54 replies to this topic

[starfinder123123]

In have been watching the latest developments in trade war with China and there are some interesting points. Chinese are making videos exposing the luxury brands being made in China then shipped to Europe to have logos put on them and be sold for a lot of money. Sometime the price we’re paying is 90% markup from the price it costs to make it. A $100 item actually costs $10 or less.
This made me think how much are we overpaying for eyepieces and other items made in China? Even when item says made in Taiwan or Japan it is hard to be sure that that is true since they often buy things from China, assemble it somewhere else and call it made in that other country. It is mind blowing how much we are being robbed!

[scotsman328i]

In have been watching the latest developments in trade war with China and there are some interesting points. Chinese are making videos exposing the luxury brands being made in China then shipped to Europe to have logos put on them and be sold for a lot of money. Sometime the price we’re paying is 90% markup from the price it costs to make it. A $100 item actually costs $10 or less.
This made me think how much are we overpaying for eyepieces and other items made in China? Even when item says made in Taiwan or Japan it is hard to be sure that that is true since they often buy things from China, assemble it somewhere else and call it made in that other country. It is mind blowing how much we are being robbed!

I agree, we have been fooled for decades upon decades. Now that China has exposed these corporations, I wonder what now? Will there be international lawsuits? Will people around the globe boycott any continued purchases now they know they are being lied to? It’s another Godawful mess to add to the economical situation. 

[triplemon]

If you buy direct you can bypass most of the brand markups and reselling cost.

But then you're up to yourself dealing with product research, quality variations, returns and warranty, aka "customer service". So that is really what you pay for when you choose to spend your discretionary spending money on such. But e-commerce does definitively make it possible to choose to go either route, for anybody that knows to use a web browser.

 

I bought plenty of sub $10 perfectly good Plossls all the way up to sub $200 high end UWA eyepieces that way. No complaints.

Edited by triplemon, 14 April 2025 - 12:00 PM.

[Max-OP]

Starfinder,

The market determines pricing. If people are willing to pay a certain price for a certain item, then pricing reaches equilibrium. If demand exceeds supply, prices increase, just as if supply exceeds demand the opposite happens. Capitalism is very efficient. This is how market economies work. 

It will be interesting to see how the tariff wars play out. We may end up with lower astronomy equipment pricing if China capitulates. We shall see.

[starfinder123123]

If you buy direct you can bypass most of the brand markups and reselling cost.

But then you're up to yourself dealing with product research, quality variations, returns and warranty, aka "customer service". But e-commerce does definitively make it possible for anybody that knows to use a web browser.

 

I bought plenty of sub $10 perfectly good Plossls all the way up to sub $200 high end UWA eyepieces that way. No complaints.

yes, this is the way. You have to research and find the items that are branded differently and cost way less. Like Maxivision eyepieces used to be very afordable.

[starfinder123123]

I agree, we have been fooled for decades upon decades. Now that China has exposed these corporations, I wonder what now? Will there be international lawsuits? Will people around the globe boycott any continued purchases now they know they are being lied to? It’s another Godawful mess to add to the economical situation. 

Let's hope there is a backlash.

The crazy part is that the brand name items are made in the same companies that make Chinese knockoffs! 

And people buying the ones with the brand name tag were telling other people how dumb they are and how much better their product is.

I mean, there was always a lot of talk here about the worth of the eyepiece and its performance.

With this, the conversations might look different from now on. Svbony or other Chinese eyepiece are looking better and better in light of this new info.

I got TMB eyepiece on Aliexpress and they are great.

I wonder what other eyepieces from China are great but people don't know because a few loudmouths here are always monopolizing these conversations.

Give me some great Chinese eyepieces that are good price too.

[triplemon]

If demand exceeds supply, prices increase, just as if supply exceeds demand the opposite happens. Capitalism is very efficient.

I would say there is more to it.
To get there this requires buyers actively select the offering with the best price/performance. So they need to be educated and motivated to do this work.

If there is enough of a crowd without the ability to a s s e s s (dear real-time language censoring - this is not a four letter word that needs to be replaced by a set of stars) what they truely get, to say "no thank you" and free themselves from peer pressure to have the most expensive offering out there, truely overpriced products will continueto be offered. As there is simply a market for those, diamond jewelry is IMO another stark example.

 

This can happen in parallel to all other market dynamics.

Edited by triplemon, 14 April 2025 - 06:28 PM.

