98 replies to this topic

[The_boots]

Nobody likes hanging out with the Cool Kids at the star party and say a big fancy word like "Achromatic" and have everyone look at you like a loser because you didn't say it right, so...

I've been watching Astronomy YouTube, and I noticed that some people(e.g. Ed Ting, Nico Carver) seem to pronounce "Achromatic" so that it sounds a lot like "Acrobatic".

But when I look at the word and what it means, I would have thought you would say it more like Ayy-chromatic. I mean, doesn't the word indicate that there have been attempts to make it have less (or no) chromatism.

Atypical-- Not typical. Achromatic-- not chromatic. Is that wrong?

Similarly, when people talk about apochromatics, they often pronounce it as "ayy-poe", but given that the prefix "apo" makes me think of apogee-- the farthest away from Earth. In this case, it would make apochromatic the farthest away from chromatism.

Apogee-- farthest from Earth, Apochromatic-- Farthest from chromatism.

 

What are the sources of these words, and is there even a technically correct pronunciation? 

[rob1986]

I use a short a for both

[Cotts]

Now pretend you are just learning English.  What fun that must be! 

 

Bough, cough, tough, through, thorough, hiccough....etc.

 

You might be inept.  But if you are competent are you 'ept'? 

 

Disgruntled person feels better the next day so he becomes 'gruntled'?  

 

Flammable and inflammable mean the same thing...why?  

 

English has such a history of borrowing words from a bewildering variety of languages that these weird happenstances are all too common.

 

Dave

[kathyastro]

And, like so many words in the English language, the "correct" pronunciation probably depends on which side of the Atlantic you are on.

[Starman1]

Reading pronunciations on-line:

 

achromatic is Achro-matic, pronounced as in acrophobia. 

 

apochromatic is either apo-chromatic as in apogee, as you mentioned, or uh-pock'-ruh-mat'-tic, where matic rhymes with attic.

The second pronunciation is rare, perhaps because most people just call them apos (as in apogee).

[sevenofnine]

It gets even more difficult with the names of stars. If you want to learn the correct way to pronounce Zubeneschamali (zoo-ben-ess-sha-MAY-lee) then get a copy of Terence Dickinson's "NIGHTWATCH" pages 36-37. It's a fun read besides 

 

https://www.amazon.c...,aps,262&sr=8-2.

 

There's a new 5th ed. available too 

Edited by sevenofnine, 25 March 2025 - 03:48 PM.

[PYeomans]

And, like so many words in the English language, the "correct" pronunciation probably depends on which side of the Atlantic you are on.

Or which side of the Mason/Dickson line hang out in. 

[Starman1]

Constellation pronunciations:

https://en.wikipedia..._constellations

Star pronunciations:

https://www.space.co...tion-guide.html

 

Some of them make no sense in any language.  Just know that these are "guidelines" and that considerable variation in pronunciation exists.

And anyone who studied Latin or Greek would laugh at some of the pronunciations.

And some just sound better in Italian, LOL.

 

BTW, Zubeneschamali's next to last syllable is usually pronounced 'mah', not 'may' (final syllables like the country Mali), but this is just one small example of pronunciation variability.

Spica, for instance, is spee'-kuh (almost all languages except English), spike'-uh (English), and spick'-uh (Latin, Greek) depending on where you are and who you talk to.

Edited by Starman1, 25 March 2025 - 04:16 PM.

[TOMDEY]

Lots of words are like that. February --- here in the USA, something like 90% of people pronounce it incorrectly "Feb-you- wary". And those KardiaMobile vogue EKG cards --- the pitch man and voices keep mispronouncing Fibrillation as "Frib-ah-lation. I'm sure every cardiologist subjected to that commercial cringes every time it comes across. (At least the pitch man starts with, "I'm not a doctor; I'm not even in a doctor's office!") I'm sure the British note that we USA blokes mispronounce and misspell every other word. On top of that --- half our kids are now both functionally illiterate and ilnumerate. Our days seem to be numbered --- with hardly anyone remaining capable of counting them down!    Tom

[The_boots]

 

Disgruntled person feels better the next day so he becomes 'gruntled'?  

 

I have absolutely used the word "Gruntled". When my wife is upset, I often ask her how we can regruntle her. That's usually the point where she hits me.

 

But honestly, all this is Greek in origin, right? Anybody speak Greek? How would an ancient Greek pronounce it?

[rob1986]

Its not like brits can spell either. Their standard is just copied from the french and does violence to both pronounciation and the source languages.

Besides, they also follow Webster when it suits them. (A instead of Ae.)

[A Star Geezer]

And, like so many words in the English language, the "correct" pronunciation probably depends on which side of the Atlantic you are on.

It  also depends on which state your in. Makes our language interesting

[Dave Mitsky]

The name Zubeneschamali (pronunciation: /ˌzuːbənˌɛʃəˈmeɪli/) is derived from the Arabic al-zubānā al-šamāliyy, meaning “the northern claw.” It has also been spelled Zuben Eschamali, Zubenelschemali, Zubenesch, Zuben el Chamali, and Zubenelg. In early Greek astronomy, Libra stars represented the Chelae, the claws of Scorpius, and the name refers to the star’s position in Scorpius. The southern claw of the scorpion was represented by Zubenelgenubi, Libra’s second brightest star.

 

The name Zubeneschamali was approved by the International Astronomical Union’s (IAU) Working Group on Star Names (WGSN) on August 21, 2016.

 

https://www.star-fac...zubeneschamali/

[KBHornblower]

It  also depends on which state your in. Makes our language interesting

It can depend on which New York City borough you are in.  A friend of mine who grew up near New York said that Brooklyn and the Bronx, just a few miles apart, still sound different.

