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Preferences on order for Milky Way panels

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#1 balykos

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Posted 28 March 2025 - 01:23 PM

hello,

 

I'm planning a trip later in the spring and would like to use something like a APS-C DSLR with a 35mm lens for a composite image of the landscape with rising MW (northern hemisphere). probably cover 90 degrees horizontally over 2 rows of 7-8 vertical panels. I will be using a star tracker.

 

Since this will be my first time, I wanted to see if there is a preferred order to shoot the panels?

I was thinking of starting from the lower right hand side of the MW core since it will dip and work the bottom row all the way to the left. Then I would raise my camera and work left to right for the top row.

 

does this make sense? am I overthinking this?



#2 BQ Octantis

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 05:11 AM

For landscape + MW, I would start from the horizon and work my way up to catch things before they dip. Away from the horizon it doesn't matter much at all—assuming you're skilled at stitching panoramas…

 

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Cheers,

 

BQ



#3 balykos

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 07:11 AM

Thanks BQ, this will be my first time attempting a stitched image. I'll eventually figure out the post processing part but for now I want to make sure I capture the data correctly since I will only have one night at the location.



#4 BQ Octantis

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 10:35 AM

That seems a little high risk…how much overlap you need will be software-specific. My Milky Way core panorama had far too much overlap (though I was just doing a sky survey that I wound up stitching). My full-sky pano was just 5 panels, but it required manual star registration because of the extreme perspective and barrel distortion at 8mm. I'd try some backyard frames to figure out what you need…

 

BQ



#5 balykos

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 04:49 PM

Agreed on the risk part! I was thinking 30-40% overlap - using NINA framing assistant for visualization purposes - most likely I will try using Hugin for the stitching

 

Weather has been horrible lately but I plan on doing a dry run locally next month and iron out any glitches before my trip in May



#6 BQ Octantis

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Posted 29 March 2025 - 05:22 PM

I used Hugin for all of the above. It's fairly forgiving; 30-40% overlap is good.

 

Cheers,

 

BQ


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#7 erictheastrojunkie

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Posted 31 March 2025 - 09:52 PM

For landscape + MW, I would start from the horizon and work my way up to catch things before they dip. Away from the horizon it doesn't matter much at all—assuming you're skilled at stitching panoramas…

 

 

Cheers,

 

BQ

In the northern hemisphere you want to do the opposite, start high and end low, start north and end south, assuming you are doing a panorama earlier in the year. You are unlikely to face a scenario where the milky way core is "setting" earlier in the year, if you were imaging in, say, August or later then yes I'd start south and image north, start low and then image high. When imaging earlier in the year you want to start higher so your camera gear is not pointing directly up or close to it, which creates bigger imbalances on a tracking mount and exacerbates tracking errors, plus it makes frame to frame adjustments more difficult and getting overlap correct harder. Starting higher means that you can capture areas of the sky before they get above your camera orientation being >30-45 degrees elevated. Starting in the north means you image into the rising core, which again keeps your camera orientation/elevation lower and weight balance/centering motions easier to handle on the tracking mount. If you start south, imaging the core area first, then as you move north the arm of the milky way rises higher and higher into the sky, leaving your camera pointing higher and making tracking riskier, etc. 

 

I've shot hundreds of Milky Way nightscape panoramas on a tracking mount, I've kept a gallery of roughly 100 of my better ones with acquisition details and equipment information here:

https://www.flickr.c...77720302597732/

 

I've shot full arch panoramas up to 85mm on a full frame sensor, doing tracked exposures of 2-3 minutes, it's exceptionally difficult and time consuming and not just the acquisition. The post processing requirements at longer focal lengths is also very difficult, doing panoramas at longer focal lengths like 85mm+ can result in a single image having 50+ exposures needing to be stitched. This was a panorama with a Nikon Z7 and 85mmS, tracked, roughly 35 exposures for the sky and another 30 exposures for the foreground, with around 25% overlap between frames, no stacking:

 

50347860082_5ae0bb8713_b.jpg

 

Honestly if you've never done a tracked panorama I would definitely not recommend starting with a 35mm on an APS-C sensor, your margin for error is slim, you have to be very efficient with your time/acquisition sequence so sky/earth rotation doesn't result in stitching errors and foreground alignment problems, plus if you are doing 2+ minute tracked exposures it'll probably take you upwards of 2 hours or more to setup, do all your sky exposures (and any repeats necessary), then do all your foreground exposures, and take down. In that amount of time things, like clouds and weather, can change rapidly. It might start clear and next thing you know you're on your 10th exposure/panel and clouds develop over the core spoiling the whole thing, or the wind kicks up strong and your tracking goes to crap, or it starts getting light/into astro twilight, etc etc. On an APS-C camera I'd highly recommend starting with a 20mm or 24mm lens for first time tracked panoramas, limit yourself to 5-15 exposures for the sky with 20-30% overlap. It'll also make doing your foreground much easier and you'll still get a good amount of detail. I've been doing this stuff for a long long time now, I've taught many many workshops and individuals, spoken at conferences, and I've seen far more people toss the tracker aside for nightscapes than have had repeatable successes with it. Starting with a >50mm equivalent FOV is really tough and probably not going to result in a high chance of success out of the gates, starting with a 20-30mm focal length FOV for a tracked pano will increase your chances of success while still getting a good image and reducing the risk profile associated with the more complex setup. There is a lot of stuff to remember and execute when doing tracked panoramas, to this day I still screw up, forget things, fudge or even forget exposures/panels. 