[scotsman328i]

Let's hope there is a backlash.

The crazy part is that the brand name items are made in the same companies that make Chinese knockoffs! 

And people buying the ones with the brand name tag were telling other people how dumb they are and how much better their product is.

I mean, there was always a lot of talk here about the worth of the eyepiece and its performance.

With this, the conversations might look different from now on. Svbony or other Chinese eyepiece are looking better and better in light of this new info.

I got TMB eyepiece on Aliexpress and they are great.

I wonder what other eyepieces from China are great but people don't know because a few loudmouths here are always monopolizing these conversations.

Give me some great Chinese eyepieces that are good price too.

This is the scary part. People have been living a lie for decades. The same ones that were the authority on products are now a laughing stock with their exposed corporations. Now no one knows what to believe anymore! We are going to find out next that Takahashis are made in El Salvador with Japanese stickers all over them and that China had industrial rolls of “Made in the USA” stickers that they’ve been using on their products for years. Seriously, I don’t know what to believe anymore after hearing that news yesterday. 

[starfinder123123]

This is the scary part. People have been living a lie for decades. The same ones that were the authority on products are now a laughing stock with their exposed corporations. Now no one knows what to believe anymore! We are going to find out next that Takahashis are made in El Salvador with Japanese stickers all over them and that China had industrial rolls of “Made in the USA” stickers that they’ve been using on their products for years. Seriously, I don’t know what to believe anymore after hearing that news yesterday.

Exactly!
A lot of talking heads are now in a pickle, unsure what the reality is, just like you said.
This reminds me of those “Made in the USA” signs that had a “Made in China” stickers on the back.

[scotsman328i]

Exactly!
A lot of talking heads are now in a pickle, unsure what the reality is, just like you said.
This reminds me of those “Made in the USA” signs that had a “Made in China” stickers on the back.

I know, right? Now that the tables have turned, we may discover that China was involved in a lot more than what we ever dreamed they could’ve been. That’s right! Also these political hats. ‘VOTE FOR ME! VOTE ALL AMERICAN!” (in the back brim ‘Made in China’). 

Edited by scotsman328i, 14 April 2025 - 01:13 PM.

[SeattleScott]

I would argue that people buy designer brands because of the logo. They are a status symbol. Like a co-worker who looked at buying a fully loaded VW but bought a Mercedes instead. He acknowledged the VW had all the same bells and whistles for thousands of dollars less, and the Mercedes had a worse warranty and is more expensive to service. But he bought the Mercedes anyway because it would make him look richer to other drivers on the road. People buy luxury brands because they are expensive, not in spite of it. Like a former boss who asked his wife what she wanted for her birthday. She told him to go to Nordstrom and buy the most expensive purse they had. She didn’t care about features or functionality. She just wanted an expensive purse. That’s a different dynamic than stargazing that is done mostly in the dark. And the telescope market is about 0.000001% the size of the handbag/purse market.

Pentax eyepieces are components made in Japan and assembled in Philippines. But otherwise the eyepieces are generally made in the country of manufacture. Frankly, the glass is all I really care about anyway. I don’t really care if the barrel is made in China or wherever as long as the glass is made where it says it is made.

The truth is that China does compete with premium brands. Morpheus compete directly with XWs, SWs, Delites and Delos. And guess what? They cost about the same amount. You could argue they offer a bit more value; 76 AFOV instead of 62-72 for about the same price. But they are more similar than different than the premium brands.

Ultimately this feels like much ado about nothing.

[sixela]

Sometime the price we’re paying is 90% markup from the price it costs to make it. A $100 item actually costs $10 or less.

Not that relevant for astro gear — these are not “luxury items”.

And as someone’s pointed out, you’d expect to pay more for an item than it takes to make it — companies need to have gross margin to cover cost of operations and R&D and still make a profit.

Here in Europe for small generic items we do see a markup of 100%-200%; even that is not unreasonable given the cost of sale of, say, a Cheshire that costs $10 to make.

Edited by sixela, 14 April 2025 - 02:36 PM.

[Battlestamps]

In have been watching the latest developments in trade war with China and there are some interesting points. Chinese are making videos exposing the luxury brands being made in China then shipped to Europe to have logos put on them and be sold for a lot of money. Sometime the price we’re paying is 90% markup from the price it costs to make it. A $100 item actually costs $10 or less.
This made me think how much are we overpaying for eyepieces and other items made in China? Even when item says made in Taiwan or Japan it is hard to be sure that that is true since they often buy things from China, assemble it somewhere else and call it made in that other country. It is mind blowing how much we are being robbed!

