime, focus on some sharp edge or some thin object like a power line wire at a distance of maybe 75 feet.  You should be able to see the change in the fringing. 

 

I have a 130mm f/7 FPL-53 Triplet. Using standard 2" diagonal and eyepieces, it is color free. With the 1.25" prism, even without a binoviewer, I could see color error. Putting the GPC in front of it brought the scope back to being color free. This scope is BV ready, so I can use a standard 2" diagonal and still reach focus. I don't use the GPC for most observing, but for color contrast doubles and for all solar system work, I use the GPC. 

 

As a side note, I have owned two binoviewer ready refractors, and for anyone ever looking to get a new refractor and that loves using both eyes, I highly recommend getting a binoviewer ready refractor. I can get a great 36x, 1.64 degree field of view using inexpensive Celstron XL 25mm eyepieces, and using a GPC and and 3-8mm zooms, I have used up to 400x, with zero color error. 


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#14 Alan S

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Posted 26 March 2025 - 01:54 PM

Good news is that my current refractors are f/7.5 (ish), and I have a BV ready f/9.6 refractor on order from TEC for my "golden" years of observing grin.gif



#15 ris242

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Posted 26 March 2025 - 03:17 PM

To use the GPC in front of the prism, it is mounted between the prism body and the nose piece. 

 

in order -  telescope / GPC / prism / bino / eyepieces    correct?



#16 Enyo

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Posted 26 March 2025 - 04:25 PM

I just ran a FOV test with my Baader Mark IV's with a 1.25 and 1.7 Glasspath and 2x Powermate.  Method was to look at a yard stick taped to the wall in the back yard and write down the width visible in the eyepiece. The Glasspaths were screwed into the nose of the binoviewer.  I did not bother testing with a prism or mirror diagonal. The scope was an AP Stowaway and the eyepieces were 16mm TMB monocentrics. Selected the monos as they are narrow FOV with very sharp edges. What I got was:

 

   1.21 for the 1.25 GP

   1.51 for the 1.7GP

   2.11 for the 2x Powermate

 

 


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#17 Astro-Remete

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Posted 27 March 2025 - 01:05 AM

Here you can see how the placement of the 1,7 GPC affects the magnification. If the order is scope/gpc/prism/bino, it gives a magnification 1.51, if scope/prism/gpc is screwed into the bino, it gives a magnification of 1.41-1.45.

Edited by Astro-Remete, 27 March 2025 - 01:06 AM.


#18 Eddgie

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Posted 27 March 2025 - 01:37 PM

in order -  telescope / GPC / prism / bino / eyepieces    correct?

This should give the best possible correction if you are using the prism diagonal. If you are using a mirror, then of course the GPC would go between the diagonal and the BV. 



#19 ris242

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Posted 27 March 2025 - 04:26 PM

This should give the best possible correction if you are using the prism diagonal. If you are using a mirror, then of course the GPC would go between the diagonal and the BV. 

when using a mirror diagonal can it be placed at the same spot like the prism?   scope / GPC / mirror diag...............

 

 

to add or remove from the prism...........I just release the clicklock and take everything off the scope in my hand............eyepieces attached..........unscrew the 2" end and switch.

 

From the other side of the diagonal its take off the eyepieces, decouple the bino from the diagonal, unscrew the GPC, screw in the new one, recouple and add the eyepieces. Thats a lot to do in the dark with gloves on. lol.



#20 balcon3

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Posted 27 March 2025 - 04:49 PM

when using a mirror diagonal can it be placed at the same spot like the prism?   scope / GPC / mirror diag...............

 

 

to add or remove from the prism...........I just release the clicklock and take everything off the scope in my hand............eyepieces attached..........unscrew the 2" end and switch.

 

From the other side of the diagonal its take off the eyepieces, decouple the bino from the diagonal, unscrew the GPC, screw in the new one, recouple and add the eyepieces. Thats a lot to do in the dark with gloves on. lol.

It would not be very effective at correcting the prism aberrations since it will be sitting far from the binoviewer prism. 


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