 

IMO 30-40% overlap is too much if you are imaging at focal lengths above 20mm, especially on an APS-C sensor, for a tracked pano. The reason being you use a tracking mount to give you better SNR via longer exposures, more detail, and better image quality by shooting your equipment at "better" settings. That means stopping down your lens a little bit to sharpen it up, reduce aberrations. Normally you want more overlap for a pano when you are shooting a lens wide open because the best looking stars/most detail you can resolve is going to be a smaller portion of the frame, with a stopped down lens you are increasing that area of the frame that has good stars/good detail. This reduces the need for more overlap. The problem is that when you do tracked multi-row, sweeping panoramas of 90+ degrees you risk missing a portion of the sky during all the frame to frame movements, so you have to be really aware of your alignment, your acquisition sequence, and how many/much adjustment(s) you've made during the process. These days I use an indexing rotator as well as a combination of Z and V brackets to take the guess work out of the alignment and frame to frame adjustments, this is what my setup looks like now with some components that I've personally designed and 3D printed: 

 

475472362_10101091858888124_146290404735

 

Anyways, I could talk forever about this stuff, I'd be happy to answer more questions. 


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#8 balykos

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Posted 01 April 2025 - 12:51 PM

Wow, thank you for the detailed write-up. you advice makes perfect sense. I just need a bit of time to digest it and may take you up on your offer to answer questions if I have them

 

 

I'm definitely not attempting a full panorama. I was hoping to do something with 2 rows for the sky and 1 row for the ground. I've done single frames with my sigma 10-20 which has horrible stars in the corners and I have access to a canon 24-105 which is not perfect but not too bad either. I was thinking of buying the Tamron 35mm and since I haven't worked with this focal length much, I was asking my questions here



#9 gpom

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Posted 05 April 2025 - 01:44 PM

Anyways, I could talk forever about this stuff, I'd be happy to answer more questions. 

Awesome write up, thank you! I want to try my first milky way panorama this summer. I've done some 14mm wide field shots, plus some tracked 40mm shots but never tried a panorama. Right now I have a full frame Nikon D780 and a Sigma 40mm f/1.4 lens has wonderful stars across the frame wide open.

 

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of Z or V bracket should I get to use with my skyguider pro and benro ball head? Or should I ditch the ball head for something that would work better? I'm also curious what to do with the skyguider pro when moving between panels. Is it fine to polar align, point camera at first panel, start tracking, then just move to the next panel when ready? Or do you need to reset the tracker back to a "home" position with the counterweight straight down after every panel?
 



#10 erictheastrojunkie

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Posted 07 April 2025 - 02:28 PM

Awesome write up, thank you! I want to try my first milky way panorama this summer. I've done some 14mm wide field shots, plus some tracked 40mm shots but never tried a panorama. Right now I have a full frame Nikon D780 and a Sigma 40mm f/1.4 lens has wonderful stars across the frame wide open.

 

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of Z or V bracket should I get to use with my skyguider pro and benro ball head? Or should I ditch the ball head for something that would work better? I'm also curious what to do with the skyguider pro when moving between panels. Is it fine to polar align, point camera at first panel, start tracking, then just move to the next panel when ready? Or do you need to reset the tracker back to a "home" position with the counterweight straight down after every panel?
 

I currently use the MSM V and Z brackets, the issue that you'll face is getting brackets sturdy enough to support that weight. A quick google search shows that the combo weighs 4.5lbs! Just for reference, my camera setup (the Sigma Fp and Sigma Contemporary 35mm/65mm lenses) weighs a combined 1.5lbs. I tried various Z-brackets back when I was using DSLR's and then the Nikon Z6 and Z7, including with the Sigma 40mm, I honestly couldn't find one that worked reliably well with all that weight and it's part of the reason why I went with the Sigma Fp and the Contemporary lenses. These days I leave my entire setup fully assembled, polar wedge on the tripod and the rest (MSM Nomad -> V Bracket -> Indexing Rotator -> camera ring + camera/lens) is already combined in my bag. This is what my setup looks like and how it functions when fully assembled:

https://www.youtube....rts/Nnlj4qBFPJE

 

I personally detest ballheads when it comes to equipment for tracking mount based nightscape imaging, they are imprecise tools prone to vibrations and mucking about in the night trying to get alignment correct and overlap between shots done properly. I tried a whole bunch of ballheads over the years, the good ones are heavy, there's not many good ones, and they are quite expensive compared to other tools like 2-way tilt/pan heads and v/z brackets. The one single use for a ballhead that could be ok is using it to create a level platform off the tracker (where I use a V-bracket), that position isn't manipulated much after it's setup. If you can't find a good V-/Z-bracket then a 2-way pan/tilt head is the next best solution. 