These are items of conspicuous consumption. Purses, shoes, watches - things to be seen with, to flaunt. This is nothing new. 

 

Eyepieces hardly fall into this category.

[25585]

Sometimes own-brand, if its a store brand, can be cheaper. For example, the cheapest Ultra Flat range prices are those from First Light Optics "Stellalyra" label, and Altair's "Ultra Flat" own-label. The most expensive was Meade UHD, and in between APM Ultra Flat Field and Celestron Ultima Edge. Those examples are UK market, all sold here.

 

I expect Sky Rover, KUO's own brand, and other small ones will be less expensive, but buying international might incur added taxes etc anywhere depending where you live, cancelling out purchase price saving.

[SeattleScott]

I think one also has to distinguish between making purses and shoes versus eyepieces. There is a different level of skill and precision required when making fine optical glass.

 

For example:

https://www.imaging-...i-glass-factory

 

That type of skill and precision costs money, period.

But yeah, mostly the real issue is the difference between status symbols and eyepieces. Very different things. Few people actually put those Powered by Televue stickers on their telescopes.

[starfinder123123]

Oh I do think the eyepieces are kind of status symbol in our small circle. And for many they are not luxury but I can name brands that are loved by some because they are not from China and as such is ok to pay a lot of money for it.
Better not go down this road.
Al I am saying is that we might have been taken advantage of while buying branded eyepieces, and that we cannot know where they really come from since companies use shell companies to do all sorts of things.

[John Huntley]

Forums like this one are a great place to find out where things are made and what brandings offer the best value for what is the same item.

 

Don / Starman1 is often posting lists of the various brandings used for what is the same eyepiece, for example.

[SeattleScott]

Oh I do think the eyepieces are kind of status symbol in our small circle. And for many they are not luxury but I can name brands that are loved by some because they are not from China and as such is ok to pay a lot of money for it.
Better not go down this road.
Al I am saying is that we might have been taken advantage of while buying branded eyepieces, and that we cannot know where they really come from since companies use shell companies to do all sorts of things.

We know there are certain eyepieces that are available under different labels. So sometimes the same eyepiece is available from the same vendor under different labels at different prices. This is well known and understood. Sort of like AT and Stellarvue hyperwides. Many times the eyepieces look similar. Often times they have been compared and found to have similar performance with the same field stop and AFOV, etc.

That being said, there isn’t another source under another label for Televue, Pentax, Nikon, Morpheus, etc.

[Mike W]

Oh I do think the eyepieces are kind of status symbol in our small circle. And for many they are not luxury but I can name brands that are loved by some because they are not from China and as such is ok to pay a lot of money for it.
Better not go down this road.
Al I am saying is that we might have been taken advantage of while buying branded eyepieces, and that we cannot know where they really come from since companies use shell companies to do all sorts of things.

Televue has always had Taiwan, Japan or USA stamped on their products. All good.

[scotsman328i]

I would say that for those that state that eyepieces, telescopes and astro gear aren’t in the same circles as designer purses and handbags, you are correct about that. However, Starfinder is making a valid point that ‘apples to oranges…fruit is all the same”. Astronomy products are one aspect of a larger world that has been exposed as of yesterday, and shown to cheat customers out of a lot of money over the years by promising one thing, and delivering another. We have only tipped the iceberg yesterday when the statement came out by China. My question is, how deep does this go? How much has China been manufacturing and producing for premium line products worldwide? Our Pentax, Televue, Takahashi etc etc…how much of their components were made by corporations and companies in China, India or wherever? We can’t prove it. We have seen the stamp and stickers on our products up to now stating ‘Made in USA’, ‘Made in Japan’, Made in Taiwan’…but were they? Or were they assembled with components all 100% made without doubt in those countries also? We buy ‘American’ cars that are ‘Made in the USA’ and have been proven to be assembled in America with American steel, American glass and American plastics…however…also with South American rubber, Taiwanese transistor chips, Japanese LED bulbs etc etc. This is my point. How far down the rabbit hole can we truly go, to find out exactly the manufacturing plant that ‘exquisite’ glass in that premium eyepiece was made in, or the exact manufacturing plant that dielectric mirror was made in? 