[TOMDEY]

Just thought of another one > "Especially" recent development --- about half of the ~talking heads~ on TV mispronounce it "eck-specially". Throw in a massive dose of vocal fry and the distraction from what they are apparently trying to convey becomes complete.    Tom

[areyoukiddingme]

Useful lesson

 

https://www.youtube....rts/7BRn4kYxuE4

[Tony Flanders]

For whatever reason, just about everybody says AK-romatic. But if I heard you saying the letter A followed by kromatic, I would think "What an interesting pronunciation; that makes a lot of sense. I wonder if that was ever the normal way to say it?"

 

After hanging out with a bunch of major players in the astronomy community, I'm pretty relaxed about pronunciation. Is it VEE-guh or VAY-guh? A survey of editors at Sky & Telescope (of which I was one at the time) was split precisely 50/50. Most people say GLOB-ular cluster, but a substantial minority, including some big names, say GLOBE-ular. And so on.

[Jon Isaacs]

For whatever reason, just about everybody says AK-romatic. But if I heard you saying the letter A followed by kromatic, I would think "What an interesting pronunciation; that makes a lot of sense. I wonder if that was ever the normal way to say it?"

 

After hanging out with a bunch of major players in the astronomy community, I'm pretty relaxed about pronunciation. Is it VEE-guh or VAY-guh? A survey of editors at Sky & Telescope (of which I was one at the time) was split precisely 50/50. Most people say GLOB-ular cluster, but a substantial minority, including some big names, say GLOBE-ular. And so on.

 

I consider Tony along with Michael Covington my GOTO resources.  

 

If you need help pronouncing the slang for a Catadioptric telescope, I can help with that.  Typically though, there is not much disagreement on the pronunciation of "cat."

 

Jon 

[EsaT]

Yeah, English language pronouncing is total mess with no head nor tail.

 

Its not like brits can spell either. Their standard is just copied from the french and does violence to both pronounciation and the source languages.

Only French?
https://aeon.co/essa...nd-inconsistent


 

Now pretend you are just learning English.  What fun that must be! 

There's one word I would tell to who ever made pronouncing "rules" for English.
It shouldn't need translation...

[rob1986]

Yeah, English language pronouncing is total mess with no head nor tail.


Only French?
https://aeon.co/essa...nd-inconsistent



There's one word I would tell to who ever made pronouncing "rules" for English.
It shouldn't need translation...

Webster prefered a simple and academic spelling, so long as it still facilitated reading

The brit who preceeded him by half a century or so prefered french.

If you look it through, most deviations follow that rule

Edited by rob1986, 26 March 2025 - 01:53 PM.

[Tony Flanders]

Webster prefered a simple and academic spelling, so long as it still facilitated reading

Webster invented a bunch of spelling rules out of thin air, wildly contrary to prevailing usage, in a vain attempt to make English pronunciation more rational.

The history of how English pronunciation got so weird is quite interesting. It all starts with the fact that English is a pidgin that evolved to allow speakers of German-based Old English to communicate with the French-speaking Vikings who conquered them in 1066.

 

If you go by number of words in the dictionary, far more are descended from French and Latin than from German. But the words descended from German (like "the") are used much more frequently.

[WillR]

Lots of words are like that. February --- here in the USA, something like 90% of people pronounce it incorrectly "Feb-you- wary". And those KardiaMobile vogue EKG cards --- the pitch man and voices keep mispronouncing Fibrillation as "Frib-ah-lation. I'm sure every cardiologist subjected to that commercial cringes every time it comes across. (At least the pitch man starts with, "I'm not a doctor; I'm not even in a doctor's office!") I'm sure the British note that we USA blokes mispronounce and misspell every other word. On top of that --- half our kids are now both functionally illiterate and ilnumerate. Our days seem to be numbered --- with hardly anyone remaining capable of counting them down!    Tom

I gotta say, feb-you-wary and even worse lie-berry (for library) drive me nuts, yet I see educated people mispronouncing these all the time.

[TOMDEY]

I gotta say, feb-you-wary and even worse lie-berry (for library) drive me nuts, yet I see educated people mispronouncing these all the time.

And grammatical mistakes like talking heads and politicians most often saying e.g., "He gave them to you and I." Maybe it doesn't matter all that much... but still grates. It just ain't funny.    Tom

[StarBurger]

Being a Brit in the USA for 23 years now and married to a lovely Connecticut (Coneticut) girl every day brings usage and pronunciation differences to the for. It works both ways.

Wife: "What's a fortnight?"  She has never heard of this.

Me: "Wilkes Barre" (somewhere in PA ?) is pronounced "Wilksberry".  Wife disagreed.

Wife on the city in Turkey is "Eastanbul"

In spite of the fact that I pronounce Pleiades "Ply-adees" she insists on "PLee-adees". She could be right.

While driving around the UK together visiting Norwich I had to insist we pronounced it "Norrich". Later at Ipswich, based on the same logic she claimed I must call it "Ipsich". No--it's "Ipswich".

For me Tuesday is "t-yoos-day". For her it's "Toos-day".

Thank goodness we didn't visit Bicester.

As for Beetlejuice, I don't try to be so bold or pretentious as to try "Betel-geuse".

Yeah, it's "Beatle juice". Why not?

[rob1986]

Webster invented a bunch of spelling rules out of thin air, wildly contrary to prevailing usage, in a vain attempt to make English pronunciation more rational.

Yes and no. Most of his thin air rules were accepted on both sides of the pond. Second "modern" british spelling was not nearly as "accepted" as brits want to make you think it was. U didnt exist and s and f shared an indistiguishable character! It had been published not long before the revolution and was having no less teething pains than metric at the turn of the 20th century.
To say that it represented accepted spelling is downright wrong