 

My V-bracket (attached to the mount) has an adjustment screw on it that allows me to "reset" the position that way I'm not having to fiddle with the mount itself. I have found that when I do 2 minute exposures I reset the V-bracket back to it's level position every 4-5 exposures. After that length of time (around 10-15 minutes) the rotation of the mount brings the payload so far off-center and imbalanced that you begin having tracking issues. This will depend very much on the setup though, with a D780 and Sigma Art 40mm you are going to have a huge honking, long, and heavy setup on the mount and you may only be able to go 2-3 exposures before having to make it level and balanced again. When I was imaging with the Art 40mm on my Z7 with the FTZ adapter I found that I needed to the counterweight for my Star Adventurer to be really efficient with the whole process. That meant I could go longer without having to reset the position and could get more exposures before re-leveling everything. 

 

There's no one-size-fits all solution to this topic, I suppose that's why I like it so much. My setups have evolved tremendously over the years, from DSLR's and big heavy lenses to cooled astro cameras adapter to smaller lenses controlled with an ASIAir. They all have their pros and cons and it's up to each individual to decide what works best. Here's a bunch of different imgur albums with various setups I've done going back to 2018 if you want some ideas/input:

 

https://imgur.com/ga...e-setup-L17tbeo

https://imgur.com/ga...s-setup-nKePnW5

https://imgur.com/ga...o-setup-AJ0vtLV

https://imgur.com/ga...er-mini-v6zvMIU

https://imgur.com/ga...r-setup-948I6TG

https://imgur.com/ga...er-mini-zYBVxwV



#11 gpom

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Posted 07 April 2025 - 03:38 PM

Wow I very much appreciate all of the information! You are correct, the nikon D780 and sigma 40mm lens are indeed heavy. I had both before I got into astro and it's nice equipment so it still gets used.

I've had success with using that setup and a counterweight bar on the skyguider pro but that was not panoramas. I see how a nice lightweight camera and lens like yours would be way easier!

Since the 40mm is f/1.4, I may just try to do an untracked panorama. With the more conservative rule of 300 I can do 7 second exposures. It's probably a better place to start to learn what I'm doing haha.

Again thanks for the info and if you don't mind, I may reach out in the future for more questions!

#12 erictheastrojunkie

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Posted 07 April 2025 - 03:54 PM

Wow I very much appreciate all of the information! You are correct, the nikon D780 and sigma 40mm lens are indeed heavy. I had both before I got into astro and it's nice equipment so it still gets used.

I've had success with using that setup and a counterweight bar on the skyguider pro but that was not panoramas. I see how a nice lightweight camera and lens like yours would be way easier!

Since the 40mm is f/1.4, I may just try to do an untracked panorama. With the more conservative rule of 300 I can do 7 second exposures. It's probably a better place to start to learn what I'm doing haha.

Again thanks for the info and if you don't mind, I may reach out in the future for more questions!

For a long time Evan McKay out in New Zealand was doing mostly untracked Milky Way panos with the Art 40mm, after I started using it when it first came out I highly recommended it to him since it could be shot at f1.4 and has a massive aperture area at 40mm. I can't recall if he's still using the lens, but you might look back on his stuff (his instagram handle is @galactic_kiwi) if you want to see what's possible untracked wise. You can always do untracked and stack exposures for better SNR, it adds complexity in terms of post processing, but reduces complexity in terms of imaging without a tracking mount. My opinion on Milky Way nightscape imaging is that doing longer focal length tracked panoramas (like 50mm+ focal lengths) is as hard as it gets in terms of night photography, there are so many things to remember and execute efficiently because a single panorama can take hours, if you don't have your timing down and execution down you can easily screw up the whole shot. 



#13 gpom

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Posted 09 April 2025 - 08:11 AM

For a long time Evan McKay out in New Zealand was doing mostly untracked Milky Way panos with the Art 40mm, after I started using it when it first came out I highly recommended it to him since it could be shot at f1.4 and has a massive aperture area at 40mm. I can't recall if he's still using the lens, but you might look back on his stuff (his instagram handle is @galactic_kiwi) if you want to see what's possible untracked wise. You can always do untracked and stack exposures for better SNR, it adds complexity in terms of post processing, but reduces complexity in terms of imaging without a tracking mount. My opinion on Milky Way nightscape imaging is that doing longer focal length tracked panoramas (like 50mm+ focal lengths) is as hard as it gets in terms of night photography, there are so many things to remember and execute efficiently because a single panorama can take hours, if you don't have your timing down and execution down you can easily screw up the whole shot. 

Great thanks I will check him out! I understand when you say that a big milky way panorama is as tough as it gets haha. At some point, I'd like to get the camera and lens working with my ASIAIR and AM5 mount, then I'd think I could just set up a mosaic and let it run automatically...

 

I hope to get to my dark sky site at some point in the next 2-3 months to give the panorama a try. I will certainly have my deep space rig there as well taking pictures so that the trip isn't a complete waste when I fail miserably at the panorama lol.gif

 

I guess last question, if I try this milky way panorama with the 40mm and full frame Nikon, how may rows are necessary to get a good image after stitching? I'd assume 2 is a bare minimum with decent overlap but 3 is probably the correct number




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