[SeattleScott]

It has been well known for decades that there is no car that is 100% made in America. This is far from breaking news.

Think of all the eyepiece shootouts that people have done. You really think that Delos are being sold for half price under a different label and no one has noticed?

Again, the astro market is microscopic compared to these other luxury goods. If I am looking to make money cloning premium brands, I’m certainly going to choose a different industry than astro gear.

Nikon is very clear that they make all theirs glass in-house. I put a link to the article about their factory in Japan where they make their optical glass. This is a known fact. Now does their statement that they certainly make all their optical components in-house leave the door open for the rubber grip ring being sourced from China. Sure. And who cares? I’m not looking through the rubber grip ring.

You suggest that some common brands out of China are the same as premium brands. Name one example you suspect might be the case? We know a lot about these brands and where they came from and what they are rebrands of. Many of the eyepieces have been bench tested and measured. We have a lot of quantitative data on this stuff, and there has never been a suggestion that Televues and other eyepieces are secretly being made in China and are also available under other labels for much less money.

[scotsman328i]

It has been well known for decades that there is no car that is 100% made in America. This is far from breaking news.

Think of all the eyepiece shootouts that people have done. You really think that Delos are being sold for half price under a different label and no one has noticed?

Again, the astro market is microscopic compared to these other luxury goods. If I am looking to make money cloning premium brands, I’m certainly going to choose a different industry than astro gear.

Nikon is very clear that they make all theirs glass in-house. I put a link to the article about their factory in Japan where they make their optical glass. This is a known fact. Now does their statement that they certainly make all their optical components in-house leave the door open for the rubber grip ring being sourced from China. Sure. And who cares? I’m not looking through the rubber grip ring.

You suggest that some common brands out of China are the same as premium brands. Name one example you suspect might be the case? We know a lot about these brands and where they came from and what they are rebrands of. Many of the eyepieces have been bench tested and measured. We have a lot of quantitative data on this stuff, and there has never been a suggestion that Televues and other eyepieces are secretly being made in China and are also available under other labels for much less money.

I totally understand all that. This is the same conversations that have been made with those in authority over products and those who purchase products expecting a product that is promised to be something by the company, and those with authority over the product. Now many products we are unsure about. I haven’t suggested that Televue eyepieces are made in China or anywhere else. Also, after the news last night from China, I honestly wouldn’t and couldn’t suspect any one particular product anymore. Nikon could be completely honest and transparent about their glass, which is great…but what about the hundreds of other companies? I’m not questioning your authority over the technical aspects released in articles, bench tests and what is claimed by companies for their products. I simply don’t know 100% what to believe anymore, especially with the breaking news last night over designer companies and their false manufacturing claims for decades now. Only time will tell as and if more information is released and proven to be false or true. 

[Mike W]

I for one trust Televue to be honest about where there products are made. As for the Japanese companies there products that are made in China are marketed as such. I believe Nikon has a glass factory in China to keep the standards up.

 

https://www.bing.com...UuYXNweC8&ntb=1

 

https://www.imaging-...i-glass-factory

Edited by Mike W, 14 April 2025 - 06:29 PM.

[scotsman328i]

I for one trust Televue to be honest about where there products are made. As for the Japanese companies there products that are made in China are marketed as such. I believe Nikon has a glass factory in China to keep the standards up.

Oh I won’t disagree with you in the slightest. Televue products have always been a benchmark for quality and lens technology. I own several Televue, Pentax and Nikon products and they are excellent. I do trust Televue as to their honesty of where products are made. I believe Televue and other companies haven’t ’watered down’ their products as many other companies have done over the years. SeattleScott is more than probably right in saying that the products from certain premium companies stand strong behind what they say they use and where they say they are manufactured. It was just pretty jarring to hear China come out with that statement about designer gear and had me concerned as for how deep this may end up going, you know? 

[Dobs O Fun]

Oh I do think the eyepieces are kind of status symbol in our small circle. And for many they are not luxury but I can name brands that are loved by some because they are not from China and as such is ok to pay a lot of money for it.
Better not go down this road.
Al I am saying is that we might have been taken advantage of while buying branded eyepieces, and that we cannot know where they really come from since companies use shell companies to do all sorts of things.

I'm not so sure. I would only buy a delite or higher-cost EP based on reviews, not name.

Unless perhaps those that do...they should speak up here and prove me wrong?

Perhaps a majority go based on reputation while others go by name, but I dont go by name....